Subject: [IBIS] EIA IBIS Open Forum Minutes (05/31/02)
From: Guy deBurgh (gdeburgh@innoveda.com)
Date: Tue Jun 04 2002 - 09:58:13 PDT
DATE: 6/04/02
SUBJECT: May 31, 2002 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes
VOTING MEMBERS AND 2002 PARTICIPANTS LIST:
Ansoft Corporation (Eric Bracken)
Apple Computer Kim Helliwell*
Applied Simulation Technology Fred Balistreri, Norio Matsui
Cadence Design Lynne Green*, Patrick dos Santos, Lance Wang
Cisco Systems Syed Huq, Abdulrahmun Rafiq, Zhiping Yang
Cypress Semiconductor (Rajesh Manapat)
IBM Greg Edlund, Pravin Patel
Innoveda John Angulo*, Guy de Burgh*, Steve Gascoigne
Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Will Hobbs,
Pete Block, Ben Silva, Tony Lewis,
Michael Mirmak*
LSI Logic [Larry Barnes], Frank Gasparik*
Mentor Graphics Bob Ross*, Ian Dodd*, Mike Donnelly,
Matt Hogan, Sherif Hammad, Tom Dagostino,
Eric Rongere, Karine Loudet
Micron Technology Randy Wolff
Mitsubishi (Tom Cao)
Molex Incorporated Gus Panella
Motorola Rick Kingen
National Semiconductor Milt Schwartz*
NEC Corporation (Akimoto Tetsuya)
North East Systems Associates (Edward Sayre)
Philips Semiconductor (D.C. Sessions)
Quantic EMC (Mike Ventham)
Siemens (& Automotive) AG Helmut Katzier, Katja Koller
Signal Integrity Software Barry Katz*, Walter Katz, Robert Moles,
Daniel Nilsson, Kevin Fisher, Steve Coe,
Wiley Gillmor, Douglas Burns, Eric Brock,
Sigrity Raj Raghuram
SiQual [Scott McMorrow], Dave Macemon, Rob Hinz
Texas Instruments Thomas Fisher, Jean-Claude Perrin
Time Domain Analysis Systems Steve Corey, Dima Smolyansky
Via Technologies (Weber Chuang)
Zuken (& Incases) Caroline Legendre
OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 2002:
3Com (& CommWorks) [Roy Leventhal], James Goshorn
Actel Prabhu Mohan
Agilent Herbert Lage
Airbus Claude Huet
Alstom Transport Luca Giacotto
Apt Software Atul Agarwal
Astrium Olivier Prieur
Avanti (Hailong Wang)
Brocade Communications Robert Badal
Compaq Shafier-ur-Rahman
EADS CCR Alix de la Villeguerin
EFM Ekkehard Miersch
EIA [Cecilia Fleming], Chris Denham*
EMC Corporation (Brian Arsenault)
Fairchild Semiconductor Adam Tambone
Force Computers Roger Sukiennik
Harman/Becker Automotive Hartmut Exler
Systems
Huawei Technologies (Jiang Xiang Zhong)
Leventhal Design and Roy Leventhal*
Communication
Matsushita (Panasonic) Atsuji Ito
National Institute of Applied Sebastian Calvet (& Motorola), Etienne
Sicard,
Science (INSA) Stephane Baffreau
Northrup (Litton) Robert Bremer
Sagam SA Quang Ngo, Matthieu Fontaines
Shindengen Elecric Mfg. Co. Tsuyoshi Horigome
Sintecs Hans Klos
STMicroelectronics Fabrice Boissieres
TDK Yoshikazu Fujishiro
Thales Saverio Lerose
Tyco Electronics (Tim Minnick)
Xilinx Susan Wu, J.L. de Long
Independent Larry Barnes
In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal
members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses.
Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets.
Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences
are as follows:
Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode
June 13, 2002 IBIS Summit Meeting in New Orleans, Louisiana
No teleconference connection
All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas
out 7 days before each Open Forum, and meeting minutes out within 7 days
after. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted
by Stephen Peters and give the reservation number and passcode.
NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.
-------------------------------- MINUTES -----------------------------------
INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM
Roy Leventhal has his own consulting business -- Leventhal Design and
Communications. His new contact information is listed at the end.
Chris Denham, who is serving as the EIAs representative to the IBIS
committee, phoned in for the first time. Chris indicated that he will
also be attending the June summit.
Kim Helliwell from Apple Computer introduced himself. Kim is serving on
the IBIS quality committee and is interested in helping the industry
produce quality IBIS models.
Michael Mirmak from Intel Corp. phoned in to participate in the BUG68
discussion.
MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT
Stephen Peters reported that we have 28 paid members, up from 26 last month.
Stephen and Bob Ross are following up on several other companies who we
expect will join. In the mean time, these companies have been moved to
the "other Participants" list.
REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S
The minutes from the May 10, 2002 teleconference were approved without
change.
The ARs were discussed during the meeting.
MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS
None.
PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES
Bob Ross reported that Syed Huq has updated the Upcoming Events page with
the additional EIA Alliance Meeting and also updated the Roster Page.
Barry Katz of SiSoft generated a press release announcing the formation
of the IBIS Quality Committee.
NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE
Roy Leventhal reported that a few web links need to be updated; he
will be doing this over the next couple of weeks.
OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES
None.
INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS
- IEC 62014-3 (ICEM) Integrated Circuit Electromagnetic Model Proposal
(formerly, IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation) - Bob Ross reported
that he sent some comments on the Cookbook and Report document. Stephen
Peters still needs to do a review.
- JEDEC JC-16 - Modeling and Testing - No report.
- T10, Project 1414-DT - SCSI Signal Modeling (a Technical Committee of
the National Committee for Information Technology (NCITS)) - No Report.
DESIGN AUTOMATION CONFERENCE 2002 IBIS SUMMIT MEETING PLANNING
Bob Ross reported that the IBIS Summit Meeting at the Design Automation
Conference (DAC2002) will be held on Thursday, June 13, 2002 at the
Hilton Hotel in New Orleans, next to the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center
where DAC2002 is held. The IBIS meeting is planned all day. This is the
annual meeting which includes elections of IBIS officers for the 2002-2003
term.
Guy de Burgh is handling the registration and has sent out a two more calls
for signup and presentations notices to the reflectors. The EIA IBIS Open
Forum funds this meeting from dues payments and is providing a hot lunch for
attendees. Bob noted that we typically get 25 to 30 people attending
this summit meeting. Bob estimates that approximately 17 so far based on
people who have indicated that they are planning to attend.
Bob reported some updated titles:
"IBIS Annual Report", Stephen Peters, Intel Corporation
"IBIS Quality Checklist", Barry Katz, SiSoft
"IBIS Models Today, Their Parameters and Their Accuracy,
Eckhard Lenski, Siemens
"Multi-Lingual Modeling Applications", Bob Ross, Mentor Graphics
"Connector Modeling Experience", Atsuji Ito,
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. (Panasonic)
"IBIS Connector Specification", Stephen Peters, Intel Corp.
"Buffer Impedance and Quality Issues", Luca Giacotto, Alstom Transport
Several other presentations are pending. The Agenda will be sent next week
by June 6, 2002.
Stephen Peters reported that all officers, except Bob Ross, listed at the
end are candidates for their existing positions. Lynne Green is a
candidate for the Vice-Chair position. Another member is also considering
a nomination to the vice-chair position. Other nominations and candidates
are welcome. Notify Stephen Peters or Guy de Burgh of your interest or
nomination. Nominations will also be accepted at the meeting. Notify
Guy de Burgh to record a vote if you cannot attend the meeting.
FUTURE IBIS SUMMIT MEETINGS
Stephen Peters reported that we are planning two meetings. We may have to
decide what to do in each. The meeting details are as follows:
As previously reported, the PCB East Conference has moved from mid
September to October 14-18 in Boxborough, Massachusetts in the Boxborough
Holiday Inn where the first IBIS User's Group and one IBIS Summit Meeting
were held. North East Systems Associates (NESA) have offered to host the
IBIS Summit meeting on their site on Thursday, October 17, 2002. This
should be more convenient, both for attending the PCB Conference East and
for attendance by the local community.
Also, we still are planning an IBIS Summit meeting in Vancouver, British
Columbia on Thursday, September 12, 2002 along with other EIA groups such
as the Compact Modeling Council, JEDEC, etc. as a joint EIA meeting.
People can attend meetings in other organizations of interest. We no longer
need to consider the joint IBIS meeting held simultaneously at two
locations.
Bob Ross mentioned that funding details for the Vancouver British Columbia
meeting still need to be worked out. Both John Angulo and Lynne Green
indicated that they are planning on attending the Vancouver meeting. Bob
mentioned that we may want to present an IBIS tutorial to interested groups.
IBIS QUALITY COMMITTEE
Barry Katz reported that meetings were held on May 14 and 28, 2002. The
committee is going through the various parts of the IBIS data set (I-V
and V-T tables), compiling a checklist as well as a written document.
Barry hope to have the checklist and document completed in time for the
PCB East IBIS summit. The next quality committee meeting will be held
June 18, 2002.
IBIS OPEN SOURCE PARSER PROPOSAL DISCUSSION
Kim Helliwell summarized the advantages and disadvantages of using an open
source model for IBIS golden parser development and maintenance. In brief,
with open source there are more pairs of eyes to look at code. Open source
makes it possible to fix bugs in a more timely manner, and having many
developers also potentially enables new OS ports. A drawback to using an
open source model is the risk of someone creating a rival parser, but this
risk is minimized by having the IBIS committee in control of the official
IBIS spec. Kim noted that while the gatekeeper position involves more time
than he had first estimated, the effort can be spread among several
different individuals. On the GNU Public License (GPL) issue, Kim noted
that the IBIS committee can still sell unrestricted licenses that will allow
EDA companies to incorporate the parser source code into their commercial
products.
In a response to a question from Bob Ross, Barry Katz indicated that the
latest proposal document will be uploaded to IBIS quality committee web
site:
http://www.sisoft.com/ibis-quality/docs/
Bob Ross again mentioned his concern that by making the IBIS parser source
code open interested companies may not be willing to directly fund parser
development, thus undercutting the current funding mechanism. Stephen
Peters concurred, and he also reiterated his belief that the gatekeeper(s)
must be committed to a stable and long term relationship with the IBIS Open
Forum. Finally, Bob noted that the IBIS committee does not have the
resources to verify that all companies are in compliance with a Gnu Public
License (GPL).
Lynne Green asked if adopting an open source model means that we would move
from bug fixes only updates (dot releases) to releasing new versions of the
parser every time a bird was passed. No consensus was reached, and further
discussion on this and the licensing question will continue at the June
summit.
IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION
Bob Ross reported no new models.
MAJORDOMO UPDATE
John Angulo reported no new activity.
NEW ADMINISTRATIVE ISSUES
None.
IBIS VERSION 4.0/BIRD75 DISCUSSION
Stephen Peters opened the discussion by recapping some of what was discussed
at the previous meeting. In order to address the issue of what impact
BIRD75 may have on EDA vendors willingness to implement the currently passed
BIRDS, Arpad Muranyi proposed preparing a list of potential
BIRDS that may be superseded by BIRD75. (Note: this list has been posted
to the IBIS reflector for discussion).
Bob Ross remarked that we cannot re-ballot or remove any of the previously
accepted BIRDS until BIRD75 is finalized. Stephen Peters noted also that
voting for an IBIS 4.0 version then removing functionality in a subsequent
IBIS 4.1 could very well leave "orphan models", as well as EDA tool vendors
with useless development code. However, Lynne Green pointed out that
implementing both 4.0 and then BIRD 75 could delay tool implementation.
This evolved into a long discussion on what the impact of various scenarios
may have the on EDA tool vendors.
Stephen is leaning towards passing IBIS 4.0 as is, then addressing BIRD75
as a high priority. We agreed to continue this discussion at the June
summit.
IBIS CONNECTOR & FUTURES GROUP REPORT
Stephen Peters reported that combined Futures and Connector group meetings
were held on May 16 and again on May 23, 2002. The next meeting is
scheduled for June 6, 2002. Stephen stated that the ICM0994 specification
in now available on the IBIS web site under the "Connector Info" link and
under:
http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/connector/
Stephen also noted that the IBIS codification of the Touchstone(r) data
format has received final approval from Agilent. Version 1.1 of the
Touchstone data format specification is also available on the IBIS web
site under the "Connector Info" link mentioned above.
The committee is working on a final technical and editorial edit of the
document before making a draft version available to the IBIS Open Forum.
Editing sessions continue, and Stephen expects the draft document to be
available for discussion at the upcoming June 2002 IBIS Summit meeting.
BIRD74 - EMI Parameters
Guy de Burgh was unable to send out an updated BIRD 74.1 due to e-mail
problems. Discussion of BIRD74 was postponed.
BIRD75.1 - Multi-Lingual Modeling IBIS Modeling Support
Bob Ross reported that Arpad Muranyi provided a list of valuable comments
on BIRD75.1. He already received a response on the IBIS reflector from
Chris Reid. Bob plans to respond and continue the discussion on the IBIS
reflectors rather than take up too much time for detailed technical
discussions.
However, Bob did comment that [External Model] and [External Circuit] had
more differences than noted by Arpad that justified using separate keywords.
The new differences include:
[External Model] is always positioned under [Model], whereas [External
Circuit] is a general circuit.
[External Model] inherits the Model_name pf [Model] whereas [External
Circuit] has a name for an argument.
[External Model] is used with predefined signals to retain compatible
functionality with [Model] in IBIS, whereas [External Circuit] does not
need any predefined signal names. The A_D and D_A extensions are just a
and extension of this for [External Model].
Bob noted that more technical discussion will be conducted on the IBIS
reflector.
IBISCHK3 & BUG TRACKING STATUS
Bob Ross reported that Atul Agarwal has addressed BUG57-67. Atul had some
question on BUG57 and BUG63, and the rest have been fixed. We are awaiting
the final ibischk3.2.9 software.
- BUG68 False Messages with Repeated Voltages
Bob Ross reported that BUG68 regarding false Error and Warning messages
cause by very close voltage values had been classified. However, we did
decide how to resolve BUG68. Arpad Muranyi stated that the internal tool
that caused the bad test case had been fixed. Bob suggested not fixing
BUG68 since it might require a lot a work for a rare problem. Besides,
some incorrect Error and Warning messages still signify a problem. Arpad
suggested that Michael Mirmak, author of BUG68, check to see the numerical
sensitivity of false messages before deciding to close out BUG68.
Bob noted that Michael Mirmak did further checking and has determined
that voltage differences less than 1e-5 are detected as equal voltages.
This was discussed further. We believe that this might be hard coded
in the ibischk3 parser. If so, we probably want to set a tighter limit
(e.g. 1e-6 or less). We might also want to check the algorithm to try
to fix some ungraceful and irrelevant warnings and errors if the limit
is set. We need to investigate further the difficulty and scope of the
work before committing to when this will be fixed.
So BUG68 is resolved to be fixed at the next release with details of the
fix to be determined after investigation. We will decide a new hardcoded
limit if such a hard coded limit exists. We will investigate the
algorithm
to determine if some irrelevant warnings and errors can be removed.
NEXT MEETING:
The next meeting will be a face to face IBIS summit on June 13 in New
Orleans. No teleconference is planned. The next teleconference meeting
will be June 28, 2002 from 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time.
============================================================================
NOTES
IBIS CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-1831
stephen.peters@intel.com
Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation
M/S JF4-215
2111 NE 25th Ave.
Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961
VICE CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897
bob_ross@mentor.com
Modeling Engineer, Mentor Graphics
8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070
SECRETARY: Guy de Burgh (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
gdeburgh@innoveda.com
Senior Manager, Innoveda
1369 Del Norte Rd.
Camarillo, CA 93010-8437
LIBRARIAN: Roy Leventhal (847) 590-9398
roy.leventhal@ieee.org
Consultant, Leventhal Design and Communications
1924 North Burke Drive
Arlington Heights, Illinois 60004
WEBMASTER: Syed Huq (408) 525-3399, Fax: (408) 526-5504
shuq@cisco.com
Manager, Hardware Engineering, Cisco Systems
170 West Tasman Drive
San Jose, CA 95134-1706
POSTMASTER: John Angulo (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008
jangulo@innoveda.com
Development Engineer, Innoveda
14715 N.E. 95th Street, Suite 200
Redmond, WA 98052
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