RE: [IBIS] How we can model startup time in IBIS.

From: Akhilesh CHANDRA <akhilesh.chandra_at_.....>
Date: Tue May 22 2007 - 01:37:40 PDT
Hello Todd,

  Thanx for this explanation. Now my doubt is clear.

Regards
Akhilesh

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ibis@server.eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis@server.eda.org] On Behalf
Of Todd Westerhoff
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 1:26 AM
To: ibis@server.eda-stds.org
Subject: RE: [IBIS] How we can model startup time in IBIS.

Akhilesh,

My apologies for the delay in reply.

This is a tough one to explain succinctly - but the basic idea is that in
order to close timing at a system level, you use signal integrity analysis
to obtain an accurate prediction of the interconnect delay from point A (the
driver) to point B (the receiver) in a system.

The output delay for a component is based on measuring the time it takes the
output to reach a specific voltage (Vmeas) into a specified loading
condition (the so-called "reference load").  Standard SI practice is to
simulate the output (with the package model) into the standard load and
record the time when the output voltage reaches Vmeas.  XTK calls this
parameter Time_to_VM, Cadence calls it buffer delay, SiSoft calls it the
standard load delay ... they're all different names for the same thing.
This delay gets subtracted from the time an input reaches the switching
voltage in the simulated network for your system.

Thus, there are two simulations performed:

1) The output into the reference load
2) The actual network being modeled

The delay when the output reaches Vmeas is recorded in (1).  The time when
the input reaches switching voltage is noted and the delay measured in (1)
is subtracted from that value to obtain the interconnect delay plugged back
into the static timing model.

Here's the point - the same output buffer model is used for (1) and (2).
Any "dead time" in the IBIS model's V/T curves - whether it's a 300ps delay
through the buffer, a 3ns startup time, or 50ps of extra delay added just
for kicks  - is cancelled out during the interconnect delay measurement
(what I called "normalization").  This is why I say time 0 in an IBIS model
is arbitrary, because any initial delay in a V-T curve get cancelled out.

The problem you were having goes to what is commonly called "overclocking",
where the simulator needs to change the output state before the end of the
V-T curve is reached.  This is an area where different simulators behave
differently, and should be avoided.  That's the reason I advocate not
modeling the startup time of your device in the IBIS V/T curve.  This is
also the reason some tools "strip" dead time from the front of IBIS V/T
curves ... to avoid the ambiguities associated with overclocking.

I hope this helps.  There is a lot of depth to this particular topic - I
apologize that I don't have the time at the moment to find and point out
some of the other coverage of this topic you can find on-line.

Todd. 

Todd Westerhoff
VP, Software Products
SiSoft
6 Clock Tower Place, Suite 250
Maynard, MA  01754
(978) 461-0449 x24
twesterh@sisoft.com
www.sisoft.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Akhilesh CHANDRA [mailto:akhilesh.chandra@st.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 6:06 AM
To: 'Todd Westerhoff'; ibis@eda-stds.org
Cc: Akhilesh CHANDRA
Subject: RE: [IBIS] How we can model startup time in IBIS.

 hello Todd,

  Thanx for this important info. I have one doubt.

  According to paragraph 3 "IBIS simulations are always compared to a
simulation of a "reference load", because the comparison to the standard
load simulation normalizes out the start time of the model".

  In my case cell delay is 300ps while it's startup time is 3ns. How it's
normalizes when I use standard load. 

Regards
Akhilesh

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ibis@server.eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis@server.eda.org] On Behalf
Of Todd Westerhoff
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 6:48 PM
To: ibis@server.eda-stds.org
Subject: RE: [IBIS] How we can model startup time in IBIS.

Akhilesh,

If you or your customers are correlating simulation results in IBIS to a
transistor level equivalent, it's important to understand that "time 0" in
an IBIS model is arbitrary.  There's no guarantee that an IBIS and
transistor model simulated side by side will produce outputs at the same
time, and "shifting" the IBIS result in time to get correlation is
completely legal.

Bonnie's article made this same point.  She mentioned that a transistor
model includes the delay through the buffer, while the IBIS model represents
the output behavior but not necessarily the model's intrinsic delay.

This is the reason IBIS simulations are always compared to a simulation of a
"reference load", because the comparison to the standard load simulation
normalizes out the start time of the model.  

If you're looking to use SI simulations to derive an interconnect delay for
plugging back into a timing analysis, you should ALWAYS be normalizing your
SI simulations to a reference load.  The startup time of the model gets
subtracted out in this case, and you should end up with the same number for
the interconnect delay whether you use the transistor or IBIS model.  

Some would argue that transistor level simulations don't need to be
normalized; I would disagree.  It's true that you can define specific timing
and SI strategies where normalization of transistor level SI simulations
isn't required; but most people aren't running analysis under those
conditions.

Todd.

Todd Westerhoff
VP, Software Products
SiSoft
6 Clock Tower Place, Suite 250
Maynard, MA  01754
(978) 461-0449 x24
twesterh@sisoft.com
www.sisoft.com

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ibis@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis@eda.org] On Behalf Of Akhilesh
CHANDRA
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 1:53 AM
To: 'Dunbar, Tony'; ibis@eda-stds.org
Cc: Akhilesh CHANDRA
Subject: RE: [IBIS] How we can model startup time in IBIS.

Hello Tony,

  Thanx for your reply. Initial delay is not important for SI simulations
but if it's missing in our model then it's difficult to match spice and IBIS
results also few customers  use these models for delay calculation if I
don't support this startup time then customer have only 300ps delay while in
silicon it's 3.3ns. 

Regards
Akhilesh

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ibis@server.eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis@server.eda.org] On Behalf
Of Dunbar, Tony
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 10:22 PM
To: ibis@server.eda-stds.org
Subject: RE: [IBIS] How we can model startup time in IBIS.

Hi Akhilesh,

I've pondered this for a little while and all I can come up with is to ask
why is this an important or even relevant functional detail to be included
in a signal integrity simulation, presuming it is a signal integrity
simulation you are wanting to do?

An "initial delay" can be incorporated into the stimulus of some SI
simulators but that is really intended to provide for driver-to-driver skew,
whereas your brief description refers to "startup".

Regards,
Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ibis@server.eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis@server.eda.org] On Behalf
Of Akhilesh CHANDRA
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:18 AM
To: ibis@server.eda-stds.org
Cc: Akhilesh CHANDRA
Subject: [IBIS] How we can model startup time in IBIS.

 

Hello Experts,

  I am doing IBIS model of an IO operating at 800MHZ frequency. It have
startup time of 3nsec. After 3ns design gives output of 800mhz frequency. If
I model this time in waveform database of IBIS models the I have over
clocking issue and design is not work at this high frequency. Can you help
me to model this startup time. Is anyone make IBIS model of such designs.

Regards
Akhilesh


--
This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org 
|with the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
|
|  help
|  subscribe   ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  subscribe   ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|
|or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org.
|
|IBIS reflector archives exist under:
|
|  http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent 
| http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent
|  http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/         E-mail since 1993

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org 
|with the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
|
|  help
|  subscribe   ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  subscribe   ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|
|or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org.
|
|IBIS reflector archives exist under:
|
|  http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent 
| http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent
|  http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/         E-mail since 1993


--
This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org 
|with the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
|
|  help
|  subscribe   ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  subscribe   ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|
|or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org.
|
|IBIS reflector archives exist under:
|
|  http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent  
| http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent
|  http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/         E-mail since 1993


--
This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org 
|with the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
|
|  help
|  subscribe   ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  subscribe   ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|
|or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org.
|
|IBIS reflector archives exist under:
|
|  http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent  
| http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent
|  http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/         E-mail since 1993



-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org
|with the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
|
|  help
|  subscribe   ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  subscribe   ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|
|or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org.
|
|IBIS reflector archives exist under:
|
|  http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent
|  http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent
|  http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/         E-mail since 1993


-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org
|with the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
|
|  help
|  subscribe   ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  subscribe   ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis       <optional e-mail address, if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|
|or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org.
|
|IBIS reflector archives exist under:
|
|  http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent
|  http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent
|  http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/         E-mail since 1993
Received on Tue May 22 01:39:32 2007

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Tue May 22 2007 - 01:40:41 PDT