RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: [IBIS] RE: IBIS model behavior between Vinh and Vinl input

From: Muranyi, Arpad <Arpad_Muranyi_at_.....>
Date: Mon Jan 07 2008 - 09:12:16 PST
Akilesh,

I would also like to bring your attention to the other IBIS
receiver parameters which were added to the IBIS specification
for similar reasons you are trying to achieve, tightening
the rules so better timings could be achieved, and to be able
to describe IBIS models for more elaborate bus specifications,
such as DDR.  Please look at the [Receiver Thresholds] and
the [Model Spec] keywords and their parameters.

Arpad
===============================================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Akhilesh CHANDRA [mailto:akhilesh.chandra@st.com] 
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 4:27 AM
To: Muranyi, Arpad; ibis@server.eda-stds.org;
owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org; ibis-users@server.eda.org
Cc: Akhilesh CHANDRA
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: [IBIS] RE: IBIS model behavior between
Vinh and Vinl input

Hello Arpad.

  I am agree with you TTL standard say 0.8V and 2.0V but we never use
these
values in our IBIS models. We run the simulation and find out what
exactly
vinh and Vinl of the design at particular PVT(Process, Voltage and
Temperature) and use these values in our models. I don't think any IBIS
model manufacturer use Vinh and Vinl values from specs. Spec say a
general
definition that must be satisfied at all cross corners. One IBIS model
have
it's own process voltage and temperature and all the parameter satisfied
only at that PVT.

  As I understood from your statement if any IBIS model manufacturer use
vinh and Vinl values from spec then he may have false X definition in
his
simulation means In this case at few PVT, spice and IBIS show different
threshold results. In my view if we use spec threshold values then there
is
always a risk to align with spice threshold result. We should extract
threshold values at required PVT and use in our model and there is no
risk.

Regards
Akhilesh

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ibis@server.eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis@server.eda.org] On
Behalf
Of Muranyi, Arpad
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 11:03 PM
To: ibis@server.eda-stds.org; owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org;
ibis-users@server.eda.org
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: [IBIS] RE: IBIS model behavior between
Vinh
and Vinl input

Akilesh,

Your first statement is incorrect.  I have seen specs which say Vinh =
Vcc -
a_value, for example.  But even in the old TTL says, the famous 0.8 and
2.0
numbers were not considered a to be a representation of a given
combination
of process, temperature, supply voltage, etc... as far as I remember it
was
a spec you have to satisfy at all conditions.  Once again, these values
have
nothing to do with what the chip does, these numbers are the
requirements
beyond which it is not guaranteed to work correctly.  Think of it as a
speed
limit sign on the street.  Does it mean that your car cannot go any
faster?
No, it means you should not drive it faster which has nothing to do with
the
characteristics of your car's engine, suspension, etc...

Arpad
===============================================================



-----Original Message-----
From: Akhilesh CHANDRA [mailto:akhilesh.chandra@st.com]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 2:46 AM
To: tom@teraspeed.com; Muranyi, Arpad; ibis@server.eda-stds.org;
owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org; ibis-users@server.eda.org
Cc: Akhilesh CHANDRA
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: [IBIS] RE: IBIS model behavior between
Vinh
and Vinl input


  All the manufacturer extract the Vinh and vinl values at one process,
voltage and temperature. I don't think if we extract vinh-vinl with
spice
simulation at one process voltage temperature then it have different
value
in the manufacturing process. 

  Today few IBIS simulator show X(0.5V) between reference values while I
don't see X in the real circuit design. It show something is wrong . I
am
agree with you all the designs shouldn't confirm the arbitrarily
designated
state but now we will need to think what is the correct behavior of IBIS
model between reference values.

Regards
Akhilesh
   

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Dagostino [mailto:tom@teraspeed.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 3:04 PM
To: 'Akhilesh CHANDRA'; 'Muranyi, Arpad'; ibis@server.eda-stds.org;
owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org; ibis-users@server.eda.org
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: [IBIS] RE: IBIS model behavior between
Vinh
and Vinl input

Be careful.  IBIS uses the manufacturer's specified Vinh and Vinl.  They
are
the points where the part is guaranteed to switch.  As Arpad points out
the
actual switching point could be different and very well changes with
temperature, voltage and process though modern manufacturing processes
make
the actual switching points more consistent from part to part.  Timing
should be measured to the points that are in the datasheet.

But having all simulators default to some arbitrary state when the input
is
between the reference levels is setting the user up for failure.  People
tend to assume if the simulator says X, X is real.  If they don't see X
in
the real circuit then there is something wrong.  Not all parts will
conform
to some arbitrarily designated state.

Digital parts are not made to operate with their inputs between Vinh and
Vinl.  Most parts have specifications that state the minimum slew rate
(input risetime/falltime) as the input to the part transitions between
the
two reference levels.  The actual output of an input buffer for a given
input voltage between Vinl and Vinh will change depending on the
internal
noise of the IC, the noise on the input, process, temperature, voltage,
phase of the moon, crosstalk, etc.

Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed(R) Labs
13610 SW Harness Lane
Beaverton, OR 97008
503-430-1065
503-430-1285 FAX
tom@teraspeed.com
www.teraspeed.com

Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
121 North River Drive
Narragansett, RI 02882
401-284-1827 


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ibis@server.eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis@server.eda.org] On
Behalf
Of Akhilesh CHANDRA
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 12:23 AM
To: 'Muranyi, Arpad'; ibis@server.eda-stds.org;
owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org; ibis-users@server.eda.org
Cc: Akhilesh CHANDRA
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: [IBIS] RE: IBIS model behaviour between
Vinh
and Vinl input

Hello Arpad,

  I got your point. As I understood IBIS model of a receiver is
measurement
model. it compare the incoming waveforms against Vinh and Vinl.  If it
is
above Vinh, we have a logic "1" ("true"), if it is below Vinl, we have a
logic "0" ("false") and between vinh and vinl it have logic X.

  IBIS specs don't define that how logic X represent in IBIS simulation,
due
to this different simulator give different behavior for X. In my view we
will need to define how logic X represent in IBIS model simulation. It
will
help to align all the simulator results.

Regards
Akhilesh

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org
[mailto:owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org] On Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 12:34 PM
To: ibis@server.eda-stds.org; owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org;
ibis-users@server.eda.org
Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: [IBIS] RE: IBIS model behaviour between Vinh
and
Vinl input

Akilesh,

I don't think you understood my previous answer.  On the other hand, I
am
not sure I understand everything you say either, so I will attempt to
describe it once again.  Let me know if I didn't answer your question,
but
please be a little more crisp with your words, because I have a hard
time to
understand what you are writing.

A SPICE receiver model will give you a WAVEFORM on its output.
This waveform will be a smooth waveform.  It will switch states when the
input goes over the threshold value of the input amplifier.
This threshold voltage is not the same as the IBIS Vinh and Vinl
parameters.
In the good old 5 volt days the receiver could switch a few hundred mV
around 1.5 volts, while the TTL specification was 0.8 and 2.0 volts for
Vinl
and Vinh.  The specification was usually set to a wider range than the
actual threshold for various reasons.

In IBIS we don't model the actual threshold behavior of the receiver.
(You could if you used [External Model], but that is a different story).
The IBIS receiver is really nothing more than a measurement model.  It
doesn't simulate the receiver's actual reactions to the incoming
waveform,
and most importantly it doesn't give you an analog waveform that
resembles
the output waveform of the actual receiver.

You can consider the output of the IBIS receiver as a logic output of an
ideal comparator, comparing the incoming waveforms against Vinh and
Vinl.
If it is above Vinh, you get a logic "1" ("true"), if it is below Vinl,
you
get a logic "0" ("false").  The transition is abrupt, theoretically with
a
perfectly vertical edge.  Do not expect to see a smooth waveform here.

Since most IBIS simulators represent the output of a receiver as a
waveform,
you will most likely get a 0 volt or a 1 volt signal instead of a logic
"true" or "false".  But the meaning is the same.

The remaining question is what should the output of the receiver be when
the
input waveform to the receiver is between Vinh and Vinl.
The problem is that the IBIS specification doesn't describe this in
great
detail.  If we go by the example that is in the IBIS spec, where the
comments say the following:

Vinl = 0.8V | Input logic "low" DC voltage, if any Vinh = 2.0V | Input
logic
"high" DC voltage, if any

we could conclude that anything in-between Vinh and Vinl is neither
logic
"high" or "low", i.e. it is an undetermined state "X".

I have seen implementations where the output of the receiver would
switch
when the waveform goes above Vinh on a rising edge, and goes below Vinl
on a
falling edge.  This gives you a hystersis type result which is not
necessarily correct, because the receiver may lose its valid logic
output as
soon as the input waveform enters the region between Vinh and Vinl.  I
personally prefer the undetermined state on the output of the receiver
"X".
But how can this be represented in an analog simulator which gives us a
1 or
0 volt output?  In that case I would suggest that the receiver's output
should go to 0.5 volt when the input waveform is between Vinh and Vinl,
indicating that this is the undetermined condition "X".

I hope this helps,

Arpad
=======================================================================



-----Original Message-----
From: Akhilesh CHANDRA [mailto:akhilesh.chandra@st.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 9:45 PM
To: Muranyi, Arpad; ibis@server.eda-stds.org;
owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org; ibis-users@server.eda.org
Cc: Akhilesh CHANDRA
Subject: RE: [IBIS] RE: IBIS model behaviour between Vinh and Vinl input

Hello Arped, 

    Thanx for your reply. In the design spec output can't switch between
vinh and vinl values. And we run simulation with spice then design
behave
same way and give smooth transition as the device does. I am using ELDO
as
simulator to run the IBIS simulation it show horizontal line (other
simulator show different result) between vinh and vinl values it shows
mismatch between IBIS and spice behavior. Do you think the behavior of
simulator is correct.

   In my view we will need to define IBIS behavior between vinh and vinl
values otherwise each EDA vendor do it by his own algorithm and it
create
confusion at the application end.

Regards
Akhilesh

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ibis@server.eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis@server.eda.org] On
Behalf
Of Muranyi, Arpad
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 9:47 PM
To: ibis@server.eda-stds.org; owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org;
ibis-users@server.eda.org
Subject: [IBIS] RE: IBIS model behaviour between Vinh and Vinl input

Akilesh,

A SPICE model does what the device does (more or less).

An IBIS model's Vinh and Vinl does what the input specification tells
you
when you look at a SPICE waveform and try to decide whether the waveform
you
got was good enough to consider logic high or logic low.  IBIS does not
describe how the device behaves between Vinh and Vinl.

Arpad
================================================================= 

-----Original Message-----
From: Akhilesh CHANDRA [mailto:akhilesh.chandra@st.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 4:22 AM
To: ibis@server.eda-stds.org; Muranyi, Arpad;
owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org; ibis-users@server.eda.org
Cc: 'akhilesh chandra'
Subject: IBIS model behaviour between Vinh and Vinl input


 


 Hello Experts,

   I am using IBIS model of hysterics cell. In my model Vinh and Vinl
have
different values as per design specs. When I run it with one of the
simulator then it show output at constant voltage(VDDE/2) between Vinh
and
vinl inputs, while spice show continuous behavior with same simulator so
there is big mismatch between IBIS and spice result.
   Can anyone explain us what IBIS standard say about output behavior
between Vinh and Vinl input values.

Regards
Akhilesh



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Received on Mon Jan 7 09:14:08 2008

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