DATE: August 29, 1995 SUBJECT: 8/25/95 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes VOTING MEMBERS: AT&T Global Info Solutions Dave Moxley* Cadence Design Sandeep Khanna, C. Kumar Contec CAE, Ltd. Dileep Divekar* HyperLynx Kellee Crisafulli IBM Jay Diepenbrock INCASES Werner Rissiek, Olaf Rethmeier* Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Will Hobbs*, Arpad Muranyi*, Derrick Duehren Interconnectix, Inc. Bob Ross* Meta-Software Les Spruiell, Mei Wong, You-Pang Wei, John Sliney Motorola Ron Werner National Semiconductor Syed Huq*, Atul Agarwal, Cheng-Yang Kao NEC Hiroshi Matsumoto, Eldar Yazbashevz* Quad Design Jon Powell Quantic Labs Mike Ventham Texas Instruments Roger Cline, Ben Andresen Thomson-CSF/SCTF Jean LeBrun UniCAD Canada Ltd. Stephen Lum VLSI Technology Dick Ulmer*, Sung Oh* Zuken-Redac John Berrie OTHER PARTICIPANTS: ARPA Randy Harr Anacad Steffen Rochel Ansoft Henri Maramis Atmel Corporation Dan Terry Cadlab Ralf Bruning Digital Equipment Corp. Barry Katz EIA Patti Rusher High Design Technology Michael Smith, Dr. Ing. Cosso Hewlett Packard Tom Langdorf, Karl Kachigan, Henry Wu Integrated Silicon Systems Eric Bracken Intergraph Ian Dodd, David Wiens, Walter Katz IntuSoft Charles Hymowitz LSI Logic Corp. Satish Pratadneni Mentor Graphics Ravender Goyal, Greg Doyle Micron Technology Brian Johnson MicroSim Arthur Wong North Carolina State U. Steve Lipa, Michael Steer OptEM Engineering, Inc. Benny Leveille, Ken Ehn Pacific Numerix Paul K. U. Wang Symmetry Martin Walker Synopsys, Logic Modeling G. Bill Lattin Univ. of Illinois, Urbana Raj Mittra Zeelan Technology George Opsahl, Hiro Moriyasu (Independent) Bob Ward In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as follows: Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode 9/15/95 (916) 356-9200 1-16347 127231 10/6/95 (303)-633-2197 1-308636 No pass code All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas out 7 days before each open forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode. NOTE: "AR" = Action Required. -------------------------------- MINUTES ------------------------------------- INTRODUCTIONS, ANNOUNCEMENTS Eldar Yazbashevz from NEC joined us as an interested user of IBIS models. EIA MEMBERSHIP AND TREASURER'S REPORT No Treasurer's report was available. There is some off-line discussion regarding whether additional money has been sent from Anacad and received by EIA for Anacad to become a voting member. MINUTES REPORT, MISC. Minutes of 8/11/95 corrections: Dave Moxeley of ATT attended. Intel "Chipsets" library has been updated. The Passcode number was incorrect for the 8/25/95 meeting on the minutes, and we hope that did not cause any problems. It was correct on the agenda. PRESS UPDATES None. NEW MODELS None. OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES Possible discussions are Models under NDA, the Roadmap project and the ground plane analysis issue, all which have been discussed on the reflector. EIA IBIS RATIFICATION (VOTES) The letter ballot closed as of August 22, 1995. There were no negative ballots. A draft Version 2.1 revision was posted with the already approved changes per the August 11, 1995 meeting. Most of the meeting was devoted to the Version 2.1 comments and revision. Will Hobbs of Intel supplied some grammatical and spelling corrections based on a technical writer review: Pg. 3, line 38: Change "super sets" to "supersets. Pg. 5, line 28: Change "can NOT" to "CANNOT". Pg. 23, line 17: Change "can not" to "cannot". On the revised draft, Remove the redundant "in" in the BIRD29.2 inclusion. Dave Moxley provided these spelling corrections: Pg. 8, line 48: Change "forth" to "fourth". Pg. 10, line 23: Change "forth" to "fourth". The proposed response to Intel's editorial comments that were sent on the reflector were approved by Membership vote. AR - Bob Ross send the response to Intel and copy EIA. Sung-Ki Min of Integrated Device Technology, Inc. submitted comments and the response to IDT, Inc. was discussed. The main issue was how to describe the fact that IBIS does take into account the package parameters for ground and power pins without creating a cluttered figure. After much discussion, this response was proposed: "Recommendation for SP3527 (IBIS) It is recommended that high frequency effects be modeled into IBIS. - The Modeling of transmission line effect at the I/O. - Lead inductances should be modeled in the power and the ground to model L*(di/dt) effect at the output (Figure in page 18). Thank you." IDT, Inc.: Comment 1 Type of Comment: Editorial Reference: None Suggested Change: It is recommended that high frequency effects be modeled into IBIS. - The Modeling of transmission line effect at the I/O. Response: No change will be made. Reason: Transmission line effects in packages are being considered and actively discussed for the next future extension of IBIS. Buffer Issue Resolution Document No. 28.2 (BIRD28.2) is the current proposal. Your participation in this work is welcomed. IDT, Inc.: Comment 2 Type of Comment: Editorial Reference: Terminator model figure on page 18. Suggested Change: It is recommended that high frequency effects be modeled into IBIS. - Lead inductances should be modeled in the power and the ground to model L*(di/dt) effect at the output (Figure in page 18). Response: On the figure the "[Package] Keyword Sub-parameters" will be changed to "[Package] Keyword Sub-parameters *" and a note at the bottom will be added: "* Note: More advanced package parameters are available within this standard, including more detailed power and ground net descriptions. Reason: You have a valid concern regarding the reference model and its relationship to ground and power inductances. The IBIS format actually supports a variety of package models of increasing detail. To describe them in detail in a figure would detract from the main point showing the terminator model elements. Often for terminator elements shown in the figure on page 18, the ground and power package elements are not needed. The terminator values are already dominant for the frequency range of interest. So the picture remains valid. However, a note is added to convey that the application and usage of IBIS models can be extended to a higher level of detail based on simulator functionality and the analysis being addressed. In general the [Pin Mapping] keyword is available to describe the power and ground L*(di/dt) effects for a particular set of buffer or terminator models. The above response was approved by Membership vote. AR - Will Hobbs send the response to Integrated Device Technology and copy EIA. Michael G. Wahl of the University of Siegen submitted some comments. The response to University of Siegen was discussed. Will checked with Jeanne Warner of EIA and verified that we had all of the documents that EIA had received. The proposed response to the University of Siegen comments was: "General Comment: * An Information Model in Express would make the introduction of the Standard to the STEP activitiy easier. * I have missed an extended example. * Short Remarks on pages: 6, 7, 12" University of Siegen: Comment 1 Type of Comment: Editorial Reference: None Suggested Change: * An Information Model in Express would make the introduction of the Standard to the STEP activitiy easier. Response: No change will be made. Reason: We will consider your suggestion for future IBIS activity. University of Siegen: Comment 2 Type of Comment: Editorial Reference: None Suggested Change: * I have missed an extended example. Response: No change will be made. Reason: IBIS models are publically available to serve as examples in the /pub/ibis/models directory on vhdl.org. An information package is attached. University of Siegen: Comment 3 Type of Comment: Editorial Reference: Pages 6, 7, 12 Suggested Change: * Short Remarks on pages: 6, 7, 12 Response: No change will be made. Reason: We did not receive the pages with remarks. We cannot consider these remarks at this time. The above response was approved by Membership vote. AR - Will Hobbs send the response to Integrated Device Technology and copy EIA. AR - Will Hobbs submit copies of previous responses to EIA. AR - Bob Ross roll the changes into a revised Version 2.1 Specification. Send changes to the reflector by September 1, 1995. Send changes to EIA. The Version 2.1 document was put to a vote with the grammar and spelling changes and with the letter ballot changes above. It was approved by Membership vote. Will Hobbs indicated that this is a major milestone. The next step is to submit these comments and results to EIA and work with them toward final ratification of EIA-656. Also, EIA will generate a press release. AR - Will Hobbs communicate with EIA on the next step to final ratification of EIA-656 and a press release. WEB UPDATE Will Hobbs stated that he can submit IBIS information internally at Intel similar to what Syed Huq has done at National. He recommends that people in other companies do the same. Syed Huq reported that the EIA home page is going through some changes and the IBIS and EIA-656 access has not been set up yet. The search utility is currently disabled. Syed has translated the IBIS material into html, so the documents are ready. Syed will continue to work with EIA. FAQ VOTE Q6 and Q7 had been resubmitted to the reflector for consideration. Based on responses questions were considered here. Q6: Can IBIS model SSO (Simultaneous Switching Output) ? Sung Oh raised the issue that gate modulation feedback effects can change di/dt and are not modeled. Arpad Muranyi argued that some of the modulation effects can be obtained by looking at all of the tables (min, typ, and max). Will Hobbs indicated that several IBIS formatted models could be provided for SSO simulation for a sequence of 1 driver, 2 drivers, etc. Also, the [Pin Mapping] keyword gives some useful information. Arpad indicated that decoupling on the die can be a significant factor. The general consensus was that some level of SSO is supported, but it is dangerous to imply SSO is completely covered. AR - Syed Huq post a reworded answer for further reflector discussion. Q7: Why do we need to sweep -Vcc to 2Vcc ? There was discussion concerning the need and validity of the clamping currents at the end of the range. The concensus was that extrapolated values were sufficiently accurate and that high currents do not occur in signal integrity applications in actual simulations. So the answer was basically correct. The last two paragraphs were combined. The committee voted to approve the response. MODELS UNDER NDA The comment on the reflector by Dileep Divekar on NDA models may be resolved by a FAQ of the form: Are models freely available? The response is that some models are available under NDA because the part has not been released and also some models are generated for sale as part of a model generation business. Will Hobbs will send Syed Huq the reflector discussion. AR - Will Hobbs send Syed Huq the reflector discussion regarding models under NDA. AR - Syed Huq formulate a question and answer for review and voting. GOLDEN PARSER UPDATE Version 8 has been distributed. Arpad Muranyi has received Version 9 correcting a Banded_matrix bug. He is sending it to Will Hobbs for distribution. This should be the final Beta version. BIRD30 - PIN PROGRAMMABLE BUFFER STRENGTHS There was no time for discussion, but Bob Ross indicated that maybe there was a more consistent syntax which will eliminate the floating "Default" and may allow some attributes. NEXT MEETING: It is set on Friday, September 15 1995. ============================================================================== NOTES IBIS CHAIR: Will Hobbs (503) 264-4369, Fax (503) 264-4210 will_hobbs@ccm.jf.intel.com Modeling Manager, Intel Corp. 2111 NE 28th M/S JF1-57, Hillsboro, OR 97124 USA VICE CHAIR: Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259 jonp@qdt.com 1385 Del Norte Rd., Camarillo, CA 93010 SECRETARY: Bob Ross (503) 603-2523, fax (503) 639-3469 bob@icx.com 10220 SW Nimbus Ave, K4, Portland, OR 97223 To become a voting member of the EIA IBIS Open Forum, send email to ibis-info@vhdl.org for instructions. If you want to join the e-mail reflector (ibis@vhdl.org), send e-mail to the IBIS secretary at ibis-request@vhdl.org. Check the pub/ibis directory on vhdl.org for more information on previous discussions and results. You can get on via ftp anonymous, "guest" login from telnet or dial-in (415-335-0110), or send an email request to the automatic archive server, archive@vhdl.org. "IBIS Spoken Here" placards are available from Jon Powell (jonp@qdt.com) for use at trade shows. ==============================================================================