DATE: September 9, 1997 SUBJECT: 9/5/97 EIA IBIS Open Forum Minutes VOTING MEMBERS AND 1997 PARTICIPANTS LIST: AMP Jeff Walden Applied Simulation Technology [Dileep Divekar], Norio Matsui, Raj Raghuram*, Fred Balistreri Cadence Design & UniCAD C. Kumar, Don Telian, Cameron Seitz Cypress Bruce Wenniger Digital Equipment Corp. Jeff Chu High Design Technology (Razvan Ene) HyperLynx Kellee Crisafulli, Steve Kaufer, Matthew Flora* INCASES Olaf Rethmeier*, Werner Rissiek Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi, Henry Maramis, Will Hobbs, Frank Kern* Interconnectix Bob Ross* Mitsubushi Tam Cao, Hoang Nguyen Motorola [Ahmed Omer], Michael Desiderio, Paul Bolden, Tom Myers, Rob Wenzel National Semiconductor Syed Huq*, Cheng-Yang Kao, Mike Bristol, Peter Laflamme, Kevin Smith NCR Dave Moxley*, Richard Mellitz NEC (Hiroshi Matsumoto) Quantic EMC (Mike Ventham) Texas Instruments Thomas Fisher Thomson-CSF/SCTF (Jean LeBrun) Viewlogic Jon Powell, Chris Rokusek*, Peivand Tehrani Graham Bell* VeriBest Ian Dodd*, William Bell, Dave Wiens* VLSI Technology Harish Patel, D.C. Sessions* OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1997: 3M [Fran Hart] Actel Scott Schlachter Acuson & Free Model Foundation Richard Munden Alcatel John Fitzpatrick Ansoft Eric Bogatin Apteq Design Systems Dan FitzPatrick Compaq Weston Beal, Mark Leonard Dell Computer Dave Baranauskas, Doug Wallace EIA Patti Rusher* EMC Fabrizio Zanella Hewlett Packard, EEsof Karl Kachigan, Henry Wu Hewlett Packard, France Jean-Christophe Pautrat Hitachi Saburo Hojo, Yasushi Ogawa IBM Brad Herrman Interface Technology Dan Waterloo Micron Technology Brian Johnson Molex Gus Panella North Carolina State U. (Michael Steer) S3, Inc. Porsh Shih, Sarathy Sribhashyam Symmetry Andy Hughes TRW Ray Steele Ultratest International Charles Im Zeelan Technology George Opsahl In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses. Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets. Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as follows: Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode September 26 (916) 356-9200 1-178721 5387488 All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas out 7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode. NOTE: "AR" = Action Required. -------------------------------- MINUTES ------------------------------------- INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM The following new participants introduced themselves: Raj Raghuram is taking over the Applied Simulation Technology representation. While most of his involvement has been at his current company, he has also been involved with Syed Huq at National Semiconductor doing IBIS model development. Graham Bell from Viewlogic, Fremont, CA is interested in the modeling problem for marketing support for some of Viewlogic's signal integrity products. Dave Wiens of Veribest is involved in marketing their signal integrity products and related IBIS issues. MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT Patti Rusher did not have a current membership or treasurer's report. (The last report was $5,272.) Bob Ross and Patti had carried out an off line discussion concerning budget and membership status, but the questions still need to be resolved. REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S Matthew Flora's written name was corrected from Matt Flora, although he goes by both Matt or Matthew in conversation. Patti Rusher's name was corrected from Pattie in a few locations. Stephen Peters reviewed the AR's. D.C Sessions has completed his AR (explaining the best way to modify a SPICE transistor model to get realistic power and ground clamp curves) and Bob Ross has supplied both his text examples for the cookbook. The major outstanding A/Rs are examples for the Cookbook and BIRDs and will be carried forward. MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS Bob Ross announced that he will use one of the accepted aliases "eda.org" in place of "vhdl.org" as the site location for IBIS documents and mailing addresses. This nomenclature is more representative of the EIA/IBIS Open Forum since IBIS has no technical association with VHDL. D.C. Sessions noted that VLSI Logic annual technical center training will include a session on IBIS taught by D.C. PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES Syed Huq has made some roster updates. Also, a member company plans to submit a logo for the poster page after going through the authorization steps. Bob Ross reported that Syed's Open tutorial on "Understanding and Using IBIS Models for Signal Integrity Analysis" is listed in the High-level Electronic System Design Conference (HESDC '97) insert that has appeared in several magazines. It is scheduled October 7-9, 1997 in San Jose, CA. Bob also noted that the "HyperLynx Upgrades HyperSuite" in EE Times, p. 63, August 25, 1997 mentions IBIS. Bob noted that the final column in Howard Johnson's Straight Talk for Serious Digital Designers titled "The Real Truth About Crosstalk" in Electronic Design, August 18, 1997, pg. 115, mentions IBIS at the end. Finally, Bob noted that two references to IBIS exist in the September, 1997 issue of Printed Circuit Design. The IBIS Version 3.0 press release is given on page 9, and Shelly Nielsen's writeup on the PCB Design Conference East, in Boston, September 15-19, 1997, references Bob's course on "Practical Issues with IBIS Models". NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE D.C. Sessions states that VLSI Technology has pulled their IBIS models from their web page. He had written on the reflector that they represented obsolete products and that they are discussing how to deal with future IBIS models (whether by Web site or by CD ROM). He also indicated later that some new features of IBIS Version 3.0 would have been useful even for these models. He will make available IBIS model with new features for testing. Bob Ross noted that IBM Microelectronics is offering downloadable IBIS models to registered users at: http://www.cips.ibm.com/products/memory/selguide/modelmenu.html Jon Powell has updated the EIA/IBIS Web page models section with the above changes. Syed reported that National has placed two new SuperI/O IBIS models on their Web page. OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES Matthew Flora on reporting ibischk2+ problems Dave Wiens on s2ibis for NT status INTERNATIONAL PROGRESS - 93/46/NP (IBIS Version 2.1) - Patti Rusher reported that the US Technical Advisorary Group (TAG) is tracing the documentation associated with this effort. Patti expects more details after the Tokyo IEC meeting in September, 1997 concerning the status and response to 93/46/NP. - 93/60/NP (IBIS Models and EMC Simulation) - Patti reported that the US TAG has conditionally voted yes, pending a better definition of the scope of this effort. She should have more information after the Tokyo IEC meeting. - EIAJ III (I/O Interface Model for ICs) - Patti reports that this proposal has been forwarded to the WG3. The EIAJ subcommittee has been invited to give at presentation at an industrial forum at the IEC meeting. EAST COAST IBIS USERS GROUP Bob Ross reported that Dr. Ed Sayre of North East Systems Associates (NESA) has set up an East Coast IBIS Users meeting in Stow, Massachusetts on Thursday, September 18, 1997 from 2 p.m. onward. Ed expects about 25 people at the initial meeting. Information has been posted on the ibis-users reflector. More details are expected to be posted soon. The agenda of this first meeting will also cover organizational details. In addition, Ed expects to have several presentations. Bob also noted that he is having some very preliminary discussion separately on a possible IBIS meeting associated with EuroDAC in France in February, 1998. S2IBIS FOR NT Dave Wiens plans to post the improved s2ibis_ver1.3 for NT on the VeriBest Web site where links already exist from the EIA/IBIS Web page and other sites. Work still exists to create the latest s2ibis2_ver2.1 files. Bob Ross did not want the earlier version posted since there have been several significant changes, even though, according to Ian Dodd, the number of file differences are small. So partial compliance with the AR is expected soon. AR - Ian Dodd put s2ibis_ver1.3 and s2ibis_ver2.1 for Windows on the VeriBest Web site. EDITING COMMITTEE Stephen Peters reported that he and Bob Ross met to go over some issues. They developed an outline for sectioning the document. The outline included an introduction section which will give more scope and detail. Also after review Stephen and Bob agreed to some of the terms proposed by Ogawa-san of the EIAJ subcommittee. Some additional detail to clarify "required" keywords was discussed since they provide only a minimal set. Some non-required keywords are really technically required if they are applicable. Perhaps a table will be added for this as in the Cookbook. Bob and Stephan still plan a first pass to be put in the work in progress directory (wip). The existing ARs are still in effect. AR - Bob Ross generate and post a BNF for IBIS Version 3.0 (and IBIS Version 3.0 ratification AR). AR - Stephen Peters and Bob Ross generate an editorial revision of Version 3.0 and place it in the eda.org/pub/ibis/wip directory. BIRD44 - INTERPRETATION OF MIN/MAX/WEAK/STRONG DATA Per the discussion of last meeting, Bob Ross has moved BIRD44 discussion into the Editing Committee Area since BIRD44 relates to an editorial issue. It proposes changing the min and max column headings to weak and strong, where applicable under the [Model] keyword. BIRD44 will be considered more closely at a later time as part of the the Version 3.0 editorial activity. VERSION 2.1 PARSER (& S2IBIS) BUG REPORTING Matthew Flora opened the discussion on this new item. He has discovered some bugs with the existing ibischk2+ code and wanted to know how to report them. One bug was that a [Pullup] or [Pulldown] table with no data was not flagged, and another involved a crash after a keyword was positioned after the [End] statement. Matthew is aware of the /pub/ibis/bugs directory under eda.org where ibischk bug information and a report form is stored and is also aware of the email address ibischk-bug@eda.org. His major concern is that the process is not documented on from the EIA/IBIS Web site or as a Frequently Asked Question (FAQ). D.C. Sessions suggested an FTP site where bug test could be sent. They could be used for subsequent testing. After some discussion, Matthew will work with Syed Huq concerning providing process information. AR - Matthew Flora work with Syed Huq regarding generating an FAQ and also an informative link from the EIA/IBIS Open Forum Web page on how to report bugs on ibischk parsers. Chris Rokusek asked whether a help switch could be added to the ibischk2+ parser that would generate a bug report form. The consensus was that this would be a good idea. Chris also noted that the nomenclature should have been version 2.114 rather than 2.14. Bob Ross stated that if changes are made, the parser should be nomenclated as 2.115. Bob also noted that anyone who has purchased the source code license for ibischk2 can get the source code for these newer versions. Syed confirmed that ibischk2+ provides its version number, in response to a question by Matthew. The question arose where to report s2ibis bugs. They are to be handled by the EIA/IBIS Open Forum, rather than by NCSU. After some discussion Bob agreed to create a bug form and set up another directory for s2ibis bugs. AR - Bob Ross set up a bug directory for s2ibis bugs, and create a bug form. Bob will also work out a bug reporting process. VERSION 3.1 PARSER Bob Ross reported that one bid has come in and we are waiting for others. Bob also noted that in the past the source code licenses cost $500 each for ibis_chk and ibischk2. This covered the contracted development cost with some margin since several purchases were made after the code had been developed. Over 20 companies have paid for licenses for ibischk2. The benefit for many companies is simply to help the development expense for the common benefit of all and also to get an early view as the code is being developed. In some cases, they can perform early checks for IBIS models under development with the newer features before the official parser is considered complete and is released. The bids are expected to be higher than in the past. In anticipation of this Bob wanted to get a sense of how much companies are willing to pay to share the cost of ibischk3. Bob was probing the $2000 to $5000 range for each company (with the expectation that fewer companies would join in to license the source code.) If you are interested in licensing the source code, please respond privately to Bob Ross regarding about how much you would be willing pay to share the ibischk3 development expense. (Bob will also phone around to get a sense of commitment level.) Based on some preliminary discussion, the $2,000 to @2,500 range seemed tolerable. Bob indicated that a payment commitment that covers the total cost will be needed before we can accept any bid. Bob also raised the idea that individual companies such as Interconnectix may consider using internal staff to develop such a parser. Other companies that might consider this include Hyperlynx, Viewlogic, VeriBest and Cadence, since they already have IBIS experience and need such a parser. Consistent with the existing licensing policy, some fee would be set for licensing the source code. With this arrangement, the company could get at least partial compensation for the internal effort. Bob's main question was if anyone objected to pursuing this option. No objections were raised. Chris Rokusek commented that if a company did the development, they would have to maintain the code indefinitely. Bob commented that after the parser is released and accepted the company could expect to be compensated for additional work, especially if it involved a lot of effort. We have paid for additional work for ibischk2 fixes (and enhancements) in the past. Ian Dodd commented that some of the Version 3.0 enhancements are very easy to add. Others, such as series switches, are difficult to understand and therefore may be costly to include. Bob stated that this is one of the major benefits of developing the ibischk3 parser - discover and resolve the ambiguous areas of IBIS Version 3.0. This has worked well in the past leading to IBIS Version 1.1 and IBIS Version 2.1 documents. Bob asked Chris to join him, Jon Powell, Syed Huq and Stephen Peters on the ibischk3 proposal review committee. LEGAL IBIS VERSION 3.0 FILES Bob Ross reported that some "legal" concerns were raised at the last meeting regarding issuing IBIS Version 3.0 that have not been validated using the non-existent ibischk3 parser. Jon Powell initiated some further discussion on the ibis reflector, without resolution. Stephen Peters felt that the IBIS model should be corrupted in some manner (issued as a .txt file or have the [IBIS Ver] designation "preliminary" so that the earlier releases would be guaranteed to fail ibischk3) until formally checked. Bob felt that some method was needed, but that the existing comments and disclaimer methods and [File Rev] control were sufficient without introducing corruption. There is now a "chicken and egg" situation where companies are now including IBIS Version 3.0 features that require uncorrupted IBIS Version 3.0 models. The user could introduce error while undoing the corruption. Bob also stated that "legal" was not a good term since it implies compliance to a (copyright) law, whereas he understood the intended meaning to be "in (legal) compliance with the documented IBIS Version 3.0 syntax. Stephen suggested that the committee take a position on this, and Bob suggested a general statement that we can all agree to - while each company will decide their own IBIS model release policy with IBIS Version 3.0 features, we strongly suggest that the models be clearly documented at the top with the statement that it is released without having been checked with the (to be developed) ibischk3 syntax checker and is therefore subject to error. A subsequent release of the model when the ibischk3 checker is available may contain syntactical corrections. COOKBOOK Stephen Peters reported that D.C. Sessions and Bob Ross have provided him write ups and an example per ARs. D.C. provided the writeup on getting realistic clamping information, and Bob provided a section on diode transit time and a series switch example. Other AR's remain in effect. Stephen will make some additions and work with Bob to put the cookbook into the work in progress directory (/pub/ibis/wip) in eda.org. The document Version Number will be used to document new version. After some discussion and reviewing what we agreed to at the last meeting, Syed Huq will provide a link from the official EIA/IBIS Web page to this document. He will include the appropriate warnings that the Cookbook is just a preliminary version that will undergo revision. The Version Number of any Cookbook document needs to be checked with the posted document to assure that the latest Cookbook Document is being used. AR - The following people have volunteered to supply examples Steve Kaufer/Hyperlynx -- Example 1 (Version 1.1 basic model) Arpad Muranyi - Example 2 Stephen Peters - Example 3 AR - Syed Huq. Review and expand (if necessary) Section 3.3. on "Obtaining I/V and Switching Information via Lab Measurement". AR - Stephen Peters with Bob Ross put a copy of the Cookbook in the eda.org/pub/ibis/wip directory after appropriate Version Number and preliminary disclaimers are added. AR - Syed Huq provide a link to access the Cookbook document from the official EIA/IBIS Web Site after the Cookbook is uploaded. BIRD42.3 - MODELING CURRENT WAVEFORMS D.C. Sessions has not gotten together with C. Kumar regarding some technical discussion on where rising and falling waveform table do not produce the correct response. Instead, D.C. plans to put the discussion on the IBIS reflector. So the AR now reflects this change. AR - D.C. Sessions provide an example on the IBIS reflector showing where the rising and falling waveform tables do not result in correct results [Done]. SWITCHING TERMINATORS No Report. MISCELLANEOUS DISCUSSION Frank Kern asked if CAE Vendors are adding Version 3.0 features. Bob Ross and Dave Wiens responded that Interconnectix and VeriBest will have some IBIS Version 3.0 features in their next releases. Bob then asked what the semiconductor vendors view as the most important IBIS Version 3.0 features for inclusion by CAE Vendors. A similar discussion occurred during the Version 2.1 development and helped CAE Vendors prioritize their development activities. This discussion will be added to next meetings agenda. D.C. Sessions indicated that VLSI really requires the buffer selection addition [Model Selector]. Even older IBIS models needed this. Frank Kern suggested that this be a discussion topic at the next meeting since he needs to research this question. Syed Huq wanted all of the features since he felt that excluding any feature gave permission for CAE Vendors never to implement it. From a user's perspective, Dave Moxley did not have any specific need beyond Version 2.1. However, he could use series switches if its implementation is realistic and not too cumbersome. NEXT MEETING: The next meeting is on Friday, September 26, 1997, 8:00 A.M. to 9:55 A.M. ============================================================================== NOTES IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 603-2523, Fax (503) 639-3469 bob@icx.com Modeling Engineer, Interconnectix 10220 SW Nimbus Ave, K4, Portland, OR 97223 VICE CHAIR: Syed Huq (408) 721-4874, Fax: (408) 721-4785 huq@rockie.nsc.com Staff Applications Engineer, National Semiconductor, M/S A-2595 2900 Semiconductor Drive, Santa Clara, CA 95052 SECRETARY: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515 sjpeters@ichips.intel.com Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation M/S JF1-56 2111 NE 25th Ave. Hillsboro, Oregon 97124-5961 LIBRARIAN: Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259 jonp@qdt.com Senior Scientist, Viewlogic (formerly Quad Design) 1385 Del Norte Rd., Camarillo, CA 93010 This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA Manual of Organization and Procedure. The following e-mail addresses are used: ibis-request@eda.org To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector (ibis@eda.org), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector (ibis-users@eda.org) or both. State your request. ibis-info@eda.org To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS Open Forum as a full Member. ibis@eda.org To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS technical enhancements. Job posting information is not permitted. ibis-users@eda.org To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and general user concerns. Job posting information is not permitted. ibischk-bug@eda.org To report ibischk2 parser bugs. The Bug Report Form Resides on eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/bugform.txt along with reported bugs. Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the Electronic Information Group under: http://www.eia.org Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous discussions and results. You can get on via FTP anonymous. "IBIS Spoken Here" placards are available from Jon Powell (jonp@qdt.com) for use at trade shows. ==============================================================================