DATE: 11/24/98 SUBJECT: 11/20/98 EIA IBIS Open Forum Minutes VOTING MEMBERS AND 1998 PARTICIPANTS LIST: AMP (Martin Freedman) Applied Simulation Technology Norio Matsui, Raj Raghuram Cadence Design (& UniCAD) C. Kumar, Don Telian, Patrick Riffault, Craig Lewis, Greg Fitzgerald, Paul Galloway, Patrick Dos Santos, Catherine Weiss, Alain Tribaudot, Geoffrey Ellis, Todd Westerhoff, Ken Willis, Mike LaBonte Cisco Systems Syed Huq*, Sergio Camerlo, Irfan Elahi Compaq Shariq Rahma, Jeff Chu, Bob Haller, (Digital Equipment Corp.) Doug Burns, Steve Coe Cypress Bruce Wenniger H.A.S. Electronics Haruny Said Hewlett Packard (EEsof, etc.) Karl Kachigan, Henry Wu, Paul Gregory, Brenda Arena High Design Technology Razvan Ene HyperLynx Kellee Crisafulli, Matthew Flora*, Gene Garat, Dave Kohlmeier Incases Olaf Rethmeier, Scott Jacobson, Werner Rissiek Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Frank Kern, (& formerly NCR) Will Hobbs, Prakash Radhakrishnan, Mohammed Hawana, Martin Chang, Dave Moxley, Tim Schreyer, Lyndell Asbenson LSI Logic (Symbios Logic) Larry Barnes Mentor Graphics (Zeelan, Bob Ross*, George Opsahl, Mark Noneman, Interconnectix, etc.) Tom Dagostino, Karine Loudet, Jean Oudinot, Manuel De Almeida, Stephane Rousseau, Neven Orhanovic, Mohamed Mahmoud, Kevin Cohan Mitsubishi Tam Cao Motorola (Ron Werner) National Semiconductor Cheng-Yang Kao, John Goldie, Ikchang Song, Milt Schwartz* North East Systems Associates Edward Sayre, Kathy Breda, Michael Baxter, (NESA) Jon Green, Jinhua Chen NEC (Hiroshi Matsumoto) Quantic EMC (Mike Ventham) Texas Instruments Thomas Fisher, Harvey Stiegler, Vincent Chang, Jean-Claude Perrin, Peter Forstner Thomson-CSF Jean-Marc Claveau, Laurent Duzaic, Saverio Lerose, Benoit Meyniel, Jean Lefebvre Viewlogic Jon Powell, Chris Rokusek, Guy de Burgh, Gary Mandel VeriBest Ian Dodd*, David Weins, Ian Gabbitas VLSI Technology D.C. Sessions* Zuken-Redac (John Berrie) OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1998: 3Com Steve Miller 3Dfx Interactive Ken Wu A.T.Sinker Tony Sinker Actel Eric Tardif, Emmonvelle Gaudin Aerospatiale Lionel Dreux, Claude Huet Alcatel (Bell, Espace, etc.) John Fitzpatrick, W. Temmerman, Laure Bessettes, Jean-Claude Pourtau, Daniel Peron ALS Design Yves Mouquet Ansoft Eric Bogatin Apple Fred Floresca, Danny Itani Apteq Design Systems Dan FitzPatrick Atmel Ali Baktashian Avanti Nik Bannov CERN Olivier Clere, Jean-Michel Sainson, Rudi Zurbroken Corning John Nieznanski Crucial Technology Rathna Reddy DIVA Corp Tieng Nguyen Dynamic Research Corporation Mike Walsh EIA Patti Rusher EMC Fawn Engelmann, Fabrizio Zanella ENST, Paris Jean-Jacques Charlot European CAD Standardization Adam Morawiec Intitiative (ECSI) Fairchild Semiconductor Peter LaFlamme Focus Technology John Salzillo, Gary Brophy, Mike Arieta, Jim Skane IBM Richard Steinle, Kevin Jackson, Greg Edlund* InRange Elliot Lipin Intracon Design Ltd. Derek Laidlaw Molex Gus Panella* Philips Semiconductor Todd Andersen Rockwell Semiconductor Tim Gilbert Scottish Electronics Robert Easson Manufacturing Center (SEMC) Seagate Vanessa Howard Signal Integrity Software Barry Katz SGS-Thomson Philippe Lefevre Siemens Gerald Bannert, Bernhard Unger, Christian Marot, Miguel Hernandez, Gil Russell SSEI Tom Hawkins Stratus Bruce Heilbrunn, Steve Mango, Lewis Steiner, Karla Eignor, Rich Newell Summit Computer Systems Bob Davis Sun Microsystems Lam Dong, Kevin Ko, Tay Ansari, Ken Weiss Symmetry Andy Hughes Tektronix Nassrin Ghahyasi, Tom Brinkoetter, Brad Weber, John Rettig Teradyne Michael Khusid Time Domain Analysis Systems Dima Smolyansky* TranSwitch Bill Todd TRILOGIC Joe Socha Ultratest International Chris O'Connor Xilinx Susan Wu In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses. Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets. Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as follows: Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode Monday, December 7, 1998 IBIS Summit Meeting - No Teleconference December 18, 1998 (916) 356-9200 3-241993 1195347 All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas out 7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode. NOTE: "AR" = Action Required. -------------------------------- MINUTES ------------------------------------- INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM Dima Smolyansky of Time Domain Analysis Systems (TDASystems) produces software which does model extraction from time domain reflectometry measurement. He sees interest in IBIS and is interested in extending the equipment for IBIS model applications. Gus Panella of Molex is active in the IBIS Users Group working of IBIS extensions for coupled connector models. MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT No Report. REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S Bob Ross reported some minor text corrections. Under Tektronix, Brad Webb is corrected to Brad Weber in the Participation list and in the text. Under Intel, Lynn Dell is corrected to Lyndell Asbenson. Bob also made corrections sent by Bob Haller who noted that he had made some statements attributed to Greg Edlund. The uploaded minutes have been revised to show the corrections and to distinguish comments made by Bob Ross and Bob Haller: Under IBISEAST OCTOBER 15, 1998 SUMMIT FEEDBACK: "Greg also noted that they appreciated Will Hobbs' presentation to move forward rapidly and to have the IBIS document keep pace with technology." Has been corrected to: "Bob Haller also noted that they appreciated Will Hobbs' presentation to move forward rapidly and to have the IBIS document keep pace with technology." Under DESIGNCON99 FEBRUARY 1, 1998 SUMMIT MEETING: "Greg Edlund noted that the Accuracy Committee has arranged for more Hewlett-Packard equipment than at the October 15, 1998 Summit meeting and is planning to use the booth. Greg asked if a CAE vendor could also be in the booth to show simulations that correlate with measurement." has been corrected to: "Bob Haller noted that the Accuracy Committee has arranged for more Hewlett-Packard equipment than at the October 15, 1998 Summit meeting and is planning to use the booth. Bob Haller asked if a CAE vendor could also be in the booth to show simulations that correlate with measurement." The ARs will be discussed during the meeting. MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS None. PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES Syed Huq reported that there have been some roster additions and updates. NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE No report. Added note: Jon Powell sent out a message that the Models page has been updated. OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES None. INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS - IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 2.1) - No report. - pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits (IMIC) - Bob Ross reported, as previously discussed that he, Stephen Peters, and Raj Raghuram will interface with the I/O Interface Model group. Norio Matsui will also participate. Raj is working on an accuracy test comparing a table Spice simulation with the silicon model simulations. He may report his results at the December 7, 1998 IBIS Summit Meeting. - IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation - No report. Bob Ross will drop this item as an agenda topic since the task group is operating at a zero level. - JC-16.2 Subcommittee: Modeling and Test - Bob Ross noted that the co-located JEDEC JC-16.2 and IBIS Meeting will be discussed below. - IEEE P1537 Electronic Data Format Project (Previously listed as the Standard Component Data Sheet) - Stephen Peters stated that a meeting had occurred where the group is attempting to understand what data to put into the document. Contact Stephen if you need more information. IBIS (EAST) USERS GROUP MEETINGS Gus Panella stated that the Connector Group's goal is to produce a document by January 1, 1999. JEDEC/IBIS DECEMBER 7, 1998 SUMMIT MEETING Bob Ross estimated that about 10 participants have signed up so far to the IBIS meeting to be held in San Diego, California on Monday, December 7, 1998. However, he does not have the most recent report. So he estimates about 15 to 20 people - a smaller group for more interactive discussion. Apparently word has not gone out to the JEDEC group about the meeting. Bob and D.C. Sessions will investigate. While much of the discussion will be interactive, the planned agenda will include the following: Input Threshold Modeling - D.C. Sessions IMIC Discussions - Bob Ross IMIC Accuracy Report - Tentatively Raj Raghuram Overview of JEDEC JC16.2 Activities on Modeling and Test - ? Bob will formalize the Agenda and have it available a week before the IBIS meeting. On the next day Bob and Stephen Peters (along with D.C. Sessions) plan to participate at the JEDEC JC-16.2 Meeting on Tuesday, December 8, 1998. Stephen Plans to give a top-level overview of IBIS at that meeting. Added Note: The IBIS Summit Meeting co-located with the JEDEC meetings is scheduled in San Diego, California on Monday, December 7, 1998 from 12 Noon to 5 PM at the Kona Kai Continental Hotel (renamed the Shelter Pointe Hotel and Marina). The meeting will start with a free buffet lunch. Contact Patti Rusher (pattir@eia.org) or through the EIA IBIS home page Upcoming Events link to register for either or both the IBIS Summit meeting and any JEDEC meeting. DESIGNCON99 FEBRUARY 1, 1999 SUMMIT MEETING Milt Schwartz indicated that National Semiconductor is planning to sponsor the buffet lunch. Milt will also be handling the local logistics including signup and collecting and copying presentations for the IBIS Summit meeting. Bob Ross stated that the IBIS Open Forum is an Associate Sponsor of DesignCon99 and that DesignCon99 will be providing the meeting room and other refreshments. A mailing concerning DesignCon99 should appear on the IBIS reflectors. The latest DesignCon99 literature now shows the spelled out IBIS logo. Bob reported that DesignCon99 is also providing a booth with electricity and will cover any setup charges. Jon Powell will be handling the logistics of the booth. The plans are to host the IBIS User's Group with a hardware demonstration of the Accuracy Specification. Currently Jon is planning a poster with company logos and possibly pointers to their booth numbers at the show. VERSION 3.2 PARSER DEVELOPMENT Matthew Flora has sent the fix to BUG33 to Atul Agarwal. Bob Ross stated that he reviewed the latest Version 3.2.1 parser and checked that the fixes had been done. It included BUG30 additional tests for [Pin Mapping] and BUG32 changes related to BIRD54 to correct an unintended IBIS Specification misinterpretation forcing a matrix format for single line package models. Bob anticipates another version of ibischk3 pending resolution of the technical discussion below. VERSION 3.2 RATIFICATION Bob Ross indicated that he would like to plan the December 18, 1998 meeting for IBIS ratification discussion and vote. He had uploaded the document ver3_2c.ibs as previously reported and will plan a ver3_2d.ibs document and a clean version for ratification review. Bob plans to drop the long standing AR to produce BNF of the IBIS Version 3.0 specification. D.C. Sessions asked if anyone else would be willing to produce the BNF syntax. No one volunteered. TEKTRONIX IPA 510 SOFTWARE DISTRIBUTION PROPOSAL Bob Ross introduced the subject by noting at the last meeting Bob, Syed Huq and Patti Rusher were to work together to implement the software license transfer of the Tektronix IPA 510 software executable to the IBIS Open Forum and to work out the details for source code transfer and distribution. Bob reported that he had contacted Ed Sayre for advice, and Ed joined the committee. As a result of discussions in the group, some new issues and concerns were raised. A long discussion was held at this meeting relating to some of the aspects of the transfer terms and whether the IBIS committee should be doing this. The general concerns were whether this software was significantly relevant to the IBIS community and whether the IBIS committee needed to supply free software that may compete with some possible commercial offerings. Some of the points are documented here. Syed Huq briefly cited some background and initially proposed that the IPA 510 executable be offered from the IBIS Web site for a 6 month trial period to test whether it is applicable to IBIS users. Matthew Flora and others argued that we should be able to do this since we have links to free executables from other commercial sources. Bob Ross was more concerned about resolving the source code distribution problem first. Dima Smolyansky shared his experiences with this type of product and stressed that users would need to be supported. The need for and degree of support was debated, but it was noted that the software transfer proposal was motivated by the Tektronix decision not to support for the product. Matthew argued that people needing support would still go to the commercial operations, even with free software available. Arpad Muranyi cited the commercial Spice business as an example even with virtually free Spice available. Matthew stated that free software can have a positive effect of raising the bar for competitive products. Bob Ross expressed concern regarding having the IBIS committee deal with the source code management issue. A dedicated volunteer would be needed to manage the source code and its improvements. Other IBIS activities had a higher priority. D.C. Sessions stated that this was a copy-left situation. However, a gate keeper is required to manage the changes, and support is needed for new users. Bob called for a vote on whether the Tektronix proposal should be rejected (no) or whether discussion of the subject should be continued (yes) since we had to move onto other issues. The vote was 4 yes to 2 no to continue the discussion. Bob stated that the discussion will be continued as an agenda item at the December 18, 1998 meeting. COOKBOOK STATUS (Not Discussed) IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION (Not Discussed) AR - Matthew Flora issue to the IBIS reflector a short write-up on the IBIS Model Review Committee. BIRD55 - [Model Spec] Vmeas Addition Bob Ross stated that the planned PCI66 discussion would be combined with the BIRD55 discussion. The PCI66 discussion had occurred on the IBIS reflector regarding some test load enhancements to support the PCI Specification. The question raised privately by Kellee Crisafulli was whether BIRD55 was compatible with possible extensions that might be done as an outcome of the PCI66 discussion. Bob summarized the PCI66 issue that Greg Edlund had asked whether IBIS could handle a separate rising waveform and falling waveform test load (and a possibly different Vmeas value. Some other products specify two different timing test loads. This includes an older version of the PCI specification. The merits of doing this were discussed on the reflector with respect to better matching some best case and worst case loading conditions. However, Greg and others still advocated a simpler, one-test load approach for models. Bob noted that BIRD55 did not deal with these issues. Rather, it provided for a minimum and maximum value of Vmeas when needed by certain technologies. IBIS models for PECL technology need Vmeas to shift for min and max columns to preserve the constant offset from the min and max values of the positive voltage rail. IBIS models for ECL configurations (with the positive reference at ground) would have the same Vmeas values for min and max columns. To a lesser extent the CMOS technology with test points referenced to a percentage of Vcc would also need min and max column Vmeas values. Bob stated that multiple test loads could be specified using the [Model Selector] keyword. It would be up to the simulator and user to process this information. Bob also suggested that even with an approved BIRD55, the IBIS Open Forum could still decide on handling rising edge and falling edge specifications separately. Bob would propose adding, for example the [Model] subparameters Vref_f, Rref_f, Cref_f, and Vmeas_f to add the falling information if it is different to the existing Vref, Rref, Cref and Vmeas. In this case, the later parameters would be used only for the rising edge, and the *_f parameters would be used for the falling edge. The Vmeas_f would also have an optional [Model Spec] entry with min and max entries. After some questions and more discussion, Bob called for a vote. BIRD55 was approved with 3 abstentions. BUG31 - Error for [Pulldown] Decreasing Current Should be Warning Bob Ross noted that we did not have time to discuss this. However, he was leaning to close it out with no change. SERIES ELEMENTS RESTRICTION Bob Ross stated that the Series element restriction had indirectly become an IBIS reflector discussion. The initial discussion was based on a question on whether differential pins could be specified when attached to Series elements. Chris Rokusek had interpreted the specification as indirectly prohibiting such a connection. However he would support a BIRD allowing such an extension. Arpad Muranyi had motivated the initial reflector question when dealing with a specific input/output configuration spanning two pins. At the meeting, Bob and D.C. Sessions noted that differential source and load terminators within a component were common practice in some devices. Bob thought the restriction was based on the fact that the [Series Pin Mapping] itself contained the restriction that limited Series elements to NC and Terminator connections. Bob had initially wanted a limited usage of the Series element in order to be consistent with the more limited usage of the Terminator element. Some mentioned on the reflector the Electrical Board Description format could be used as a workaround. Arpad argued at the meeting that the EBD approach provides an unnecessary complication. He would prefer no restrictions and cited allowing, for example, decoupling capacitors between supplies. After more general discussions, Bob proposed issuing a BIRD to continue the discussion on the IBIS reflector. A BIRD removing the restrictive sections in the [Series Pin Mapping] keyword would satisfy all concerns. AR - Bob Ross issue a BIRD removing the [Series Pin Mapping] connection restrictions allowing it to be used for only NC and Terminator models. 100 POINT BIRD? (No discussion) EIAJ IMIC TECHNICAL DISCUSSION (No Discussion) NEXT MEETING: The next meeting is the IBIS Summit Meeting on December 7, 1988 in San Diego, California. There will not be any teleconference connection. The following meeting will be on Friday, December 18, 1998 from 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM. IBIS Version 3.2 Ratification Vote is planned. Ibischk3 parser acceptance vote is planned. Votes on any new BIRDs are planned. ============================================================================== NOTES IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897 bob_ross@mentorg.com Modeling Engineer, Interconnectix BU of Mentor Graphics 8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070 VICE CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515 sjpeters@ichips.intel.com Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation M/S JF1-56 2111 NE 25th Ave. Hillsboro, Oregon 97124-5961 SECRETARY: Matthew Flora (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008 mbflora@hyperlynx.com Senior Engineer, HyperLynx, Inc. 17641 NE 67th Court Redmond, WA 98052 LIBRARIAN: Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259 jonp@qdt.com Senior Scientist, Viewlogic Systems(formerly Quad Design) 1385 Del Norte Rd., Camarillo, CA 93010 This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA Manual of Organization and Procedure. The following e-mail addresses are used: ibis-request@eda.org To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector (ibis@eda.org), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector (ibis-users@eda.org) or both. State your request. ibis-info@eda.org To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS Open Forum as a full Member. ibis@eda.org To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS technical enhancements. Job posting information is not permitted. ibis-users@eda.org To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and general user concerns. Job posting information is not permitted. ibischk-bug@eda.org To report ibischk2 parser bugs. The Bug Report Form Resides on eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs. To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt, /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, & /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt respectively. Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the Electronic Information Group under: http://www.eia.org Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous discussions and results. You can get on via FTP anonymous. ==============================================================================