DATE: 2/23/99 SUBJECT: 2/19/99 EIA IBIS Open Forum Minutes VOTING MEMBERS AND 1999 PARTICIPANTS LIST: AMP (Martin Freedman) Applied Simulation Technology Raj Raghuram*, Norio Matsui Cadence Design Mike LaBonte Cisco Systems Syed Huq* Compaq Bob Haller, Steve Coe, Shafir Rahman, Maher Elasad Cypress (Rajesh Manapat) H.A.S. Electronics (Haruny Said) Hewlett Packard (EEsof, etc.) Paul Gregory, Henry Wu High Design Technology (Razvan Ene) HyperLynx Matthew Flora*, Kellee Crisafulli Incases Olaf Rethmeier Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Frank Kern, Martin Chang, Dave Moxley, Kerry Nelson, Jeff Day, Richard Mellitz, Peter Liou LSI Logic (Symbios Logic) Scott King Mentor Graphics Bob Ross*, Mohamed Mahmoud Mitsubishi (Tam Cao) Motorola (Ron Werner) National Semiconductor Milt Schwartz* North East Systems Associates Edward Sayre, Michael Baxter, Kathy Breda NEC (Hiroshi Matsumoto) Philips Semiconductor (Todd Andersen) Quantic EMC (Mike Ventham) Texas Instruments Jean-Claude Perrin*, Shankar Balasubramaniah, Ramzi Ammar Thomson-CSF (Jean Lebrun) Viewlogic Chris Rokusek, Guy de Burgh, (Jon Powell) VeriBest Ian Dodd VLSI Technology D.C. Sessions* Zuken-Redac (John Berrie) OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1999: 3Dfx Interactive Ken Wu Actel Corporation Silvia Montoya Applied Microelectronics Brian Sanderson Avanti Nikolai Bannov Bogatin Enterprise Eric Bogatin EIA Patti Rusher EMC Corporation Fabrizio Zanella IBM Greg Edlund*, Michael Cohen*, Praven Patel Fairchild Semiconductor Peter LaFlamme, Craig Klem FCI John Ellis Litton Systems Robert Bremer Molex Incorporated Gus Panella Rockwell Collins Susan Tweeton, Ron Hau Samsung Jung-Gun Byun, Cheol-Seung Choi Siemens AG Bernhard Unger Signals & Systems Engineering Tom Hawkins SiQual Scott McMorrow StorageTek Nick Krull Sun Microsystems Victor Chang Tektronix Tom Brinkoetter* Teradyne Mikhail Khusid Time Domain Analysis Systems Dima Smolyansky* Xilinx Susan Wu (Unaffiliatied, Retired) Bruce Wenniger In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses. Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets. Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as follows: Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode Tuesday, March 9, 1999 IBIS Summit Meeting - No Teleconference March 26, 1999 Not Yet Available All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas out 7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode. NOTE: "AR" = Action Required. -------------------------------- MINUTES ------------------------------------- INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM Tom Brinkoetter of Tektronix, who had called in last year, joined us for the IPA 510 discussion. MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT Bob Ross reported that the annual membership invoices have been sent out. Also, Philips Semiconductor was an IBIS Member in 1998. The December 18, 1998 minutes have been changed to show this membership. Last year there were 27 IBIS members. About 33 invoices were sent out this year. Membership is officially established when payment (or purchase order) is received by EIA. Bob expects several new memberships, including some from participating IBIS East companies. REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S No corrections. The ARs will be discussed during the meeting. MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS Bob Ross reported that the http://pub/ibis/summits/ directories now have all the uploaded Summit material (from face-to-face meetings) indexed by month/ year of the summit. Some Summits had no uploadable material. The minutes for these summits may be uploaded in the future. PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES Syed Huq reported some minor changes to the EIA IBIS web page have been sent to EIA. The list of upcoming events has been updated. Bob Ross reported the EE Times Article "EIAJ Proposes Alternative to IBIS Modeling Scheme" in the January 25, 1999 issue of EE Times. This article discusses the IBIS committee relationship with the EIAJ I/O modeling subgroup. It contains quotes from several IBIS committee participants. Bob reported that the DesignCon99 brochure listed IBIS as an Associate Sponsor and had a full page add for the IBIS Open Forum and Booth. Bob also reported that the presentation "A Tour of the IBIS Accuracy Specification" by Robert Haller, Peter LaFlamme was presented on Tuesday, February 2, 1999 at DesignCon99. This presentation is stored in the IBIS FTP site accuracy subdirectory: http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/accuracy/desconibis.zip and is accessible using the Accuracy Info link on the EIA IBIS home page. Bob reported that a presentation last year at DesignCon98 by Jon Powell and Chuck Berman titled "Creating Signal Integrity Models from Physical Measurement" appeared on pages 22-27 of the Hewlett-Packard publication Insite, Volume 4, Issue 1, 1999. Bob reported that Arpad Muranyi is teaching a session on "Introduction to IBIS Models" at the Circuit Simulation and Signal Integrity in Microelectronic Circuits and Systems tutorial short course. Also Tim Schreyer will teach "High Speed Interconnect Design". Finally, EDN Magazine has an EDN on Signal Integrity section which contains several links with IBIS content including "IBIS Links and Information": http://www.ednmag.com/special/si.cfm NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE Jon Powell reported on the reflector a EIA IBIS Web Site model page update. He asks for more input. Email what you know to jonp@packbell.net Bob Ross reported that Philips Semiconductor has IBIS model links: http://www.philipslogic.com/products/pc/ http://www.philipslogic.com/support/ibis/ Bob also reported that Hyundai Electronics has IBIS models (registration is required): http://kcs.hei.co.kr/models/model/model.html The International Microelectronics FTP link now contains directly downloadable IBIS models (without the need for a password): ftp://ftp13.ba.best.com/pub/imiweb8/ibis/ OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES Bob Ross - Payment of Atul for parser development $4168 Bob Ross - Bug34 - No Error Reported for Missing V/I Table in Output Buffers (not covered) INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS - IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 2.1) - Bob Ross repeated a previous report that IEC has circulated IBIS Version 2.1 on November 6, 1998. The Committee Draft for Vote (CDV) closes ballot on April 15, 1999. - pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits (IMIC) - Bob Ross reported that Dr. Hideki Fukuda held an EIAJ I/O Project Group meeting on January 12, 1999. The group discussed a relationship with IBIS, and almost all of the members wanted to cooperate with IBIS and reach a merger of IBIS and IMIC. They decided to make a group to discuss the issues of the relationship with IBIS. Another topic of the meeting was EMI. They will tackle the problem of applying IMIC to EMI analysis. Some of this information was also discussed at the IBIS Summit Meeting on February 1, 1999. - IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation - Jean-Claude Perrin reported that he plans an Experts meeting in March in preparation for a Working Group meeting later. A presentation is planned, but some software checking will be needed. Jean-Claude may not be able to attend the DATE99 IBIS Summit, but he expects someone from his group to attend. Jean-Claude will contact Bob Ross off-line concerning details of the presentation. - JC-16.2 Subcommittee: Modeling and Test - Bob Ross reported that D.C. Sessions reported on the reflector that a JEDEC standard now has requirements that IBIS Version 3.2 may not be able to handle. Stephen Peters and Kellee Crisafulli responded that [Model Selector] could be used. However, D.C. stated that this could produce too many models. Arpad Muranyi stated that some extension to IBIS such as equation based models might be used for such situations. Bob stated that this discussion needs to be deferred to a later time. This functionality could be a candidate for IBIS Version 4.x extensions - consistent with other input extensions. D.C. stated, as previously reported, that he is Chair of a JEDEC sub-group to standardize on a generic IBIS Model for double data rate SDRAM electrical characterization. D.C. is looking for IBIS members to help out. Contact D.C. at dc.sessions@vlsi.com if you are interested. - IEEE P1537 Electronic Data Format Project (Previously listed as the Standard Component Data Sheet) - Stephen Peters had no further report. IBIS (EAST) USERS GROUP MEETINGS Greg Edlund reported that the IBIS User Group will be holding teleconference meetings. Each meeting is planned to be on Friday of the week following, and at the same time of day as, the IBIS Open Forum meeting. The first one is scheduled for Friday, February 26, 1999 from 8 AM to 10 AM PST. Greg stated that about one hour will be devoted to Accuracy Committee issues, and Ed Sayre will be using the other hour for a general IBIS East meeting. The agenda and meeting contact details will be sent out after the IBIS Open Forum Meeting on the ibis-users@eda.org reflector. Greg expects to send out meeting minutes on that reflector. Bob Ross reported that Mentor Graphics is hosting the meeting and providing the dial-in number and password information for these minutes: Bridge Access Code Friday Feb. 26, 8 AM to 10 AM: 1-608-250-9675 734362 Bob noted that the DesignCon99 presentation has been uploaded to the FTP site. It is accessible directly and through the Accuracy link noted above. Bob also noted that the Connector activity will be covered as a separate group and working directly with the IBIS Open Forum. Some documents have been uploaded at a new "connector" subdirectory on the IBIS FTP site: http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/connector/ DESIGNCON99 FEBRUARY 1, 1999 SUMMIT REVIEW Bob Ross called for feedback on the February 1, 1999 IBIS Summit meeting. Matthew Flora stated it was a good meeting and that much of the material should provide new BIRDs for enhancing IBIS. Bob noted that typically some IBIS Summit material in the past has seeded actual specification advances. Bob thanked National Semiconductor for hosting the lunch, and Milt Schwartz for helping in the meeting logistics and in copying the presentations. Bob commented that the Booth went well and again thanked Viewlogic for providing the backdrop and Jon Powell for handling the logos and other details. Jon is currently in possession and is storing the logo placards for later use. Bob also commented that he expects to see the DesignCon99 problems concerning the proceedings and lack of room for many High Performance System Design sessions to be resolved next year. Bob expects that the IBIS Open Forum will be an Associate Sponsor again next year. DATE99 MARCH 9, 1999 SUMMIT MEETING Bob Ross noted that information has been sent out on the IBIS Summit meeting associated with the DATE99 conference in Munich, Germany. The IBIS meeting is scheduled for Tuesday, March 9, 1999 at the Hotel below: ASTRON HOTEL/Neue Messe Eggenfeldener Strasse 100 Munich, Germany Lunch, provided to all participants, will start at 12 Noon, and the meeting is expected to start at 1:00 PM. The date was chosen to avoid conflicting with the trade show portion of DATE99 held Wednesday through Friday. The Noon starting time will allow some people to fly in that morning. Mentor Graphics, INCASES, High Design Technology are co-sponsoring the IBIS Summit Meeting. INCASES has sent out a press release in Europe concerning the meeting. Bob listed the tentative agenda: 12:00: LUNCH (Provided to all participants) 13:00 - 18:00 MEETING Current IBIS Activities and Issues Bob Ross, Mentor Graphics Detecting Typical Bugs in IBIS Models Werner Rissiek, INCASES Engineering Validation of IBIS Based Two Waveform Behavioral Models Bernhard Unger, Siemens AG IBIS Version 3.2 Update Stephen Peters, Intel BREAK IBIS Management and CHECK at Siemens ICN Gerald Bannert, Siemens DOGEN, An Internal Model Library Management Tool Hans Pichlmaier, Siemens General Questions and Discussions - IBIS Interpretation IBIS Future Requirements Stephen Peters, Intel Future Requirements on Frequency Dependent Package and MCM Modeling (Tentative) Werner Rissiek, INCASES Engineering General Questions and Discussions - Future Requirements - Any other topic of interest Ad-hoc Presentations Another flyer will be sent out early next week. The Agenda will be sent out one week in advance. Presenters are requested to send electronic copies of their presentations to karine_loudet@mentor.com for copying by February 26, 1999 or earlier. Otherwise plan to bring 50 copies for the meeting. Stephen Peters reported problems with this address, and Bob will handle this offline. (Stephen successfully sent his presentations.) Bob noted that some of the presentations may be uploaded under a Mar99 subdirectory before the meeting. IBIS VERSION 3.2 EIA STANDARD PREPARATIONS Bob Ross stated that IBIS Version 3.2 had been ratified at the January 15, 1999 meeting and the ARs for it had been completed. The revised document was uploaded at http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/ver3.2/ver3_2.ibs Patti Rusher supplied a link to Bob regarding an example of a JEDEC document that is downloadable and subject to electronic balloting. Bob plans to have an electronic balloting mechanism set up for ratification of IBIS Version 3.2 as ANSI/EIA-656A. However, Bob is not aware that anything has been set up yet. IBISCHK3 VERSION 3.2.2 AND VERSION 3.2.3 Bob Ross reported that the ibischk3 Version 3.2.2 and Version 3.2.3 have been distributed to the companies supporting the parser development. The executables for ibischk3 version 3.2.2 have been uploaded. Several issues came up. Atul Agarwal asked if the old ibis_chk executable for Version 1.1 should be split off. He gave the options of deleting it from ibischk3, accessing it by a switch, or keep as is (autodetect Version 1.1 level files to invoke the ibis_chk code. Bob favored keeping ibischk3 as is. Bob also noted that it was reported that the hp10 executable did not properly handle the IBIS Version 3.2 extension on the number of characters allowed in file names when the file name had more than 8 characters. ibischk3 worked fine for Sun UNIX and Windows operating systems. Matthew Flora stated that he tracked the location where the error is being generated. He will work with Chris Rokusek (and Atul) for more clarification and testing. Bob raised the new agenda item for approving payment to Atul Agarwal. Bob reported that Atul had performed work beyond the scope of the work leading to ibischk3 Version 3.1.0. He had been paid for the original work. The work for the extensions to ibischk3 Version 3.2.3 had to deal with some significant additions associate with 10 BIRDs (including the new [Submodel] mechanism) and many BUG reports. He had done the extension based on an agreement that he would be compensated at a later time. The amount of work adds up to $4168.00. Bob felt that that was a fair amount and called for a vote to authorize the EIA to pay for this when the formal invoice from Atul is received. Payment authorization to Atul Agarwal was approved by unanimous vote. Matthew Flora questioned whether this was a vote to ratify the parser. Bob stated that the parser still had the hp10 bug above, but suggested that the ratification vote be held at the next scheduled teleconference meeting (scheduled March 26, 1999). Bob expects that more work and revisions will be done to the parser as problems are reported, but it is sufficiently stable for ratification. Michael Cohen questioned whether ibischk3 included other versions of the parser. Bob Ross and others responded that ibischk3 is also referred as a parser, and it contains the functionality of IBIS Version 2.1 and IBIS Version 1.1 testing within the ibischk3 executable. Executables are available off of the IBIS FTP site, but source code is issued only to those companies who are funding the project. These companies have the benefit of the first release, and executables are not always produced for each release. TEKTRONIX IPA 510 SOFTWARE DISTRIBUTION PROPOSAL The remainer of the meeting was devoted to the Tektronix IPA 510 software distribution proposal. In order to deal with this topic, Bob Ross stated that we would follow Syed Huq's private suggestion using the sequence below: Briefly introduce the background and proposal Hear arguments favoring the proposal Hear arguments opposing the proposal Open the meeting to discussion and more arguments Conduct a vote Bob stated that the issue will be decided by majority vote of the official IBIS members at the meeting. Bob had not received notification of any new members. If there were a tie vote, the issue would be brought up the next teleconference for more discussion and another vote. Bob started by presenting the background. At the November 6, 1998 teleconference meeting Tektronix had proposed a free transfer to the IBIS Open Forum of the IPA 510 software product for parameter extraction based on time domain reflectometry measurements. The Forum would distribute both the executable and source code and provide support. Tektronix would retain the right to sell products based on this code or derivatives of it. The source code would be distributed only to people agreeing to provide back to the IBIS Open Forum the source code with any enhancements based on the code. After extensive discussion, the IBIS Open Forum approved distributing only the executable code, but had to resolve a few questions and needed refinement of the agreement before agreeing to distribute the source code. While in pursuit of some of these questions, a few objections were raised. The fundamental concern was whether it was appropriate for the IBIS Open Forum to distribute this software. This was discussed again at the November 20, 1998 meeting. The resolution was to continue discussion. At the January 15, 1999 meeting, the issue was again discussed. A vote was conducted with split resolution just as the meeting time was running out. Since these subsequent discussions were cut short because of other IBIS business or conducted under time pressure, we decided to raise the issue again at the February 19, 1999 meeting and schedule enough time for full discussion and resolution. Bob noted that there were no known barriers to accepting the proposal. The FTP site could be used for code distribution. The EIA legal department had given its approval. At least one person was identified to handle the source code distribution. We could develop appropriate processes for source code distribution and control. The executable was dongle-free, and documentation was included. in the product. In addition, Syed had investigated some other alternatives for source code distribution, but these did not look promising. Syed and Matthew Flora suggested that the issue first be constrained to only dealing with distribution of the executable. Bob agreed, although he expressed concern that one fundamental motivation for discussing the proposal was to make the source code available for improvement. Tom Brinkoetter discussed again why Tektronix was making the offer. Tektronix has discontinued the IPA 510 hardware and software product and no longer can provide support. In order to help the existing user community, Tektronix is interested in offering the product to the IBIS Open Forum and to help develop a self-supporting user community. Tom responded to a number of questions before having to leave for another committment. Stephen Peters questioned why the product could not just be offered from a Tektronix web site, and Tom responded that the Tektronix logo and location would convey implicit support. Tom clarified Bob's understanding that, the current product executable operates only on Windows 3.1 and Windows 95. It does not work on Windows NT. During the discussion, Bob read parts of the agreement for clarification. The arguments in favor of and against the proposal were presented by everyone and do not necessarily represent one's overall support or opposition to the proposal. Some are paraphrased to capture the essence. The arguments in favor: 1. Syed stated that the IPA 510 was a widely used tool. He found it relevant to IBIS for developing measurement based IBIS models. It was particularly useful for VT tables and for extracting the capacitance information. 2. Syed also stated that the support would be through voluntary effort similar to the support done for s2ibis. It would not be a burden on the IBIS Open Forum. Milt Schwartz reaffirmed this position. 3. Raj Raghuram indicated that this could be considered a free tool similar to s2ibis. 4. Matthew Flora argued that offering the utility had a positive effect on the market. Free utilities did not detract from commercial operations. (Examples could be Berkeley Spice versus commercial Spice, or free linux versus commercial linux.) Later it was argued that the free utility sets the "base-line" or level of expectation for commercial utilities. 5. Milt and Bob indicated that having the utility available would be a factor in educating the community on TDR and parameter extraction technology. 6. Greg Edlund also supported the TDR method as the simpler method for package model parameter extraction. 7. Later Syed argued that the executable itself would become obsolete within about two years as Windows 3.1 and Windows 95 systems were phased out. Arguments in opposition: 1. Stephen Peters was concerned that the IBIS Forum should not be responsible for distributing a product that competed with potential commercial products. It could undercut commercial attempts. Some discussion occurred that the other free utilities were issued when there were no commercial alternatives. 2. Stephen felt Tektronix should take direct responsibility in distributing the executable. 3. Bob cited a top level concern that the executable, unlike other free utilities, was not directly related to IBIS. 4. Bob was concerned that EIA and IBIS are industry funded organizations with high involvement with vendor-neutral standards development. IBIS should avoid situations which may favor one commercial venture over another. Distributing the utility risked having the IBIS Forum loose credibility by intruding into the commercial arena. 5. Dima Symolansky argued that substantial support was needed for potential bugs and technical issues. So rather than seeding the market, a bad experience with a free utility could discourage one from investigating a commercial alternative. 6. Bob felt that the support could be inadequate since better support of a product is available from a commercial organization where funding is involved (such as with ibischk3) Raj asked whether under the transfer agreement, the executable could be used in a commercial product (such as with a wrapper around it). This was discussed. Bob thought it was permissible, but was not sure. Others thought it might not be technically practical. Additional discussions and clarifications occurred and some other arguments may have been presented, but not captured. Upon completion, Bob called for a vote. The Tektronix proposal to have the IBIS Open Forum distribute the executable code was rejected by a 4 NO to 3 YES vote. It was determined that no other issues needed to be discussed regarding the Tektronix proposal. The meeting was concluded as time ran out. COOKBOOK STATUS (Not Discussed) IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION (Not Discussed) The old AR remains. AR - Matthew Flora to issue to the IBIS reflector a short write-up on the IBIS Model Review Committee. OLD TOPIC - BIRD56 - RELAXATION OF THE [Series Pin Mapping] RESTRICTION (Not discussed) The old AR remains. AR - Arpad Muranyi provide an IBIS model example for BIRD56. CONNECTOR PROPOSAL REVIEW (Not Discussed) ACCURACY SPECIFICATION REVIEW (Not Discussed) BUG34 - NO ERROR REPORTED FOR MISSING V/I TABLE IN OUTPUT BUFFERS This new item was not discussed. NEXT MEETING: The next meeting will be an IBIS Summit Meeting at DATE99 from 12 PM to to 6 PM on Tuesday, March 9, 1999 at the Astron Hotel in Munich, Germany. The following teleconference meeting will be on Friday, March 26, 1999 from 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM. ============================================================================== NOTES IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897 bob_ross@mentorg.com Modeling Engineer, Interconnectix BU of Mentor Graphics 8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070 VICE CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515 sjpeters@ichips.intel.com Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation M/S JF1-56 2111 NE 25th Ave. Hillsboro, Oregon 97124-5961 SECRETARY: Matthew Flora (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008 mbflora@hyperlynx.com Senior Engineer, HyperLynx, Inc. 17641 NE 67th Court Redmond, WA 98052 LIBRARIAN: Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259 jonp@qdt.com Senior Scientist, Viewlogic Systems (formerly Quad Design) 1385 Del Norte Rd., Camarillo, CA 93010 This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA Manual of Organization and Procedure. The following e-mail addresses are used: ibis-request@eda.org To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector (ibis@eda.org), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector (ibis-users@eda.org) or both. State your request. ibis-info@eda.org To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS Open Forum as a full Member. ibis@eda.org To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS technical enhancements. Job posting information is not permitted. ibis-users@eda.org To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and general user concerns. Job posting information is not permitted. ibischk-bug@eda.org To report ibischk2 parser bugs. The Bug Report Form Resides on eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs. To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt, /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, & /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt respectively. Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the Electronic Information Group under: http://www.eia.org Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous discussions and results. You can get on via FTP anonymous. ==============================================================================