DATE: 12/7/99 SUBJECT: 12/3/99 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes VOTING MEMBERS AND 1999 PARTICIPANTS LIST: Applied Simulation Technology Raj Raghuram*, Norio Matsui, Neven Orhanovic, Fred Ballesteri* Avanti Nikolai Bannov Cadence Design Mike LaBonte*, Todd Westerhoff Cisco Systems Syed Huq* Compaq Bob Haller, Steve Coe, Shafir Rahman, Maher Elasad, Peter LaFlamme, Doug Burns Cypress (Rajesh Manapat) EMC Corporation Fabrizio Zanella, Alex Nosovitski, Shan Haq Fairchild Semiconductor [Peter LaFlamme], Craig Klem, Graham Connolly, Christian Klein* H.A.S. Electronics (Haruny Said) Hewlett Packard (EEsof, etc.) Paul Gregory, Henry Wu HyperLynx (& Pads Software) Matthew Flora*, Kellee Crisafulli, Lynne Green, John Angulo*, Gene Garat, Robin Edwards IBM Greg Edlund*, Michael Cohen*, Praven Patel, Paul Clouser Incases Olaf Rethmeier, Werner Rissiek, David Eagles, Wilhelm Arnoldi, Ulrich Losch Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Frank Kern, Martin Chang, Dave Moxley, Kerry Nelson, Jeff Day, Richard Mellitz, Peter Liou, Will Hobbs, Henri Maramis LSI Logic (Symbios Logic) Scott King Mentor Graphics Bob Ross*, Mohamed Mahmoud, Sherif Hammad, Jean Oudinot, Markku Kukkanen, Martin Groeber, Karine Loudet, Hisham Gamal, Evgeny Wasserman, Tom Dagostino, Mohamed Nasef Mitsubishi (Tam Cao) Motorola Ron Werner* National Semiconductor Milt Schwartz* North East Systems Associates Edward Sayre, Michael Baxter, Kathy Breda, Ed Sayre III, Jinhua Chen NEC (Hiroshi Matsumoto) Nortel Networks Martin Hall (& at Viewlogic), Calvin Trowell* Ross Pryor Philips Semiconductor Todd Andersen, Peter Christiaans Quantic EMC (Mike Ventham) Siemens Bernhard Unger, Christian Mitschke, Manfred Maurer, Peter Kaiser, Wolfram Meyer, Gerald Bannert, Harmut Ibowski, Katja Zuleeg, Hans Pichlmaier, Eckhard Lenski, Kortheuer Udo, Christian Sporrer SiQual Scott McMorrow Texas Instruments Jean-Claude Perrin, Shankar Balasubramaniah, Ramzi Ammar, Thomas Fisher 3Com Roy Leventhal* Time Domain Analysis Systems Dima Smolyansky, Steven Corey Viewlogic Systems Chris Rokusek, Guy de Burgh*, Cary Mandel, (Jon Powell) VeriBest [Ian Dodd] Via Technologies (Weber Chuang) VLSI Technology D.C. Sessions OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1999: 3Dfx Interactive Ken Wu Actel Corporation Silvia Montoya Alcatel Steven Criel Analytical Edge Robert Easson Applied Microelectronics Brian Sanderson BMW Friedrich Haslinger Bogatin Enterprise Eric Bogatin Bosch Telecom Detlef Wolf Celestica Danny Da Silva Dynamics Research Corporation Mike Walsh ECI Telecom Daniel Adar EIA [Patti Rusher], Cecilia Fleming, Dan Heinemeier Electronique Catherine Gross EFM Consulting Ekkehard Miersch FCI John Ellis Foxcomm Jeff Walden General DataComm Laurence Michaels High Design Technology Razvan Ene Hitachi ULSI Hideki Fukuda Infineon Thomas Latzel Intracon Design Mike Osmond KAW Shinichi Maeda Litton Systems Robert Bremer Lucent Jason Pritchard Matsushita Atsuji Itoh Molex Incorporated Gus Panella* Newbridge Networks Bruce Carlile Oce Printing Systems Ernst Deiringer Praegitzer Design Rick Newell, Paul Galloway, Joe Socha Rockwell Collins Susan Tweeton, Ron Hau Rode Consulting Chris Rode Samsung Jung-Gun Byun, Cheol-Seung Choi Shindengen Tsuyoshi Horigome Signals & Systems Engineering Tom Hawkins STMicroelectronics Fabrice Boissieres, Philippe LeFevre Stratus Keith Vieira StorageTek Nick Krull Sun Microsystems Victor Chang Kevin Ko, Greg Fitzgerald, Nick LaPlaca Tektronix Tom Brinkoetter Teradyne Mikhail Khusid VDOL Robert Novosel Xilinx Susan Wu (Unaffiliated, Retired) Bruce Wenniger In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses. Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets. Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as follows: Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode December 17, 1999 (916) 356-9200 2-368942 8917482 All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas out 7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode. NOTE: "AR" = Action Required. -------------------------------- MINUTES ------------------------------------- INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM Bob Ross started the meeting and stated that there were the required number of companies present to establish a quorum. Bob Ross and Stephen Peters conducted the meeting. MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT Dues Statements to be sent out in mid December. Several companies joined late and will be billed just the difference for year 2000. Another company is joining. We are waiting the receipt of the purchase order before officially announcing the company. REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S The November 11, 1999 IBIS Open Forum Meeting minutes were approved without change. The AR's will be discussed during the meeting. MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS None. PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES Syed Huq has updated the roster for Nortel and, the Siemens URL and the link to the IMIC document. NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE Jon Powell uploaded a new Model Page and put in links to the company home site and also to models. Jon discovered a changed link for Infineon Technologies: http://www.infineon.com/products/memory/appl/models/3177.htm Send comments and new links to Jon. He will do another update over Christmas vacation. OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES None INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS - IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 3.2) - Bob Ross had no further progress report from Cecilia Fleming. However formal ratification of IBIS Version 3.2 as IEC 62104-1 is still expect shortly (a month or less). - pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits (IMIC) - Bob Ross had no further report and repeated from last meeting that a Version 1.2 has been posted for review with a deadline of December 25, 1999. Note added after the meeting: the link to the document has been moved and is now located at the bottom of: http://tsc.eiaj.or.jp/eds/iopg.htm - IEC PWI 93-1 Models of Integrated Circuits for EMI Behavioral Simulation (formerly designated as IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation) - Bob Ross had no report. - JC-16.2 Subcommittee: Modeling and Test - Bob Ross had no report. DESIGNCON 2000 IBIS SUMMIT PLANNING Bob Ross reported that Jon Powell sent out a request for Member Companies to to provide an 8-1/2 by 11 inch logo on a hard board (foam) for display at the IBIS booth. There is a possibility that Bob Haller will arrange a new accuracy demonstration for the booth. Bob Ross and Milt Schwartz are preparing the initial announcement to be sent out in early to mid December. Bob Ross stated that the IBIS Summit meeting is being held on Monday, January 31, 2000 in Santa Clara, California. The IBIS Open Forum is listed again as an Associate Sponsor of DesignCon 2000 which means that DesignCon is providing the meeting room and refreshments and also booth space. Milt Schwartz offered that National Semiconductor is sponsoring again the buffet luncheon. He also stated that presenters may send him electronic copies, and National Semiconductor will make copies available at the meeting. Bob indicated that Jon Powell will be providing the booth and coordinating the setup. He plans again to have IBIS Open Forum member companylogos posted on the backdrop. It will be a place to meet, pick up literature, and possibly host an electronic accuracy demonstration. Bob stated plans that we will be sending out the first notice in early December. We do have several presentations and will plan on some extended discussions on some of the new topics that are now being considered. DATE2000 IBIS SUMMIT PLANNING Bob Ross commented that the DATE2000 IBIS Summit meeting associated with the Design Automation and Testing in Europe conference is still planned to be held in Paris, France on Friday, March 31, 2000. The meeting will end early in the afternoon to allow attendees to fly back that evening. Mentor Graphics and Incases are co-sponsors, but others are expected. The PCB Symposium is scheduled for Thursday, March 30, 2000. COOKBOOK STATUS Stephen Peters had no report. IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION No new models. S2IBIS3 PROPOSAL DISCUSSION Bob Ross raised the issue of whether IBIS should fund projects that conflict with commercial projects. Michael Cohen gave a short history of the committee. They have had several meetings and have produced a document for review. The document resides in the IBIS Home Page under s2ibis3 Project: http://www.eia.org/eig/ibis/ibis.htm or directly from http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/s2ibis3/ A note was sent to the IBIS and SI relectors inviting reviews of the document. Mike Cohen noted that there were no real value responses except from one person. Bob Ross drafted a cover letter for potential bidders. Mike Cohen will review it and send to the committee next week. Bob Ross noted that we are now at the next step. One of the options is to stop here. The other option, which is the committee's intention, is to see if anyone wants to build a S2IBIS3 product that conforms to the document. Bob Ross added that, for a number of years, we have had Spice to IBIS 2 from North Carolina that was created under a Darpa contract. This was then turned over to the IBIS committee. Bob Ross continued that before we send out the bid we should decide whether or not to go forward. The issue is that we do have one commercial product that deals with Spice to IBIS conversion. It is not a free product like the North Carolina, but is a better product. The product in question is from Applied Simulation Technology. It is a public product. Furthermore Applied Simulation Technology are a voting member of the IBIS committee. Bob Ross noted that this project would conflict with a commercial interest. Bob Ross then asked if anyone has any arguments in favor of requesting bids to fund the S2IBIS3 project. Mike Cohen said that he does not see this product conflicting with the currently existing commercial product. Mike said there are reasons to have both, and it gives the smaller companies a tool to generate IBIS without spending too much money. Mike said that it is not a conflict because it furthers the IBIS specifcation. Stephen Peters noted that we faced a similar situation with a parameter extraction product from Tektronix. The IBIS committee at that time rejected that proposal, thereby setting a precedent. Mike Cohen pointed out that there were differences between that situation and this one. Bob Ross gave a history of S2IBIS2. The existing Spice to IBIS code (originally from North Carolina) is freeware, and served its purpose of helping to develop IBIS models. It has been used as a seed for companies to modify for their own flavor of Spice. It was never intended to be a commercial product. It was never of commercial quality. Bob noted that IBIS has been in this arena for a long time, and should maintain and upgrade the product to support the latest IBIS specification. Syed Huq noted that there were no commercial alternatives to S2IBIS and S2IBIS2 when these programs were developed. This shareware is being used by the majority of the model developed developers. The proposal, S2IBIS3, is really bug fixing and extending it to IBIS version 3. Commercial solutions are always welcome, but it is up to the user community to decide whether they want commercially available software or freeware from the IBIS forum. Syed continued that this is a logical progression of things that we have been doing for a long time and gave, as an example, that the free Berkeley Spice has not prevented the success of commercial Spice programs. Ron Werner noted that shareware shows proof of concept, and companies can use it and expand on it. He further noted that given that amount of time and the number of people that are using S2IBIS2 that he is not too excited about putting out bids and paying somebody to upgrade the product that is there. Arpad Muranyi noted that S2IBIS has some issues, and a commercial product has better quality. The plan is make S2IBIS2 more user friendly and fix the bugs. Arpad expressed concern as to how much money the IBIS forum can put into S2IBIS3. Roy Leventhal asked if by having a piece of shareware for free will that prevent commercial vendors taking it, improving it, and selling it, and does the lack of the shareware have an impact on the adoption of IBIS. Bob Ross noted that the lack of shareware has not affected the adoption of IBIS. He also noted that the freeware does not prevent commercial vendors from making their own improvements. Roy Leventhal mentioned that he has trouble getting IBIS models and that the lack of a S2IBIS converter doesn't seem to affect that. Stephen Peters mentioned that the presence or lack of a S2IBIS converter does not affect the availability of models, but the issue is the quality of the models from the S2IBIS converter. Bob Ross noted that if it was the intent of the IBIS committee to sell this product then we do not have any business being in this arena. IBIS is a public consortium generating public standards and offering free tools. It is not in the business of creating a commercially available product. Syed Huq noted that one of the enablers for vendors to create IBIS models is the S2IBIS tool. S2IBIS3 will be an enabler to further generate more models. Bob Ross noted that we have an obligation to maintain the current S2IBIS tool. Withdrawing it is not a option. Ron Werner suggested that there should be some enticement for commercial people to improve S2IBIS. Matt Flora wanted to hear a discussion of what we think would be the result of not funding an S2IBIS3 and wanted to know if we would be having this debate if no commercial product currently existed. Fred Ballesteri noted that IBIS actively promotes S2IBIS, unlike Berkeley which does not promote Spice. This active promotion is stifling commercial vendors from producing their own. He noted that it is not fair to take ideas from his company's product and exploit them by implementing them in S2IBIS3. S2IBIS3, a free product, is in competition with commercial products. He noted that, in his view, that S2IBIS has done more to hurt IBIS than help it. He further noted that IBIS is in this predicament because IBIS has been promoting a tool that does not reflect the current state of IBIS. Bob Ross noted that the IBIS committee has been very supportive of commercial entries. He suggested that this be put to a formal vote at the next meeting. CONNECTOR PROPOSAL REVIEW Bob Ross gave an overview of the specification. He mentioned the links on the Web to the specication and the samples. The specification is going to be considered as a separate document and is intended to describe connectors only and currently only lossless connectors. There is a lot of similarity with IBIS but a lot of differences as well. Gus Panella pointed out that the uploaded samples were generated under the original specification proposal (0.31) and may have some minor deviation from the 0.92 specification. Arpad Murani suggested that we should set a goal in setting a time for resolution of this proposal, and whether this proposal should be standalone or part of the IBIS specication. Arpad noted that the connector specification is about two years late, and he would like to be included as soon as possible. Bob Ross noted that the document needs to be reviewed, discussed and voted on. He mentioned that with this in mind the best target date would be Q1/2000, and this is an estimate. Gus Panella noted, along with Bob Ross, that a separate specification is the quickest way to go, initially. It could be incorporated later. Gus noted that both he and Kellee Chrisafulli encourage reflector discussion. The latest documents are available from the EIA IBIS Home page and: http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/connector/ Gus clarified that this is a lossless model, but a lossy model could be made using the cascaded multiline matrix. A frequency dependent matrix will be included later. Stephen Peters and Gus Panella clarified how the lossy model could be implemented. Stephen Peters mentioned that Bob Ross wanted a review committee to take a look at the specification. Stephen asked for volunteers. Matthew Flora asked what the reaction of the connector vendors to the specification has been. Gus Panella responded that a number of companies have reviewed it, and that it conforms to their modeling process fairly well. Matthew Flora mentioned that Bob Ross had a good idea of trying to create models for real connectors rather than contrived connectors. Gus Panella discussed the examples and verification process. He outlined the method of taking a real connector and making a model out of it. Matthew Flora asked once the specification is ratified how quickly will models become available. Gus Panella responded that Molex is making models. Stephen Peters asked how simulator companies will respond to this specification. Matthew Flora said he assumed HyperLynx would since they were so involved in the specification. Raj Raghuram felt it would not be very difficult to add. Gus Panella pointed out that the inductance handling might be a little bit different from current implementations. He said that he feels support will be more of a simulator issue than a model building issue. Raj Raghuram suggested that the capacitance matrices may be harder to implement that the inductances. Stephen Peters encouraged everyone to review the specification. NEXT MEETING: The next teleconference meeting will be on Friday, December 17, 1999 from 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM. Stephen Peters closed the meeting. ============================================================================== NOTES IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897 bob_ross@mentor.com Modeling Engineer, Mentor Graphics 8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070 VICE CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515 sjpeters@ichips.intel.com Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation M/S JF1-209 2111 NE 25th Ave. Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961 SECRETARY: Guy de Burgh (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259 gdeburgh@viewlogic.com Senior Manager, Viewlogic Systems 1369 Del Norte Rd. Camarillo, CA 93010-8437 LIBRARIAN: Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259 jpowell@viewlogic.com Senior Scientist, Viewlogic Systems 1369 Del Norte Rd. Camarillo, CA 93010 WEBMASTER: Syed Huq (408) 525-3399, Fax: (408) 526-5504 shuq@cisco.com Signal Integrity Engineer, Cisco Systems 170 West Tasman Drive San Jose, CA 95134-1706 POSTMASTER: Matthew Flora (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008 mbflora@hyperlynx.com Senior Engineer, HyperLynx, Inc. 114715 N.E. 95th Street Redmond, WA 98052 This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA Manual of Organization and Procedure. The following e-mail addresses are used: ibis-request@eda.org To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector (ibis@eda.org), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector (ibis-users@eda.org) or both. State your request. ibis-info@eda.org To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS Open Forum as a full Member. ibis@eda.org To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS technical enhancements. Job posting information is not permitted. ibis-users@eda.org To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and general user concerns. Job posting information is not permitted. ibischk-bug@eda.org To report ibischk2/3 parser bugs. The Bug Report Form Resides on eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs. To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt, /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, & /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt respectively. Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the Electronic Information Group under: http://www.eia.org/eig/ibis/ibis.htm Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous discussions and results. You can get on via FTP anonymous. ==============================================================================