DATE: 12/21/99 SUBJECT: 12/17/99 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes VOTING MEMBERS AND 1999 PARTICIPANTS LIST: 3Com Roy Leventhal* Applied Simulation Technology Raj Raghuram*, Norio Matsui, Neven Orhanovic, Fred Ballesteri* Avanti Nikolai Bannov Cadence Design Mike LaBonte*, Todd Westerhoff Cisco Systems Syed Huq* Compaq Bob Haller*, Steve Coe, Shafir Rahman, Maher Elasad, Peter LaFlamme, Doug Burns Cypress (Rajesh Manapat) EMC Corporation Fabrizio Zanella, Alex Nosovitski, Shan Haq Fairchild Semiconductor [Peter LaFlamme], Craig Klem, Graham Connolly, Christian Klein* H.A.S. Electronics (Haruny Said) Hewlett Packard (EEsof, etc.) Paul Gregory, Henry Wu HyperLynx (& Pads Software) Matthew Flora*, Kellee Crisafulli*, Lynne Green, John Angulo*, Gene Garat, Robin Edwards IBM Greg Edlund, Michael Cohen*, Praven Patel, Paul Clouser Incases Olaf Rethmeier, Werner Rissiek, David Eagles, Wilhelm Arnoldi, Ulrich Losch Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Frank Kern, Martin Chang, Dave Moxley, Kerry Nelson, Jeff Day, Richard Mellitz, Peter Liou, Will Hobbs, Henri Maramis LSI Logic (Symbios Logic) Scott King Mentor Graphics Bob Ross*, Mohamed Mahmoud, Sherif Hammad, Jean Oudinot, Markku Kukkanen, Martin Groeber, Karine Loudet, Hisham Gamal, Evgeny Wasserman, Tom Dagostino, Mohamed Nasef Mitsubishi (Tam Cao) Motorola Ron Werner* National Semiconductor Milt Schwartz* North East Systems Associates Edward Sayre, Michael Baxter, Kathy Breda, Ed Sayre III, Jinhua Chen NEC (Hiroshi Matsumoto) Nortel Networks Martin Hall (& at Viewlogic), Calvin Trowell, Ross Pryor Philips Semiconductor Todd Andersen, Peter Christiaans Quantic EMC (Mike Ventham) Siemens Bernhard Unger, Christian Mitschke, Manfred Maurer, Peter Kaiser, Wolfram Meyer, Gerald Bannert, Harmut Ibowski, Katja Zuleeg, Hans Pichlmaier, Eckhard Lenski, Kortheuer Udo, Christian Sporrer SiQual Scott McMorrow Texas Instruments Jean-Claude Perrin*, Shankar Balasubramaniah, Ramzi Ammar, Thomas Fisher Time Domain Analysis Systems Dima Smolyansky*, Steven Corey Viewlogic Systems Chris Rokusek, Guy de Burgh*, Cary Mandel, (Jon Powell) VeriBest (Mentor Graphics) [Ian Dodd] Via Technologies (Weber Chuang) VLSI Technology (Philips) D.C. Sessions* OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1999: 3Dfx Interactive Ken Wu Actel Corporation Silvia Montoya Alcatel Steven Criel Analytical Edge Robert Easson Applied Microelectronics Brian Sanderson BMW Friedrich Haslinger Bogatin Enterprise Eric Bogatin Bosch Telecom Detlef Wolf Celestica Danny Da Silva Dynamics Research Corporation Mike Walsh ECI Telecom Daniel Adar EIA [Patti Rusher], Cecilia Fleming*, Dan Heinemeier Electronique Catherine Gross EFM Consulting Ekkehard Miersch FCI John Ellis Foxcomm Jeff Walden General DataComm Laurence Michaels High Design Technology Razvan Ene Hitachi ULSI Hideki Fukuda Infineon Thomas Latzel Intracon Design Mike Osmond KAW Shinichi Maeda Litton Systems Robert Bremer Lucent Jason Pritchard Matsushita Atsuji Itoh Molex Incorporated Gus Panella Newbridge Networks Bruce Carlile Oce Printing Systems Ernst Deiringer Praegitzer Design Rick Newell, Paul Galloway, Joe Socha Rockwell Collins Susan Tweeton, Ron Hau Rode Consulting Chris Rode Samsung Jung-Gun Byun, Cheol-Seung Choi Shindengen Tsuyoshi Horigome Signals & Systems Engineering Tom Hawkins STMicroelectronics Fabrice Boissieres, Philippe LeFevre Stratus Keith Vieira StorageTek Nick Krull Sun Microsystems Victor Chang, Kevin Ko, Greg Fitzgerald, Nick LaPlaca Tektronix Tom Brinkoetter Teradyne Mikhail Khusid VDOL Robert Novosel Xilinx Susan Wu (Unaffiliated, Retired) Bruce Wenniger In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses. Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets. Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as follows: Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode January 14, 2000 (916) 356-9200 5-169351 4378912 January 31, 2000 - DesignCon 2000 IBIS Summit Meeting (No Bridge) All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas out 7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode. NOTE: "AR" = Action Required. -------------------------------- MINUTES ------------------------------------- INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM Bob Ross started the meeting and stated that there were the required number of companies present to establish a quorum. MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT Bob Ross reported that 3Com has officially joined the EIA IBIS Open Forum making the end of the year membership at 33. Cecilia Fleming reported that invoices for year 2000 membership have been mailed. REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S Bob Ross corrected the attendee list in the December 3, 1999 Minutes to include Fred Ballesteri and not include Bob Haller. Bob also made some format improvements and other minor changes to avoid line wrap in printing. The December 3, 1999 IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes were approved with the above changes. The AR's will be discussed during the meeting. MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS Bob Ross stated that these Minutes contain the final 1999 participation list. Similarly in any previous year, the last minutes of that year contain the participation list for that year. The next minutes will start a new list of year 2000 participation. PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES Syed Huq reported a Compaq logo update on the Poster and some minor roster changes on the Poster and IBIS Roster Listing links of the official IBIS Home page. Bob Ross reported that DesignCon2000 has a presentation by Syed Huq on "Solving SI Issues with IBIS Models in High-Speed Applications." NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE Bob Ross reported that Jon Powell plans to do some updates to the Models link of the IBIS Home Page over Christmas vacation. (Send updates to him at the address at the end of the Minutes.) OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES None INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS - IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 3.2) - Cecilia Fleming is still waiting for word on the formal ratification of IBIS Version 3.2 as IEC 62104-1. - pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits (IMIC) - Bob Ross had no further report and repeated from last meeting that a Version 1.2 has been posted for review with a deadline of December 25, 1999. Note added after the meeting: the link to the document has been moved and is now located at the bottom of: http://tsc.eiaj.or.jp/eds/iopg.htm - IEC PWI 93-1 Models of Integrated Circuits for EMI Behavioral Simulation (formerly designated as IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation) - Jean-Claude Perrin reported that a document is still in preparation. He will request Bob Ross to review it, when available. - JC-16.2 Subcommittee: Modeling and Test - Bob Ross reported that the D.C. Sessions is the new Chair of JEDEC JC-16 and wants to work closely with the IBIS Open Forum. DESIGNCON 2000 IBIS SUMMIT PLANNING Bob Ross stated that the IBIS Summit meeting is being held on Monday, January 31, 2000 in Santa Clara, California. The IBIS Open Forum is listed again as an Associate Sponsor of DesignCon 2000 which means that DesignCon is providing the meeting room and refreshments and also booth space. National Semiconductor is sponsoring the luncheon. Milt Schwartz reported that has sent out the first announcement. He has received about 5 responses so far, and about 10 people at the meeting indicated that they plan to attend. So it looks like we are on track for about 50 participants. We will send out another notice in early January. The program is being formed and may (tentatively) include these topics: Lynne Green - "Model Design: Tables and Equations" Donald Telium - "Input Receiver Modeling" Gus Panella - "Connector Model Specification" Bob Haller/Greg Edlund - "Accuracy Specification" Stephen Peters - "Discussion on the Future of IBIS" Jon Powell is handling the IBIS booth and logos. Also Bob Haller may have and Accuracy board demonstration. DATE2000 IBIS SUMMIT PLANNING Bob Ross reported that Viewlogic has joined Incases and Mentor Graphics as co-sponsors. Bob reviewed that the DATE2000 IBIS Summit meeting associated with the Design Automation and Testing in Europe conference is still planned to be held in Paris, France on Friday, March 31, 2000. The meeting will end early in the afternoon to allow attendees to fly back that evening. The PCB Symposium is scheduled for Thursday, March 30, 2000. COOKBOOK STATUS Stephen Peters had no report. IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION No new models. S2IBIS3 PROPOSAL DISCUSSION Bob Ross opened the discussion by summarizing the previous meeting discussion. The question raised was whether the IBIS Open Forum should fund the development of a s2ibis3 utility which will compete commercial utilities. A decision is needed to before moving forward to get bids on doing the project based on the recently issued requirements document. The s2ibis and s2ibis2 projects were done at North Carolina State University under DARPA and private funding. The purpose was to seed the development of IBIS Models. The utility was a prototype and was never was intended to be of commercial quality. In fact, it was turned over to the IBIS Open Forum for support since the student developers could not provide the support. Later in the meeting, Kellee Chrisafulli shared historical background that he originally pushed for the idea of a automatic Spice to IBIS translation utility in the IBIS Committee that initiated the project. Bob stated some of the arguments regarding funding advanced at the last meeting: Pro: The s2ibis freeware was first and is used by many developers The IBIS Open Forum has an obligation to maintain the utility This will improve the quality of models since it is widely used Freeware does not hurt commercial tools (e.g., Berkeley Spice) Helps promote IBIS Version 3.2 This is really a bug fix project that extends to IBIS Version 3.2 Con: We already have rejected a Tektronix proposal with commercial conflicts The IBIS Open Forum actually supports commercial solutions This may be very expensive Active promotion of free tools is bad for commercial tools It is not fair to commercial vendors who have already invested the time and money, and then to user similar ideas The IBIS Committee would be better served to provide enticements to commercial vendors to improve their tools Also added: The commercial product was introduced at DesignCon99 before the Spice to IBIS Committee was formed The IBIS Open Forum should have started the program earlier (before the commercial announcement) Bob then asked for any more discussion. Not all of the points are captured here. Kellee Chrisafulli argued that the IBIS Open Forum initiated the s2ibis projects and that it was appropriate and relevant to advance it. Furthermore, he argued that deferring to one vendor's implementation gave that vendor a monopoly. Matthew Flora was concerned about the extent that the s2ibis3 committee used the commercial implementation as the basis of the proposal. Michael Cohen clarified that the improvements were made without knowing the details of the commercial implementation. However, there was visibility of the IBIS Center Utility internal to Intel and the GUI from Cadence. The main intent was to provide bug fixes. Arpad Muranyi was concerned about any possible patent protection. Bob did not think this was a problem. Stephen Peters was concerned that the project implies rewriting the code versus just fixing it. There was more of a flavor of a new project than just a bug fix. Raj Raghuran pointed out that the IBIS Open Forum did not actually fund the original projects. Kellee indicated that it might have done so if other funding was not available. There was some discussion on how s2ibis3 funding is similar or different than ibischk3 funding and whether the s2ibis3 utility is crucial to model development and promoting IBIS Version 3.2. Ron Werner pointed out that EIA Committees can fund proof of concept tools, but should defer to commercial tools. Arpad argued that the enhancements will give a better tool to the users and will make the production of better IBIS models possible. Kellee and Raj discussed from different points of view that the market for a commercial s2ibis3 tools is small. Without the s2ibis3 utility, one vendor could dominate. However, because of the small market, a free tool could stifle any commercial entry. Commercial competition in even a small market is possible and healthy. Bob indicated that some company model development services provide a different type of commercial competition. Kellee suggested that the IBIS Home Page provide a link to the commercial utility. Bob stated that we do not promote commercial products. However, the companies can provide information from Poster page link and also give some general descriptions in the Roster page link. Raj presented the analogy that if the IBIS Open Forum were considering funding a free reference IBIS Simulator that competed with commercial simulators, there would be objection. A reference simulator would "standardize" consistent operation and would be competitive to the higher cost commercial solutions that exist. The relevance and critical need for such an IBIS simulator is similar to the s2ibis3 project needs. Bob clarified that a vote not to fund the work does not prevent non-funded volunteer work to fix or improve the existing utility and offer it to the community. Bob Ross called for a vote on whether the IBIS Open Forum should move forward and ask for bids on the s2ibis3 development that would require EIA IBIS Open Forum funding. The motion was defeated by a vote of 4 Yes, 7 No and 3 Abstaining. (The number of abstentions is corrected to 4 after the meeting.) ---- Addition after the January 14, 2000 Meeting - The vote by membership was: YES - Cisco Systems, HyperLynx, IBM, National Semiconductor, NO - 3Com, Applied Simulation Technology, Cadence Systems, Intel, Motorola, Time Domain Analysis Systems, VLSI Technology (Philips Semiconductor) ABSTAIN - Compaq, Fairchild Semiconductor, Mentor Graphics, Viewlogic Systems NOT PRESENT - Texas Instruments ---- Michael Cohen disbanded the s2ibis3 sub-committee and thanked the participants for their fine work in drafting the requirements specification. Others also thanked the sub-committee for their work. CONNECTOR PROPOSAL REVIEW In the remaining time, Bob Ross invited some further discussion on the Connector Specification. Bob stated that he had become more familiar with the document, but did not have time to write comments, as previously intended. Arpad Muranyi had just issued some comments. Bob provided a document overview. Out of the 33 pages, about 6 pages are devoted to header and syntax rules similar those in the IBIS Standard, 12 pages describe connector model keywords, and about 15 pages define the matrices and swath matrix concept. Bob asked Kellee Chrisafulli to discuss and clarify the swath matrix. Kellee indicated that it is intended to provide a more compact, but possibly less accurate description based on expanding a small representative section. The connector vendors needed this capability because they did not intend to separate models for each of the many pin configurations for each connector. Outer edge columns or rows were intended to be simulated with paths terminated by a specified [Cn_Z] impedance to approximate the surrounding environment. Mike LaBonte commented the [Cn_Grid_Swath] keyword was more general and eliminated the need for [Cn_Horizontal_Swath] and [Cn_Vertical_Swath] keywords. It would help implementors to have fewer choices. Kellee stated that there were additional reasons for the other keywords. Kellee also noted that a complete physical representation of the connector is possible without using the swath matrix approach. Arpad Muranyi commented that it would be helpful to have a syntax map diagram to help sort out the syntax details and rules in the document. Bob ended the discussion to allow some comments regarding the next Agenda item. IBIS FUTURES (IBIS-X, API, BIRDxx) Stephen Peters summarized that there has been recent reflector discussion with good ideas. The range of proposals include formalized Spice-like language to application program interface (API). He commented that he approached the problem by considering a high pin count component from a net centric point of view with drivers and receivers on the nets. With such an approach, the enhanced model would handle details including package details and pin coupling better. Arpad Muranyi stated that we need more time to discuss this subject. Bob Ross stated that this topic will be moved ahead of the Connector Specification discussion in the next meeting Agenda. NEXT MEETING: The next teleconference meeting will be on Friday, January 14, 2000 from 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM. ============================================================================== NOTES IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897 bob_ross@mentor.com Modeling Engineer, Mentor Graphics 8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070 VICE CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515 sjpeters@ichips.intel.com Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation M/S JF1-209 2111 NE 25th Ave. Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961 SECRETARY: Guy de Burgh (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259 gdeburgh@viewlogic.com Senior Manager, Viewlogic Systems 1369 Del Norte Rd. Camarillo, CA 93010-8437 LIBRARIAN: Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259 jpowell@viewlogic.com Senior Scientist, Viewlogic Systems 1369 Del Norte Rd. Camarillo, CA 93010 WEBMASTER: Syed Huq (408) 525-3399, Fax: (408) 526-5504 shuq@cisco.com Signal Integrity Engineer, Cisco Systems 170 West Tasman Drive San Jose, CA 95134-1706 POSTMASTER: Matthew Flora (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008 mbflora@hyperlynx.com Senior Engineer, HyperLynx, Inc. 114715 N.E. 95th Street Redmond, WA 98052 This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA Manual of Organization and Procedure. The following e-mail addresses are used: ibis-request@eda.org To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector (ibis@eda.org), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector (ibis-users@eda.org) or both. State your request. ibis-info@eda.org To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS Open Forum as a full Member. ibis@eda.org To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS technical enhancements. Job posting information is not permitted. ibis-users@eda.org To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and general user concerns. Job posting information is not permitted. ibischk-bug@eda.org To report ibischk2/3 parser bugs. The Bug Report Form Resides on eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs. To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt, /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, & /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt respectively. Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the Electronic Information Group under: http://www.eia.org/eig/ibis/ibis.htm Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous discussions and results. You can get on via FTP anonymous. ==============================================================================