Date: 8/28/00 SUBJECT: 8/25/00 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes VOTING MEMBERS AND 2000 PARTICIPANTS LIST: 3Com Roy Leventhal Agilent (EEsof, etc.) Mark Chang Ansoft Corporation (Eric Bracken) Applied Simulation Technology Raj Raghuram, Norio Matsui, Fred Balistreri Avanti Nikolai Bannov Cadence Design Mike LaBonte*, Todd Westerhoff, Ian Dodd*, Donald Telian, Patrick Dos Santos Cisco Systems Syed Huq, Irfan Elahi, John Fisher Compaq [Bob Haller], Peter LaFlamme, Ron Bellomio, Shafier Rahman, Doug Burns Cypress (Rajesh Manapat) EMC Corporation (Fabrizio Zanella), Fairchild Semiconductor Craig Klem HyperLynx (& Pads Software) Matthew Flora*, Kellee Crisafulli, Gene Garat, John Angulo*, Al Davis, Lynne Green IBM Michael Cohen*, Greg Edlund, Jerry Hayes Innoveda (Viewlogic Systems) Chris Rokusek, Guy de Burgh*, Jun Tian, Cary Mandel, Brad Griffin, (Jon Powell) Intel Corporation Stephen Peters, Arpad Muranyi*, Will Hobbs, Richard Mellitz, Charles Phares, Meir Nakar, Sigeti Gabi, Tudor Secasiu*, Dave Lorang* LSI Logic (Larry Barnes) Mentor Graphics (& Veribest) Bob Ross*, Tom Dagostino, Malcolm Ash, Kim Owen, Jean Oudinot, Sherif Hammad, Hazam Hegazy, Weston Beal, Ken Bakalar Micron Technology (Randy Wolff) Mitsubishi Shahab Ahmed, Carleen Murphy Molex Incorporated Gus Panella Motorola Ron Werner National Semiconductor Milt Schwartz* North East Systems Associates Edward Sayre, Tony Sinker Nortel Networks Steve Coe, Calvin Trowell, Hassan Ali Philips Semiconductor D.C. Sessions*, Todd Andersen (& VLSI Technology) Quantic EMC (Mike Ventham) Robinson-Nugent, Inc. (Alexander Barr) Siemens AG Bernhard Unger, Gerald Bannert SiQual Scott McMorrow, Wis Macomson Texas Instruments Stephen Nolan, Ramzi Ammar, Mac McCaughey, Thomas Fisher, Jean-Claude Perrin, Jean-Yves Oberle Time Domain Analysis Systems Dima Smolyansky, Steven Corey Tyco Electronics (AMP) (Russell Moser) Via Technologies (Weber Chuang) Zuken (& Incases) Werner Rissiek, John Berrie OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 2000: Actel Corp. Silvia Montoya Advansis Mikio Kiyono Aerospatiale Matra CCR Lionel Dreux, Julien Boullie Alcatel (Lannion, Bell) Daniel Peron, Steven Criel Brocade Communications Robert Badal ECI Telecom Daniel Adar EIA Cecilia Fleming* Fraunhofer Institute Michael Kurten Jet Propulsion Lab John Treichlew Hewlett Packard Paul Gregory Rockwell Collins Ron Hau Signals & Systems Engineering Tom Hawkins ST Micorelectronics Fabrice Boissiere, Pierre Saintot Sun Microsystems Victor Chang Thomson-CSF Savenrio Lerose, Pascal Vaslin, Thierry Zak, Sylvie Lasserre Transfer Hans Klos, Wilco Hamhuis Xilinx, Inc. Susan Wu Independent, Consultant Hideki Fukuda In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses. Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets. Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as follows: Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode September 14, 2000 IBIS Summit Meeting - No Teleconference All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas out 7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode. NOTE: "AR" = Action Required. -------------------------------- MINUTES ------------------------------------- INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM Tudor Secasiu of Intel in Oregon joined. Tudor is in the Technical Research Laboratory working on electrical design of high speed interfaces. He is interested in portability of models. Dave Lorang of Intel in Arizona is in a signal integrity group working on AGP interfaces. He uses IBIS models and wants to get up to speed on simulation and modeling issues. MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT Bob Ross announced that Micron Technology has joined the EIA IBIS Open Forum (listed as a Voting Member in these Minutes). We now have 34 members. REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S The August 11, 2000 IBIS Minutes were approved. The AR's will be discussed during the meeting. MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS Bob Ross reported that there is some restructing at EIA and that the EIA standards groups are now positioned under GEIA. Cecilia Fleming stated that this should not have any impact on us. We are still part of an offically accredited standards producing organization. PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES Bob Ross reported that there are on-going roster updates as we get new members and other entry updates. Bob also reported on an academic presentation on "Behavioral Modeling of Digital Devices via Black-Box Identification" by F.G. Canaverl, I.A. Maio, and I.S. Sievano from the Politecnico di Torino, Torino, Italy presented at the May, 2000 IEEE Workshop on Signal Propagation on Interconnects. The paper includes references to IBIS modeling and is at: http://www.eln.polito.it/Ricerca/emc/papers.html and the presentation is at: http://gauss.tet.uni-hannover.de/SPI/2000/pres2000.htm Cecilia Fleming asked the group if they had experienced the "sticky" IBIS home page link when the original URL is given: http://www.eia.org/eig/ibis/ibis.htm The "Back" does not work. D.C. Sessions commented that this is a known Netscape only browser limitation that occurs when a link is aliased from another link. The new IBIS home page link is: http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis.htm and the original link now redirects itself to the new link. Thus old links in other web pages to the EIA Open Forum home page still work, but one cannot escape back to the higher page. The Netscape solution is to hold the "Back" button and get a list of previous links to select. Usually the second selection gets you back to the calling page. So there is no further action needed by Cecilia to fix the problem. NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE Mike LaBonte updated the IBIS Model page. He now has a Perl script for checking the links, which saves him time as more model links are documented. He also reports to various vendors problems in their models. OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES Several were raised during the meeting: Cecilia Fleming on Sticky IBIS home page review - covered in the Press and Web Page Updates section Mike Labonte on waveform warnings from ibischk3 - covered in the ibischk3 Bug Tracking section Others on IBIS-X instead of IBIS Version 4.0 and the IBIS Connector Specification - covered in the IBIS Futures section INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS - IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 3.2) - Cecilia Fleming reported there has been communication between EIA and IEC on the progress of a number of standards. Bob Ross stated that we will probably still need to help draft some header information. - pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits (IMIC) - No report. - IEC PWI 93-1 Models of Integrated Circuits for EMI Behavioral Simulation (formerly designated as IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation) - Bob Ross had no report and restated that he is waiting for some updated information that he can upload or distribute. - JEDEC JC-16 - Modeling and Testing - D.C. Sessions reported that the next meeting will be in Denver on September 13. Other related groups (JC-40, JC-42) will also be meeting that week. The main activities of interest are work on SSTL-1.8 and DDR 2. Anyone on the IBIS committee is welcome to attend, D.C. Sessions will provide the Chairman's invitation required for non JEDEC members. (Contact D.C. Sessions at dc.sessions@vlsi.com.) Cecilia Fleming and D.C. noted that IBIS meetings may overlap with JEDEC, but may be at different locations. Cecilia provided Bob Ross a list of JEDEC meeting sites and locations through the end of 2001 so that we might co-locate meetings. Normally IBIS meetings are co-located with major trade shows in which EDA vendors traditionally participate. However, future working group meetings could consider co-locating with some of the JEDEC meetings. D.C. added that JEDEC usually negotiates great hotel rates. The list is future JEDEC meeting locations are: September 12, 2000 Denver, Colorado December 5 , 2000 Hawaii March 6, 2001 San Diego, California June 5, 2001 Tokyo (location not definite) September 11, 2001 Las Vegas, Nevada December 4, 2001 Hawaii (location not definite) PCB EAST 2000 IBIS SUMMIT MEETING PLANNING Bob Ross reported that the plans are in place for the IBIS Summit Meeting scheduled on Thursday, September 14, 2000 in Worcester, Massachusetts and held along with the PCB East Conference 2000. The IBIS meeting will be at the Crowne Plaza hotel, a few blocks from the PCB East Conference. The meeting is co-sponsored by Cadence, HyperLynx, Mentor Graphics and NESA. While we could use more co-sponsors, the financials indicate that the current set of sponsors will cover the expenses. Kathy Breda sent out the second notice. She also plans to send it out to the Signal Integrity reflector. More announcements will follow to confirm signups. Bob estimated that we have from 15 to 20 so far and expect about 30 to 40 at the meeting. Bob asked vendors to investigate providing an electronic projector for the meeting to avoid the high rental cost. Bob listed some presentations and discussion topics planned for the meeting: IBIS Present and Future - Bob Ross, Mentor Graphics Roy Leventhal, 3Com, - "IBIS and SI at 3Com" - Roy Leventhal, 3Com (Presented by Mike LaBonte, Cadence) IBIS-X and Futures Discussion - Mike LaBonte, Cadence Code Based Models - Tudor Secasiu, Intel An Escape Hatch for Leading Edge Simulation - Will Hobbs, Intel IBIS Connector Specification and Discussion - Kellee Crisafulli, HyperLynx IBIS Swath Matrix Expansion - Bob Ross, Mentor Graphics Bob noted that with open discussions and possible ad hoc presentations, this program should extend from 8:30 AM to 5:00 PM as planned. D.C. Sessions commented that according to JEDEC rules, all presentations must be made available in .pdf acrobat format. This is more stable than other formats which evolve over time, making reading older presentations more difficult and less efficient. Bob stated that we do not have a requirement on this. However, in the next annoucement, we will suggest that .pdf versions of the presentations be made available for uploading. Someone commented that slides in .pdf format cannot be "stolen" or modified by someone else. Bob also stressed that we will want presentations submitted beforehand so that we can have handouts for the meeting. DESIGNCON 2001 IBIS SUMMIT MEETING PLANNING Bob Ross noted that National Semiconductor is a co-sponsor of this meeting and will provide the lunch. DesignCon is the other co-sponsor as a result of IBIS Associate Sponsorship of DesignCon 2001. The early planning has been done. IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION Matthew Flora reported that some Marvel Technology Group models have been distributed for review. Also an STMicroelectronics model was just sent to the Model Review group. Matthew stated that John Angulo will be taking over the task of coordinating model reviews. Matthew and John will take care of contacting Syed Huq to change the IBIS Support and FAQ's links to John's e-mail address for Model Review services. CONNECTOR PROPOSAL REVIEW (CONTINUED) Bob Ross reported that the next Working Group meeting is on August 29, 2000. Good progress is continuing to stabilize the syntax and to deal with some technical issues. The Working Group has some internal, updated documents for internal review. The Working Group is finalizing these documents and should be releasing them to the IBIS Open Forum for review in the near future. IBIS FUTURES (IBIS-X, API, BIRDxx) Mike LaBonte reported on the IBIS Future Working Group activity. The Working Group is now meeting weekly. It is continuing to work on the macro language approach presented earlier by Al Davis. Progress has been good. Also the Working Group will be planning the presentations for the IBIS Summit Meeting. One general discussion topic is to decide how much to include for fast release versus how comprehensive it should be for the long term. Bob Ross added that the macro language approach supports compatibility with existing IBIS Version 3.2 and also some Spice-like nodal constructs for extendibility. Further, the nodal language supports a rich set of equation parameters and table parameters. The focus so far is on buffer modeling. The Working Group has been discussing series elements and the series switch elements to test and refine the macro language. Mike added that the Working Group intends to prototype the macro language in a simulator before releasing it. More discussion later in the meeting. D.C. Sessions suggested that we release the document and move more rapidly on this. Arpad Muranyi noted that while progress has been excellent, a complete document has not yet been generated. One needs to be a Working Group participant to understand some of the content. Presently the documentation consists of e-mail correspondence and a number of different attachment proposals. So a lot of detail still needs to be documented. Bob added that the current discussions involve using the macro language for buffer descriptions, and Mike LaBonte plans to issue a corresponding proposal for describing the pin mapping. While there has been excellent progress and some significant defacto decisions regarding focusing on the macro language (rather than other directions such as VHDL-AMS, XML, etc.) a lot more work is needed before the macro language proposal can be released. We continued discussing the documentation issue. Mike suggested forming another committee to consolidate the information and the document the macro language to a standards quality level. Arpad Muranyi suggested doing this at an all-day Working Group session on the day following the IBIS Summit Meeting. Ian Dodd stated that a BNF description is needed to formalize the macro language and to ensure that it is well-structured. He is willing to join the Working Group and help do this. John Angulo re-affirmed that the language needs to be prototyped before it is released. Arpad questioned whether we need a separate Connector Specification. He also needs upgrades in the package model portion of IBIS. Arpad suggested that the Connector Specification activity be merged with IBIS Version 3.2 and that package model extensions also be done. Bob commented that we had decided at an earlier meeting to work independently on just a Connector Specification project for several reasons: speed up the development and approval process, avoid being constrained by a number of existing IBIS format limitations, and leveraging on the strong interest over the years by several connector vendors to get a connector-specific format. Bob also suggested that perhaps the macro language could also use macros to describe the new connector specification and possibly configure the electrical connector details as package model details that surround the set of buffers of the component. Bob concluded the discussion and suggested that these types of concerns can be discussed further at the IBIS Summit Meeting. IBISCHK3 BUG TRACKING Bob Ross reported that he has still needs to check the current BUG fix status with Atul Agarwal. Several BUGs are in the queue and two more are to be processed. - BUG42 - Warning Message for Outputs with Thresholds Needed Bob opened the discussion on BUG42 by noting that it had been classified. The action to fix it has been delayed pending some final Warning message text. Matthew Flora proposed the following revised wording to the local ibischk-bug reflector: "WARNING (line xxx) - Input thresholds (Vinh and Vinl) are meaningless in buffers that can't be inputs (Model_type Output, 3-state, Open_drain, etc.)" Bob felt comfortable with the wording since it reported more thoroughly the conditions were should be checked. Matthew commented that he intended the message to be helpful to anyone at any level, not just the expert model developers. After futher discussion, the Committee agreed to use the new message. So BUG42 will be amended with the new message and then sent to Atul for inclusion in the updated ibischk3 code. - BUG46 - Warning Message Missed for Typ Outside of Min and Max Bob commented that BUG46 submitted by Matthew was discussed and classified at the last meeting. However, since a number of questions and points were raised, we deferred the decision to this meeting on what whether or not to do the changes. Matthew commented that two locations to provide the fix change were reported. He stated that could even do the fix himself after he received some stable source code from Atul. However, Bob stated that he still wanted Atul to control the source code and do the fix. Matthew could provide direct advice and assistance. A fix often means generating or modifying the "regression" test suite. After some more discussion, the Committee decided to submit BUG46 to Atul for fixing. Matthew commented that BUG46 was not uploaded in the directory where bugs are stored [fixed]. Mike LaBonte commented that the ibischk3.2 parser issues a Warning message when waveform table end points do not correspond to the I-V table data. This is one of the largest sources of model error. The Warning message is issued based on an arbitary 2% mismatch. Bob commented that a Warning rather than an Error message was chosen since the 2% value was arbitrarily set. Mike questioned whether an Error message should be issued, and asked what threshold percentage should it be? Bob and Mike agreed that this was a significant reason for many bad IBIS models. The vendors may assume that if ibischk3 passes the model, even with Warning messages, it can be released. D.C. Sessions commented that he is contracting IBIS model development code and specifying setting a threshold precentage of 1% for table truncation. D.C., Mike and others commented that early truncation of V-T tables was one reason why some vendors produced IBIS models with V-T end point mismatches. Some model developers may be constrained by the current 100 point table limit. They may be trading off detailed resolution needed for fast responses and the time needed for the response to settle to the final value. D.C. also suggested that the comments be added in the IBIS file regarding the method used to derive the data. Mike noted that bad models may be processed differently by different EDA vendors. Most vendors try to compensate in a most reasonable manner when there is conflicting information. However, such compensations may vary among different EDA tools. Ian Dodd suggested that one might have to choose whether to adjust either the V-T or V-I data. Bob commented that because the model data has to be changed, it is fundamentally bad. There is not any defendable method to correct it. D.C. Sessions suggested that a model test case be developed with scripts for a set of mismatch errors. This would be used to investigate the impact of actual waveform mismatches on EDA simulator tool accuracy. The purpose would be to find the tolerance threshold which should be used for reporting an Error. Bob commented that while this was a good idea, the IBIS Open Forum needed to stay out of commercial vendor comparison activities. Bob suggested that Warning messages be retained as is and that an Error message be issued if the mismatch is 10% or greater. This is an arbitrarily large enough number designed to catch the very significant waveform mismatches. Mike Labonte volunteered to write up the BUG report. We can then use it as a basis for further discussions regarding exact setting levels and Warning and Error reports. BIRD61.1 - ENHANCED CHARACTERIZATION OF RECEIVERS Bob Ross commented that we have not made progress in this area. Also, the IBIS Futures macro language proposal will probably be able to handle receiver models. The vendors can develop the behavioral model macro blocks and test them against actual receiver models. There are a number of people on the IBIS Futures Working Group who want the macro language adopted quickly, and even ahead of the planned IBIS Verson 4.0. Arpad Muranyi commented that IBIS Version 4.0 has not been finalized as rapidly as expected, and the needs may be better served with the macro language. Bob felt that processing the open BIRDs were still valuable. Because of Committee consensus, the actual implementation would also be done in the macro language. More discussion occured on macro language extensions that are captured in the IBIS Futures section above. 100 POINTS ISSUE The 100 point issue was introduced earlier in the meeting than scheduled as a result of the other extended discussions on IBIS Futures. Bob Ross commented that the 100 point table limitation subject had been discussed previously on the e-mail reflector and at some previous IBIS Meetings. The general consensus was to change the specification to allow more than 100 points in tables. We now need a BIRD to move forward on this issue. Bob suggested adopting one previously stated option of changing the limit to 1000 points for just the Waveform tables. When the BIRD is issued, we might consider whether to set this limit uniformly for all tables. Someone asked whether EDA simulators actually reject waveform tables larger than 100 points. Bob believed that most will currently accept larger tables. However, some may use an unmodified ibischk3 parser source code for the IBIS model reader and comply with the 100 point limit. Ian Dodd agreed to write the BIRD for this issue. Bob stated that he could help. BIRD64.1 - PACKAGE MODEL SELECTOR Some further discussion and a vote was scheduled for BIRD64.1 at this meeting. However, time ran out before we could fully address this topic and all of the remaining topics on the agenda. BIRD65 - C_comp REFINEMENTS Not discussed. BIRD66 - [Model Spec] Vref ADDITION Not discussed. NEXT MEETING: The next meeting is the IBIS Summit Meeting on Thursday, September 14, 2000 from 8:30 AM to 5:00 PM. No teleconference access is planned. ============================================================================== NOTES IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897 bob_ross@mentor.com Modeling Engineer, Mentor Graphics 8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070 VICE CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515 sjpeters@ichips.intel.com Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation M/S JF1-209 2111 NE 25th Ave. Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961 SECRETARY: Guy de Burgh (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259 gdeburgh@innoveda.com Senior Manager, Innoveda 1369 Del Norte Rd. Camarillo, CA 93010-8437 LIBRARIAN: Mike LaBonte (978) 262-6496, Fax: (978) 446-6798 mikelabonte@cadence.com Senior Technologist, Cadence Design Systems 270 Billerica Road Chelmsford, MA 01824 WEBMASTER: Syed Huq (408) 525-3399, Fax: (408) 526-5504 shuq@cisco.com Manager, Hardware Engineering, Cisco Systems 170 West Tasman Drive San Jose, CA 95134-1706 POSTMASTER: John Angulo (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008 angulo@hyperlynx.com Development Engineer, HyperLynx, Inc. 14715 N.E. 95th Street, Suite 200 Redmond, WA 98052 This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA Manual of Organization and Procedure. The following e-mail addresses are used: ibis-request@eda.org To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector (ibis@eda.org), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector (ibis-users@eda.org) or both. State your request. ibis-info@eda.org To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS Open Forum as a full Member. ibis@eda.org To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS technical enhancements. Job posting information is not permitted. ibis-users@eda.org To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and general user concerns. Job posting information is not permitted. ibischk-bug@eda.org To report ibischk2/3 parser bugs. The Bug Report Form Resides on eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs. To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt, /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, & /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt respectively. Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the Electronic Information Group under: http://www.eigroup/ibis/ibis.htm Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous discussions and results. You can get on via FTP anonymous. ==============================================================================