Date: 10/30/00 SUBJECT: 10/27/00 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes VOTING MEMBERS AND 2000 PARTICIPANTS LIST: 3Com Roy Leventhal Agilent (EEsof, etc.) Mark Chang Ansoft Corporation (Eric Bracken) Applied Simulation Technology Raj Raghuram, Norio Matsui, Fred Balistreri Avanti Nikolai Bannov Brocade Communications Robert Badal Cadence Design Mike LaBonte*, [Todd Westerhoff], Ian Dodd*, Donald Telian, Patrick Dos Santos Cisco Systems Syed Huq*, Irfan Elahi, John Fisher Compaq [Bob Haller], Peter LaFlamme, Ron Bellomio, Shafier Rahman, Doug Burns Cypress (Rajesh Manapat) EMC Corporation Fabrizio Zanella, Brian Arsenault, Terry Jernberg, Alexander Nosovitski, Elena Gutman, Shan Haq Fairchild Semiconductor Craig Klem HyperLynx (& Pads Software) Matthew Flora*, [Kellee Crisafulli], (Now merged with Innoveda) Gene Garat, John Angulo*, [Al Davis], Lynne Green IBM Michael Cohen*, Greg Edlund, Jerry Hayes Innoveda (Viewlogic Systems) Chris Rokusek, Guy de Burgh*, Jun Tian, Cary Mandel, Brad Griffin, (Jon Powell) Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi, Will Hobbs, Richard Mellitz, Charles Phares, Meir Nakar, Sigeti Gabi, Tudor Secasiu, Dave Lorang* LSI Logic (Larry Barnes) Mentor Graphics (& Veribest) Bob Ross*, Tom Dagostino, Malcolm Ash, Kim Owen, Jean Oudinot, Sherif Hammad, Hazam Hegazy, Weston Beal, Ken Bakalar Micron Technology Randy Wolff, Son Huynh Mitsubishi Shahab Ahmed, Carleen Murphy, Scott Estrich Molex Incorporated Gus Panella Motorola Ron Werner National Semiconductor Milt Schwartz* North East Systems Associates Edward Sayre, Tony Sinker, Kathy Breda, Jinhua Chen Nortel Networks Steve Coe, Calvin Trowell, Hassan Ali Philips Semiconductor D.C. Sessions*, Todd Andersen (& VLSI Technology) Quantic EMC (Mike Ventham) Robinson-Nugent, Inc. (Alexander Barr) Siemens AG Bernhard Unger, Gerald Bannert SiQual Scott McMorrow, Wis Macomson Texas Instruments Stephen Nolan, Ramzi Ammar, Mac McCaughey, Thomas Fisher, Jean-Claude Perrin, Jean-Yves Oberle Time Domain Analysis Systems Dima Smolyansky, Steven Corey Tyco Electronics (AMP) (Russell Moser) Via Technologies (Weber Chuang) Zuken (& Incases) Werner Rissiek, John Berrie OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 2000: Actel Corp. Silvia Montoya Advansis Mikio Kiyono Aerospatiale Matra CCR Lionel Dreux, Julien Boullie Alcatel (Lannion, Bell) Daniel Peron, Steven Criel Cereva Networks Bob Haller ECI Telecom Daniel Adar EIA Cecilia Fleming Fraunhofer Institute Michael Kurten Jet Propulsion Lab John Treichlew KAW Shinichi Maeda Hewlett Packard Paul Gregory RCI Chris Rode Rockwell Collins Ron Hau Signals & Systems Engineering Tom Hawkins ST Microelectronics Fabrice Boissiere, Pierre Saintot Sun Microsystems Victor Chang Thomson-CSF Savenrio Lerose, Pascal Vaslin, Thierry Zak, Sylvie Lasserre Transfer Hans Klos, Wilco Hamhuis Xilinx, Inc. Susan Wu Independent, Consultant Hideki Fukuda, Al Davis* In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses. Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets. Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as follows: Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode November 17, 2000 (916) 356-9200 8-160063 1329512 December 8, 2000 (916) 356-9200 To be issued December 22, 2000 (916) 356-9200 To be issued All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas out 7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode. NOTE: "AR" = Action Required. -------------------------------- MINUTES ------------------------------------- INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM No new participants. MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT Bob Ross reported that Brocade Communications has joined the IBIS Open Forum as an official member, and their entry has been moved to the Voting Member list above. We now have 35 members. REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S The October 6, 2000 IBIS Minutes were approved without any changes. Bob Ross noted that people often e-mail changes and corrections shortly after the Minutes are sent, and the changes get reported at the next meeting. The AR's will be discussed during the meeting. MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS Bob Ross commented that the last financial report of the year gives the best information. The monthly reports sometimes give income (such as membership payment) and expenses (the various allocations) as a pro-rated year-to-date entry, and some other items as their total amount. So, in the September report the dues income entry would actually be multiplied by 4/3 to get the actual income. Based on this, we have exceeded our we exceed our budgeted income. The 2001 budget will show an increase of Salaries & Benefits payment to EIA from $9000 to $12000. We are now approaching the break-even point again. PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES Bob Ross reported that the article "IBIS and SPICE Revisited" by Jon Powell appears in the October 2000 issue of Printed Circuit Design, pp. 28-32. This article mentions some recent committee developments. Bob also reported that IBIS was mentioned in the October 2000 issue of IEEE Spectrum in the article "Modeling for Printed-Circuit Board Simulation" by Anil Balaram, pp. 70-74. D.C. Sessions added that while the article mentions IBIS several times, it really does not cover the signal integrity aspects. Bob also reported that the book High Speed Digital System Design, A Handbook of Interconnect Theory and Design Practices, by Stephen Hall, Garrett Hall, and James McCall, published in 2000 by John Wiley mentions IBIS and all of the I-V and V-T behavioral concepts in Chapter 7, "Buffer Modeling". Also the book Digital Signal Integrity, Modeling and Simulation with Interconnects and Packages, Brian Young, published in 2000 by Prentice Hall mentions IBIS several times. Syed Huq has provided some Web page updates and Roster Updates. The official EIA/IBIS-656-A Version 3.2 specification is now located under the Spec link. Syed will also send a message on the IBIS reflector to ask for Roster Updates. Guy de Burgh stated that he has been following up directly on some known membership change situations, but has not received responses yet. NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE Bob Ross reported NEC Corporation IBIS models for memories exist under the Simulation Models links from NEC at: http://www.ic.nec.co.jp/memory/english/model/index.html Advanced Micro Devices (AMD) has some embedded processor models at: http://www.amd.com/products/epd/desiging/tsdocs/1.ibismodel/index.html Lucent Technologies has another link for network and communication ICs: http://www.lucent.com/micro/netcom/products/pdh.html Also, an LSI Logic link has been updated: http://www.lsilogic.com/products/storage_standard_prod/oem/ibis_models/ Mike LaBonte reported IBIS models from GSI Technology at http://www.gsitechnology.com/models1.htm Mike plans to update the Models link with this and other information. He also provides valuable information and observations regarding the content of the libraries. OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES Bob Ross - BIRD67 - Increase V-T Table 100 Point Limit Dave Lorang - BIRD68 - Clarify that Rising and Falling Waveform Tables Should be Correlated D.C. Sessions - V-T Table Compression INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS - IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 3.2) - Bob Ross worked with Stephen Peters and other IBIS Officers and Cecilia Fleming to draft header information based on some updated requirements from IEC regarding scope and historical background. This complies with the AR of the October 6, 2000 IBIS Meeting. The new information has been added to the ANSI/EIA-656-A document and has been sent to Greg Ledenbach, International Secretary of IEC TC-93, who has forwarded it to IEC. - pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits (IMIC) - No report. - IEC PWI 93-1 Models of Integrated Circuits for EMI Behavioral Simulation (formerly designated as IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation) - Bob Ross got a report from Jean-Claude Perrin stating that they have done some verification measurements on ICs. They are also doing measurements relating to PCB radiation. Jean-Claude will propose in the TC93 Plenary meeting to write the document as a CDV to create a public working document. His plan is that a future release of IBIS might take the IEC document into account. - JEDEC JC-16 - Modeling and Testing - D.C. Sessions invited IBIS members to participate at the next JEDEC JC-16 and JC-42 meetings December 6-7, 2000 in Kona, Hawaii. Contact D.C. if you are interested for a Chairman's invitation at his ibis e-mail account: ibis@lumbercartel.com D.C. stated that Mike LaBonte plans to attend. D.C. also stated that some interesting technical issues are being raised in the JEDEC JC-16 committee. JEDEC discussions are closed, but he can report as Chair that some public methods to increase the eye-diagram opening in DDR performance has been done using a capacitance to ground. FUTURE SUMMIT PLANNING The next IBIS Summit Meeting is planned on January 29, 2000 in Santa Clara, California along with DesignCon 2001 (January 29 - February 1, 2000). Bob Ross noted that National Semiconductor is a co-sponsor of this meeting and will provide the lunch. Milt Schwartz will continue to assist in the arrangements of this meeting. DesignCon is the other co-sponsor as a result of IBIS Associate Sponsorship of DesignCon 2001. We also plan to have a passive IBIS booth on the exhibit floor for literature and interaction. We will be sending out meeting notice information about six weeks before the meeting. Some other deliverables are due in November to be included in the conference literature. Bob secured a meeting site for the European IBIS Summit meeting to be held March 16, 2000 in Munich, Germany along with the Design Automation and Testing (DATE 2001) conference and exhibit. Bob has co-sponsorship again from Mentor Graphics and Zuken (Incases) and is seeking other co-sponsors as well. Information on these events exists at the Upcoming Events Links of the IBIS Home Page. IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION John Angulo has asked the vendor of the model reported at the October 6, 2000 meeting some questions on it. John is still waiting for resolution before distributing the model. CONNECTOR PROPOSAL REVIEW Bob Ross reported on two Connector Working Group meetings held on October 10 and October 17, 2000. The discussion continued on the For/Next syntax, the possibility of eliminating the Physical Model, and other subjects. There exists some support for keeping the Physical Model, so the issue is subject to more discussion. The next meeting is planned on October 31, 2000. Ian Dodd added that there is ambiguity regarding having the output pins named differently from the input pins. Ian also added that the Working Group would like to see more participants. IBIS FUTURES (IBIS-X, API, BIRDxx) Bob Ross mentioned that Working Group meetings were held on October 10 and October 24, 2000. The next meeting will be held on November 7, 2000. Mike LaBonte stated that the Working Group discussed data sets beyond the typ, min, and max columns allowing more columns. Al Davis still expects the prototype by the end of November 2000. A Working Group goal is to have documentation available for the DesignCon 2001 IBIS Summit Meeting. V-T TABLE COMPRESSION (New Item) D.C. Sessions commented that Philips IBIS models have the V-T time data points optimally compressed and distributed. He can provide a Perl script to do this. This script may be made public for Web distribution. At this time contact D.C. directly for information (see the IBIS Roster Listing link). Al Davis commented that points that are too closely spaced might cause simulation problems because of discontinuous derivatives. IBISCHK3 BUG TRACKING Bob Ross reported that Atul Agarwal does not see any problems in implementing the approved BUGs through BUG46. [Added note after the meeting - Atul did estimate he could do the work by mid November 2000.] Atul may need help on pending BUG47. - BUG47 - Change Waveform Mismatch Warning to Error and Warning We deferred discussion and resolution of BUG47 pending the revised wording proposal. Matthew Flora had some revisions, but they were not sent out. AR - Matthew Flora work with Mike LaBonte to revise the message report text of BUG47. BIRD61.1 - ENHANCED CHARACTERIZATION OF RECEIVERS D.C. Sessions stated that there has been no movement on BIRD61.1. He is calling for a vote. There was some discussion. Bob Ross felt that there were still some technical concerns. The committee had been viewing the IBIS-X or future IBIS direction as a possible solution rather than doing further work on BIRD61.1. Al Davis wanted to contact D.C. off-line to understand some of the concerns and to discuss how IBIS-X might implement and prototype the ideas. The outcome might a new BIRD for the existing IBIS format based on some tested ideas. Bob stated that BIRD61.1 will be scheduled for a vote at the November 17, 2000 IBIS meeting. BIRD64.2 - PACKAGE MODEL SELECTOR Bob Ross introduced BIRD64.2 briefly by noting that the AR from the October 6, 2000 meeting to position the new [Package Model Selector] keyword under [Component] had been complied with by Mike LaBonte. Mike is now listed as a co-author. Some aspects of BIRD64.2 were clarified. Al Davis was concerned with the differences in scoping and syntax between [Package Model Selector] and the [Model Selector]. We discussed some of the reasons for the differences including different calling conventions and scoping. Michael Cohen stated that one of the differences was based on the fact that spaces are technically allowed in package model names, but not in model names. So the second column under [Model Selector] can be a description column. The names also have different character length requirements. During the discussions Michael commented that the value of BIRD64.2 is that package model selections can be set up automatically by script or manually through a graphical user interface (GUI). Bob noted that the 40 character name should provide sufficient description of the choices. However, BIRD64.2 does not give any machine readable information about the content of each package model choice (such as typ, min, max or even and odd mode). So the application would be set up on a part-by-part basis. A vote was called for BIRD64.2. During the vote, Mike LaBonte expressed some reservations on BIRD64.2 from the preceding discussion. He felt that the positioning should be different. After some more remarks, the vote was continued with three choices: Yes, No, or Defer for revision. The vote was 8 Defer, 1 Yes, and 1 Abstain. Mike will work on the text of the changes to be ready for the next IBIS meeting. AR - Mike LaBonte issue the changes as BIRD64.3 by Friday, November 3, 2000 to be considered for a vote on the November 17, 2000 meeting. BIRD65 - C_comp REFINEMENTS Not discussed. BIRD66 - [Model Spec] Vref ADDITION Michael Cohen called for a vote on BIRD66. Bob Ross scheduled the vote for the November 17, 2000 IBIS Meeting. Bob noted that some discussion items concerning it could be brought up then. D.C. Sessions commented that JEDEC technologies have reference voltages that change significantly with supply voltage changes. BIRD67 - Increase V-T Table 100 Point Limit Bob Ross and Ian Dodd co-authored BIRD67 in response to the AR from the October 6, 2000 meeting. Bob introduced BIRD67 by noting that it increased the allowable number of point in V-T tables to 1000 points. He stated that IBIS puts limits on all parameters. We do not want to have arbitrarily large files generated by model providers (just to be conservative), but we also do not want to put size constraints that compromise accuracy. The 100 point V-T limitation can sometimes cause accuracy limitations based on existing automated methods to generate IBIS buffer models. Bob stated that one commentor felt the limit should be 1001 points to allow equally spaced integral time values such as 0 nS to 10 nS in 10 pS steps. Several people commented that producing models with 1000 points is not encouraged. V-T files with only as many points as possible is still the preferred method. The group felt that setting the limit to 1001 points would encourage producing unnecessarily large files with 1001 points. Bob mentioned that Bob Haller sent a note to the IBIS reflector stating that that the 100 point limit on I-V tables should also be increased to 1000 points for the same reasons given for V-T tables. After some discussion, the committee felt that this additional increase in points should be considered in a separate BIRD. BIRD67 should only deal with V-T tables. Michael Cohen commented that the ANALYSIS .. section of BIRD67 discussed the ambiguity of whether NA lines were counted as points on for each V-T column. Michael stated that this should be made clear and resolve. Bob Ross felt that the Committee intended to use the most conservative interpretation consistent with ibischk3. This interpretation would interpret 1000 points as the number of time entries regardless of whether or not that line contained columns with NA entries. D.C. Sessions suggested changing the word "points" to "rows" to formally clarify this ambiguity. Bob agreed to make the change and issue BIRD67.1 in time for a vote at the November 17, 2000 meeting. AR - Bob Ross issue BIRD67.1 with the 1000 points clarified by 1000 rows. [Done] BIRD68 - Clarify that Rising and Falling Waveform Tables Should be Correlated Dave Lorang introduced the recently issued BIRD68 by stating the need to have both the [Rising Waveform] and [Falling Waveform] tables time correlated to each other in a manner that preserves any relative TCO delays for each edge. Dave stated that for correct intersymbol interference analysis the relative delays need to be preserved. If EDA tools need to remove initial "lead-in" time, they need to remove the same amount from both edges. Al Davis added [Rising Waveform] and [Falling Waveform] tables also need to be time correlated with each other for differential buffer modeling. Several other points were brought up. Stephen Peters noted that the time reference in BIRD68 needs to be clarified further. Some text refers to the input threshold trigger point. Also, we need to consider whether to use a sub-parameter to state that the model was produced with the [Rising Waveform] and [Falling Waveform] relative delays preserved. This would be applicable in the next version of IBIS and would be consistent with backwards compatibility. The discussion will continue at the next meeting. NEXT MEETING: The next teleconference meeting will be on Friday, November 17, 2000 from 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM. BIRD61.1, BIRD64.3, BIRD66, and BIRD67.1 are scheduled for a vote along with BUG47 message resolution. ============================================================================== NOTES IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897 bob_ross@mentor.com Modeling Engineer, Mentor Graphics 8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070 VICE CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515 sjpeters@ichips.intel.com Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation M/S JF1-209 2111 NE 25th Ave. Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961 SECRETARY: Guy de Burgh (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259 gdeburgh@innoveda.com Senior Manager, Innoveda 1369 Del Norte Rd. Camarillo, CA 93010-8437 LIBRARIAN: Mike LaBonte (978) 262-6496, Fax: (978) 446-6798 mikelabonte@cadence.com Senior Technologist, Cadence Design Systems 270 Billerica Road Chelmsford, MA 01824 WEBMASTER: Syed Huq (408) 525-3399, Fax: (408) 526-5504 shuq@cisco.com Manager, Hardware Engineering, Cisco Systems 170 West Tasman Drive San Jose, CA 95134-1706 POSTMASTER: John Angulo (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008 angulo@hyperlynx.com Development Engineer, HyperLynx, Inc. 14715 N.E. 95th Street, Suite 200 Redmond, WA 98052 This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA Manual of Organization and Procedure. The following e-mail addresses are used: ibis-request@eda.org To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector (ibis@eda.org), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector (ibis-users@eda.org) or both. State your request. ibis-info@eda.org To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS Open Forum as a full Member. ibis@eda.org To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS technical enhancements. Job posting information is not permitted. ibis-users@eda.org To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and general user concerns. Job posting information is not permitted. ibischk-bug@eda.org To report ibischk2/3 parser bugs. The Bug Report Form Resides on eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs. To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt, /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, & /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt respectively. Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the Electronic Information Group under: http://www.eigroup/ibis/ibis.htm Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous discussions and results. You can get on via FTP anonymous. ==============================================================================