DATE: 7/24/01 SUBJECT: 7/20/01 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes VOTING MEMBERS AND 2001 PARTICIPANTS LIST: 3Com (& CommWorks) Roy Leventhal* Ansoft Corporation (Eric Bracken) Apple Computer John Figueroa Applied Simulation Technology [Raj Raghuram], Norio Matsui, Fred Balistreri Avanti (Chen Hongyu) Cadence Design [Ian Dodd], Patrick Dos Santos, Heiko Dudek Lynne Green, Lance Wang Cisco Systems Syed Huq, Lungfu Chen EMC Corporation Brian Arsenault, Jinhua Chen Fairchild Semiconductor Adam Tambone Huawei Technologies Rachild Chen IBM Michael Cohen, Greg Edlund*, Wes Martin, Yeon-Chang Hahm, Bill DeVey, Pravin Patel* Innoveda (& HyperLynx) Guy de Burgh, John Angulo*, Cary Mandel, Matthew Flora, Steve Kaufer Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Dave Lorang, Michael Mirmak, Qinglun Chen, Will Hobbs, Wei-hsing Huang LSI Logic Larry Barnes Mentor Graphics Bob Ross*, Tom Dagostino, Chris Reid, Mike Donnelly, Hazem Hegazy, Tony Dunbar, Griff Derryberry, Dan Lake, Sherif Hammad, Mohammed Korany, Weston Beal, Chris Swaim, Ali Samii, Eric Ronger, Karine Loudet, Daisaku Shiga, Kenji Kushima Micron Technology Randy Wolff*, Yong Phan* Mitsubishi Pat Hefferan Molex Incorporated Gus Panella, Brian O'Malley National Semiconductor Milt Schwartz North East Systems Associates Edward Sayre Philips Semiconductor Zack Ciccone, Rob Mataheroe Quantic EMC (Mike Ventham) Signal Integrity Software Douglas Burns, Barry Katz, Walter Katz SiQual Scott McMorrow, Rob Hinz, Bernard Voss, Chris Brewster Texas Instruments Thomas Fisher, Stephen Nolan, Ramzi Ammar, Jean Claude Perrin, Moshiul Haque Time Domain Analysis Systems Dima Smolyansky, Steve Corey Tyco Electronics (Russell Moser) Via Technologies (Weber Chuang) Zuken (& Incases) John Berrie, Ralf Bruening OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 2001: Actel Corporation Silvia Montoya Acuson Kim Helliwell AMCC Jeff Smith ASIS Ltd David Wright Brocade Communications Robert Badal BMW Friedrich Hasinger Cereva Networks Bob Haller Compaq [Peter LaFlamme], Ron Bellomio, Quang Dam, Bill Ham Cypress (Rajesh Manapat) EADS Airbus Industry Claude Huet (Aerospatiale) EFM Ekkehard Miersch, Horle Raines EIA Cecilia Fleming Ericsson Radio Systems Anders Ekholm FCI Sercu Stefaan Foundary Networks Bertram Chan Framatom Conectors Danny Morlion Fraunhofer Institute Mariusz Faferko, Peter Kralicek Reliability and Integration Fujitsu Ltd Tadashi Arai, Takeshi Murakami Heidelberger Druchmaschinen AG Wolfgang Kleinfeldt Hyundai Electronics Jongho Kang Idaho State University Al Davis Infineon Technologies Christian Sporrer Intrinsix Corporation Steven Chin Motorola (Rick Kingen) National Institute of Applied Etienne Sicard Science (INSA) Nokia Tapani von Ravner, Mika Castren, Janne Uusitalo Nortel Networks Calvin Trowell Oak Technology Darmin Jin Plexus Technology Group Joseph Socha Siemens (& Automotive) AG Bernhard Unger, Helmut Katzier, Katja Koller, Wolfram Meyer, Eckhard Lenski, Gerald Bannert, Burkhard Muller, Christian Marot, Manfred Maurer, Amir Motamedi, Hans Pichlmaier Sigrity Raj Raghuram* Sintecs Hans Klos STMicroelectronics Peter Hirt, Fabrice Boissieres Sun Adrian Udenze Toshiba Corp. Hirokaza Kato, Yuichi Koga, Toshio Sudo Xilinx Susan Wu In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses. Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets. Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as follows: Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode August 10 (877) 299-1938 none 6350164 August 31 (916) 356-2663 2 4779396 Thursday, September 13, 2001 IBIS Summit Meeting, No Phone Bridge All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas out 7 days before each Open Forum, and meeting minutes out within 7 days after. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Stephen Peters and give the reservation number and passcode. NOTE: "AR" = Action Required. -------------------------------- MINUTES ------------------------------------- INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM Raj Raghuram, who has been involved for years with IBIS as a model developer and as a tool developer joined Sigrity. Sigrity is involved with power and signal integrity simulations and uses IBIS models. Raj stated that Sigrity plans to become an EIA IBIS Open Forum member. MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT Stephen Peters reported about 28-29 members (down from 30) since there were some payment issues. These are being resolved. Bob Ross reported there are three potential members that are being processed (including Sigrity). So we expect about 32 members, ahead of the 30 member target from which our budget is based. REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S The June 01, 2001 IBIS Minutes were approved without change. Bob Ross submitted a spelling correction for Ralf Bruening of Zuken in the participants list for the June 21, 2001 IBIS Summit Meeting minutes. The Minutes were approved with this change. Bob stated that the uploaded minutes have been corrected. The ARs will be discussed during the meeting. MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS Stephen Peters stated that several officers have been on vacation, but are now returning. Guy de Burgh will return after July 27, 2001. PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES Stephen Peters reported that Syed Huq made more Roster updates, did an FAQ update (for ibischk3 source code license purchases), uploaded some IBIS Summit presentations, and updated the Upcoming Events link. NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE Stephen Peters stated that Roy Leventhal provided more updates as of 6/26/01 on the IBIS Models link. Bob Ross reported that Mindspeed Technologies (a Conexant Business) has IBIS Models under (URL split into two lines to avoid mailer truncation): http://web2.mindspeed.com/default.sph/SaServletEngine.class/Web/products/ documents.jsp?doc_type=27 OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES None. INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS - IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 3.2) - No report. Bob Ross stated that the document is probably still in prepublication status. - pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits (IMIC) - Bob Ross still cannot find the new link to the IMIC document. - IEC 62014-3 (ICEM) Integrated Circuit Electromagnetic Model Proposal (formerly, IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation) - Bob Ross stated that Etienne Sicard plans to present work at the September 13, 2001 IBIS Summit meeting. This will be discussed later in the meeting. - JEDEC JC-16 - Modeling and Testing - No report. - T10, Project 1414-DT - SCSI Signal Modeling (a Technical Committee of the National Committee for Information Technology (NCITS)) - No report. DESIGN AUTOMATION CONFERENCE 2001 IBIS SUMMIT MEETING FEEDBACK Stephen Peters enjoyed the meeting. However, he felt that we did not have as many questions and interactions as in some other meetings and is looking for suggestions for more interactions. He expected more questions on IBIS-X. Arpad Muranyi reported that some people discussed things after the meeting, but he did not think there was an IBIS-X parser demonstration offered by Al Davis. Several people had to catch plane connections after the meeting. Bob Ross stated that we had more presentations than expected and had to limit questions to keep the meeting going. We did not have copies of all slides available at the meeting. The presentations are all now uploaded under: http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/summits/jun01/ PCB CONFERENCE EAST 2001 IBIS SUMMIT MEETING PLANS Bob Ross reported that an IBIS Summit Meeting is planned all day on Thursday, September 13, 2001 in Worcester, Massachusetts at the Crowne Plaza Hotel near the PCB Conference East 2001 show. The meeting follows on the next day the trade show portion of the show. The Upcoming events link of the IBIS Home page already contains the sign-up information and hotel information. A free lunch and refreshments are included. Kathy Breda of NESA has been handling the arrangements and signups. She will also coordinate making copies of presentations for the meeting. Bob stated that we need to address the funding issue. In the past the EDA vendors have shared the meeting expenses. So far Bob expects these presentations (titles may change): "Modeling the Radiated Emission of Micro-controllers", Etienne Sicard, National Institute of Applied Science (INSA) in France "A Proposal for s2ibis3", Michael Steer, North Carolina State University Plus IBIS Version 4.0, IBIS-X and IBIS Connector Specification Progress Bob indicated that the IBIS Futures Working Group had discussed demonstrating the IBIS-X parser at the Summit meeting. This follows up on Stephen Peters comment to make the meeting have more interactive and promote more questions and discussions. Bob plans that the first announcement will be sent next week. NORTH CAROLINA STATE UNIVERSITY S2IBIS3 PROJECT Stephen Peters reported that he and Michael Steer of North Carolina State University (NCSU) have made recent contact. NCSU is working on a cell design project under a DARPA contract and is now interested in using IBIS. Michael is interested in developing s2ibis3 as part of this research. His team would be interested in using the ibischk3 as a basis, but Stephen stated that NCSU would have to pay for the source code. NCSU will probably develop their own parser independently. Bob Ross mentioned that NCSU would release s2ibis3 source code and executables under a GPL (GNU public license). Michael Steer is scheduled to discuss the project at the September 13, 2001 IBIS Summit Meeting. IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION John Angulo sent out a model from STMicroelectronics for review. John also has two other models that are being processed prior to being distributed. John stated that he cannot continue heading the IBIS Model Review Committee because of work commitments. He suggested several other people. Stephen Peters will work offline to find a replacement. MAJORDOMO AND SPAM MAIL UPDATE Stephen Peters reported that there seems to be more spam messages on the IBIS reflectors. Possibly someone is harvesting names off the mailing list (which is protected) or off of e-mail correspondence. One solution is to control the messages from a list server such as Majordomo. Using Majordomo, only folks that have subscribed and have known valid e-mail addresses could post to the IBIS reflectors, thus cutting down on SPAM to the list. John Angulo is still working with the eda.org systems administrators on using Majordomo. John would want to set up a test reflector before we actually make the change. There might be more restrictive access. John also noted that some of the spam messages have been sent to the ibis-request and ibis-info addresses. CONNECTOR PROPOSAL REVIEW The Working Group has been meet on June 12, July 3, and July 10, 2001. The attendance was down because of vacations. Stephen Peters summarized that work is continuing on reviewing the Connector Specification to align it with the IBIS document and also with some IBIS-X conventions. This work is proceeding more slowly than expected. Some recent topics include uncoupled and coupled lines, the transmission line syntax and frequency dependent matrices. Bob Ross stated that more people are now involved. Some earlier decisions are subject to review. The original choices included focusing on connector only issues versus trying to make this a combined package/connector model document, and postponing lossy matrices. Arpad Muranyi stated that it might not be difficult to put in frequency dependent matrices. Bob agreed and stated that the earlier consensus continues to implement losses based on matrices as a function of frequency. This is a superset of just assuming skin effect and conductance matrix relationships. Stephen stated that he preferred using the matrix approach as implemented in the document and wanted to proceed in a rapid manner to get the Connector Specification approved by the end of the year. It has been under development for several years. The next meeting is scheduled on July 24, 2001, and they should continue on a weekly basis. IBIS FUTURES (IBIS-X, API, BIRDxx) Stephen Peters summarized the progress based on meetings on June 12, July 3, 10 and 17, 2001. The discussions included the basic elements, some transmission line syntax (similar to the Connector Specification), LRC matrix issues and the Laplace element. John Angulo added that the syntax for controlled sources was discussed at the last meeting. Stephen stated that Scott McMorrow has issued comments on the Connector Specification and now is providing good comments on the IBIS futures documents. Work is continuing and the next meeting is scheduled for July 24, 2001. These should continue on a weekly basis. BIRD70.3 - GOLDEN WAVEFORMS Greg Edlund indicated that he put out several messages on the IBIS reflector in response to comments made at previous meetings. He got one positive comment back. Bob Ross stated that vacations and other IBIS activities prevented him from looking at BIRD70.3 and Greg's comments until now. He summarized his response as follows: He agrees with Issue 1 that a new [Test Data] subparameter Driver_model_inv should be added to support unsymmetrical differential drivers. He suggests that [Test Load] should add the subparamater Receiver_model_inv for completeness and to support unsymmetrical receivers with internal terminations. Bob noted that the [Test Load] subparameter Test_load_type was incorrectly entered as "Test_data_type" in some portions of BIRD70.3. Bob agreed with Greg's proposed Issue 2 restriction that only these combinations of Test_data_type and Test_load_type would be supported: Single_ended, Single_ended Differential, Differential While the combination Differential, Single_ended is also possible, it is not necessary since the Single_ended test load can be created with default large values of Rdiff*. The rules need to be stated for the Single_ended case how to interpret the differential golden waveforms [Diff ...] and the Rdiff* and *_inv parameters. Bob proposed that should be ignored. The parser probably would accept the model, but issue an Warning message. Finally the single_ended golden waveforms given for Test_data_type Differential should be for the non-inverting side of the net when *-inv models are used. The inverting golden waveform data can be obtained by a separate test, but with the inverting and non-inverting models interchanged. If the differential network is symmetrical, this is not an issue since the inverting and non-inverting models are the same. Bob plans to respond on the reflector to Greg's e-mail to capture these points. Greg should review this and issue BIRD70.4 in time for a vote at the next IBIS Meeting. AR - Bob Ross respond to Greg Edlunds comments. Greg issue BIRD70.4 by July 27, 2001 so that it can be presented for a vote at the next IBIS Meeting. BIRD71 - TIMING TEST LOADS IN [Model Spec] TO SUPPORT PCI & PCI-X Stephen Peters stated that there have not been any reflector comments on BIRD71. BIRD71 completes the list of [Model Spec] subparameters in a manner that supports PCI and PCI-X specifications. There have been some concerns on how EDA tools should use the new information. Bob Ross stated that he had questions because some of the new specification subparameters interacted with the model data itself. The loads, for example may be different for the min and max corners. This does not relate to how a physical part is specified or measured since the measurement is set up independent of the electrical characteristics of the component. So there may be some ambiguity on how EDA tools are to process the new subparameters. One suggestion is that the new subparameters is related to the actual model corners and are used to set up best and worst cases. Bob had suggested that there might be some discussion about on this in BIRD71. He did not have specific suggestions. Bob favors adding the subparameters per BIRD71 and letting the EDA tools decide how to process the new information. He will communicate any new ideas, if any, by next week. Stephen proposed that BIRD71 be scheduled for a vote at the next meeting. OTHER PENDING BIRDS Stephen Peters stated that he wanted IBIS Version 4.0 to be finished soon and voted by the end of the year. Votes are planned for BIRD70.4 and BIRD71. All other pending BIRDs need to be issued or deferred until IBIS-X. Bob stated that the SSO improvement proposal is pending, but might be deferred to IBIS-X where structural interactions could be programmed. This improvement may not work in all cases and may open up some technical issues. A fallback submodel BIRD is needed for some existing technologies needs to be generated if it is to be considered. Bob also stated that a clarification BIRD for Series Switch models is being developed by Tom Dagostino (following up on the Ad Hoc presentation at the June 21, 2001 IBIS Summit Meeting). This pending BIRD will make the discussion more general, but will not propose any syntax change. IBISCHK3 BUG TRACKING - BUG57 Non-Mononic Table Causes Waveform Endpoint Test to Fail Bob Ross introduced BUG57 by pointing out that if the [Pulldown] and/or the [Pullup] table contains non-monotonic data in the clamping regions, and there are no [Gnd Clamp] or [Power Clamp] tables, ibischk3 gives an incorrect Error message. The non-monotonic data itself causes ibischk3 to calculate the wrong endpoint values because the algorithm probably has numerical difficulties. It probably starts its convergence calculation at one end of the table rather than from the middle and gets numerically confused with the non-monotonic data. Even though the model is non-monotonic, it may represent real data. Some EDA tools will correctly process the model. However, the recently implemented Waveform endpoint tests now report an Error instead of a Warning, preventing the model to be processed in systems that uses ibischk3 for input model parsing. Bob suggested classifying BUG57 as Annoying, Low, and Open. The problem is how to resolve BUG57. The choices are (1) fix the test, (2) change the Error back to a Warning, or (3) ignore this problem and force the user to modify the IBIS file. Bob suggested that we work on (1) as a low priority activity. If the fix is too difficult, then we might consider (3). No one wanted (2). Stephen Peters suggested that a note could be added to the Warning or Error message to alert the user of a possible reason for the Error Message so that the user could modify the model. Bob suggested that because this is a low priority bug, it should be investigated after all the other open bugs are fixed. Then we can decide how to proceed. END OF MEETING TOPIC Roy Leventhal stated that he talked about signal integrity and IBIS at a recent IPC Design Learning Symposium meeting. He will track their activity. NEXT MEETING: The next teleconference meeting will be on Friday, August 10, 2001, from 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM. BIRD70.4 and BIRD71 are scheduled for a vote. ============================================================================== NOTES IBIS CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-1831 stephen.peters@intel.com Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation M/S JF4-215 2111 NE 25th Ave. Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961 VICE CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897 bob_ross@mentor.com Modeling Engineer, Mentor Graphics 8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070 SECRETARY: Guy de Burgh (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259 gdeburgh@innoveda.com Senior Manager, Innoveda 1369 Del Norte Rd. Camarillo, CA 93010-8437 LIBRARIAN: Roy Leventhal (837) 797-2152, Fax: (847) 222-2799 roy_leventhal@3com.com Senior Engineer, CommWorks Corp. (a wholly owned 3Com subsidiary) 1800 W. Central Rd. Mt. Prospect, IL 60056-2293 WEBMASTER: Syed Huq (408) 525-3399, Fax: (408) 526-5504 shuq@cisco.com Manager, Hardware Engineering, Cisco Systems 170 West Tasman Drive San Jose, CA 95134-1706 POSTMASTER: John Angulo (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008 jangulo@innoveda.com Development Engineer, Innoveda 14715 N.E. 95th Street, Suite 200 Redmond, WA 98052 This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA Manual of Organization and Procedure. The following e-mail addresses are used: ibis-request@eda.org To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector (ibis@eda.org), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector (ibis-users@eda.org) or both. State your request. ibis-info@eda.org To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS Open Forum as a full Member. ibis@eda.org To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS technical enhancements. Job posting information is not permitted. ibis-users@eda.org To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and general user concerns. Job posting information is not permitted. ibischk-bug@eda.org To report ibischk2/3 parser bugs. The Bug Report Form Resides on eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs. To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt, /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, & /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt respectively. Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the Electronic Information Group under: http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis.htm Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous discussions and results. You can get on via FTP anonymous. ==============================================================================