DATE: 4/2/02 SUBJECT: March 29, 2002 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes VOTING MEMBERS AND 2002 PARTICIPANTS LIST: 3Com (& CommWorks) Roy Leventhal*, James Goshorn Ansoft Corporation (Eric Bracken) Apple Computer Kim Helliwell Applied Simulation Technology Fred Balistreri, Norio Matsui Avanti (Hailong Wang) Cadence Design Lynne Green* Cisco Systems Syed Huq, Abdulrahmun Rafiq, Zhiping Yang Cypress Semiconductor (Rajesh Manapat) EMC Corporation (Brian Arsenault) Fairchild Semiconductor Adam Tambone Huawei Technologies (Rachild Chen) IBM Greg Edlund, Pravin Patel* Innoveda John Angulo*, Guy de Burgh* Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Will Hobbs, Pete Block, Ben Silva*, Tony Lewis* LSI Logic [Larry Barnes], Frank Gasparik* Mentor Graphics Bob Ross*, Ian Dodd*, Mike Donnelly, Matt Hogan, Sherif Hammad Micron Technology Randy Wolff* Mitsubishi (Tom Cao) Molex Incorporated Gus Panella Motorola Rick Kingen National Semiconductor Milt Schwartz* NEC Corporation (Akimoto Tetsuya) North East Systems Associates (Edward Sayre) Philips Semiconductor (D.C. Sessions) Quantic EMC (Mike Ventham) Siemens (& Automotive) AG Helmut Katzier Signal Integrity Software Barry Katz*, Walter Katz, Robert Moles, Daniel Nilsson, Kevin Fisher, Steve Coe, Wiley Gillmor, Douglas Burns, Eric Brock, Sigrity Raj Raghuram SiQual Scott McMorrow, Dave Macemon, Rob Hinz Texas Instruments Thomas Fisher, (Jean-Claude Perrin) Time Domain Analysis Systems Steve Corey, Dima Smolyansky Tyco Electronics (Tim Minnick) Via Technologies (Weber Chuang) Zuken (& Incases) (Michael Schraeder) OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 2002: Actel Prabhu Mohan Apt Software Atul Agarwal Brocade Communications Robert Badal Compaq Shafier-ur-Rahman EIA Cecilia Fleming Matsushita (Panasonic) Atsuji Ito National Institute of Applied Sebastian Calvet (& Motorola) Science (INSA) Northrup (Litton) Robert Bremer Shindengen Elecric Mfg. Co. Tsuyoshi Horigome TDK Yoshikazu Fujishiro Xilinx Susan Wu, J.L. de Long Independent Larry Barnes In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses. Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets. Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as follows: Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode April 19 1-888-316-5901 N/A 7095323 (International Dial-in 1-617-801-9781) May 10 1-888-316-5901 N/A 6874860 (International Dial-in 1-617-801-9781) All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas out 7 days before each Open Forum, and meeting minutes out within 7 days after. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Stephen Peters and give the reservation number and passcode. NOTE: "AR" = Action Required. -------------------------------- MINUTES ----------------------------------- INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM Tony Lewis from Intel Corp. introduced himself. Tony is an IBIS model creator, working on new processors. MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT Stephen Peters reported that EIA has received payments from 23 companies. In addition, Stephen is waiting on word of payment received from two others. This is out of a total of 37 invoices sent. Stephen stated that he will contact the remaining companies by phone. Stephen then reported on the financial status based on the numbers for 2001. Actual Budget INCOME 32,366 25,000 EXPENSES 21,968 24,252 ALLOCATIONS 3,536 3,513 NET 6,862 (2,765) This along with $14,550 from 2000 produces a net accumulation of $21,422. in our account. This will be reduced by future payments. We are still a non-profit committee, so we do not intend to accumulate indefinitely. Much of this is reserved for future parser work and other projects that may have to be funded, but it will also help cushion the committee over the lean economic times. We may have fewer members this year. Plus with less sponsorship, the IBIS Committee sometimes has to cover more Summit Meeting Expenses. Stephen noted the main positives -- we had more members than we budgeted for, more royalties than was budgeted for and some projected expenses were not made in 2001. However, some of this can catch up with us later this year, so our actual working reserve is less. We are waiting for final invoice analysis and ledger report for 2001. The EIA accounting contractor will change for 2002, so we need the report as soon as possible. REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S The minutes from the February 22, 2002 teleconference were approved without change. Minutes from the March 8, 2002 IBIS summit meeting in Paris, France were approved without change. The ARs were discussed during the meeting. MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS Bob Ross announced that the next IBIS Summit Meeting is scheduled for Thursday, June 13, 2002 at the DAC conference in New Orleans. PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES Stephen Peters reported that Syed Huq has updated the Roster listing and Upcoming Events link of the IBIS home page. Bob Ross reported an Actel application note "IBIS Models: Background and Usage" under: http://www.actel.com/custsup/models/ibis.html NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE Bob Ross and Roy Leventhal provided a sampling of new or revised links. Roy also noted that over the next couple of weeks he will be revising the look of the roster page. The following new/changed links were noted: http://wwwpub.amd.com/K6/k6docs/ibis.html http://wwwpub.amd.com/products/nvd/tools/fusion/ibis_models.html Catalyst Semiconductor, Inc. http://www.catalyst-semiconductor.com/iko_bld_page.cfm?id=72 LSI Logic (Split in two lines to avoid line wrap): http://www.lsilogic.com/products/storage_standard_prod/oem/ iocontrollers/technologiescontrollers.html Sibercore (IBIS model request form) http://ww.sibercore.com/products.html White Electronic Designs Corporation (Memory IBIS Models): http://www.whiteedc.com/memory/simulation.php Woo Sung Semiconductor Co. Ltd (list of Memory IBIS models) http://www.wss.co.kr/documents/english.htm http://www.wss.co.kr/documents/model.htm (some browsers may not read this) OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES Bob Ross asked to bring up a new issue regarding purchasing more disk space on the eda.org server. INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS - IEC 62014-3 (ICEM) Integrated Circuit Electromagnetic Model Proposal (formerly, IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation) - Stephen Peters and Bob Ross still have the action item to review the specification, and Stephen encouraged others to do so as well. - JEDEC JC-16 - Modeling and Testing - No report. - T10, Project 1414-DT - SCSI Signal Modeling (a Technical Committee of the National Committee for Information Technology (NCITS)) - No report. DATE 2002 IBIS SUMMIT MEETING FEEDBACK Stephen Peters asked for feedback regarding the IBIS Summit meeting held on March 8, 2002 in Paris France. Stephen noted that the meeting was well attended, with representatives from Siemens, Zuken and Mentor Graphics among others. The presentations were interesting, with a focus on EMI as expected. Stephen noted that the summit presentations have been uploaded at http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/summits/mar02/ IBIS QUALIFICATION COMMITTEE Barry Katz reported on the first meeting of the IBIS qualification committee, which was held on March 20, 2002. It was attended by 17 people from 12 different companies. Attendees included both model users and model creators. This meeting established the charter, then discussed the process for creating a model validation checklist that can be used when procuring ICs from a semiconductor vendor. ARs were assigned to get input for the checklist. The committee also intends to leverage off of the previous work of the accuracy committee, Siemens, and the presentations make at DesignCon 2002. Finally, Barry noted that future meeting will be held bi-weekly on Thursdays at 11:00am EST. IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION Bob Ross reported no new models have been received. MAJORDOMO UPDATE John Angulo reported that the IBIS and IBIS-Users lists are now closed because of recent virus and Spam mail being sent on the lists. Only subscribers whose sending address matches exactly the address on the subscribers list can post. John will moderate "bounced" messages when legitimate mail from mismatched addresses is received. John noted that legitimate posts from subscribers that have changed their e-mail address will not receive an indication that the post bounced. In those cases John will notify the sender directly. Unsolicited postings have recently become a serious problem since many company virus detection programs may block all postings from certain sites. Bob Ross stated that we may also have to moderate the other smaller lists for ibischk-bug, ibis-info, and ibis-request. Bob reported that the IBIS reflector e-mail now has the requested title block addition of [IBIS] and also the following trailer: ------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with the appropriate message(s) in the body:| | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or send a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 Bob also noted that the IBIS Reflectors cannot be used for unprofessional messages. We had to remove one member and block his e-mail. We appreciate that people let the thread die. This is the proper conduct - notify Stephen Peters, Bob or John if any such messages are received in private, and we will take appropriate action. NEW ADMINISTRATIVE ISSUES Bob Ross reported that we have ran out of disk space on eda.org for the IBIS site. Since the IBIS Open Forum is now the largest user of the site (about 350 Mbytes for storage) and also serves as justification for its existence and donated support, Bob suggested that we offer to pay for the purchase of another disk. This will become a growing problem since we continue to archive e-mail, minutes, presentations, many utilities and other material on this site. In that manner we will not be faced with a memory limit issue for a long time. The eda.org staff has estimated that a 40 GByte disk SCSI-2 disk for the Sun workstations can be found for $399 (less than $10/Gbyte). Lynne noted that a 100Gbyte IDE drive can be had for $100. Bob proposed that we commit to paying for such a purchase not to exceed $600 at this time. If more money is needed, we can raise the issue at a later meeting. Lynne noted that we should encourage the system administrators at eda.org to find low cost solutions. Stephen Peters called for a vote, and the IBIS Committee voted unanimously in favor of paying the invoice. IBIS VERSION 4.0 REVIEW Stephen Peters reported that two new formats of the work in progress document have been added to the directory: ver4_0wip.pdf and ver4_0wip.doc. All documents are available at: http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/ver4.0_wip/ or the IBIS home page Ver 4.0 Work In Progress link: http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis.htm Stephen then went through section 6 (the [Model] section), outlining the changes introduced by BIRDs as well as various editorial changes he noted during his review. Stephen listed the following BIRDS as affecting the model section: BIRD 62 -- Enhanced Specification of Receiver Thresholds BIRD 65 -- C_comp Refinements BIRD 66 -- [Model Spec] Vref Additions BIRD 67 -- Increase V-T Table 100 Point Limit BIRD 68 -- Clarification of Waveform Table Correlation BIRD 70 -- Golden Waveform BIRD 71 -- Timing Test Loads in [Model Spec] BIRD 72 -- Accommodating PMOS/NMOS Series FET Models Specific changes, corrections and enhancements that were discussed during the meeting are noted as follows (page numbers mentioned below are for the ver4_0wip.pdf document). On page 21, in second to the last paragraph from the bottom, Stephen noted that the wording of this paragraph regarding extra C_comp sub-parameter usage is unclear. It appears that the last two sentences of this paragraph contradict themselves. In addition, Lynne Green asked if the specification should state a hard rule on what tool vendors should do if the original C_comp sub-parameter is included along with the new rail specific C_comp sub-parameters. Bob Ross and several others agree that this paragraph needs to be re-written to both remove ambiguity and state a hard rule. Stephen Peters suggested making an editorial change to [Temperature Range] to clarify what values are put under the 'min' and 'max' columns. Currently, usage rules for the 'min and 'max' columns are in the Data Derivation section of the specification and are not visible to the new user. Stephen noted that this change was prompted by the recent thread on the subject on the SI-List. Roy Leventhal noted that, in general, readability and organization of the spec. is an issue. Lynne Green suggested adding an second illustrative example with comment. Bob Ross suggested adding a forward reference to the data derivation section. Stephen will take these suggestions under advisement. In an editorial change, Stephen proposed changing the wording in the [Pullup], [Pulldown], etc. tables to indicate that the current 100 point limit applies specifically to rows in an I-V table, not the number of points. There was general agreement that this is a good change. Arpad Muranyi also suggested changing the current 100 row limit to 1000 rows. Arpad stated that this would better accommodate frequency analysis where the derivative of I-V points is used. Bob Ross replied that we have other I-V tables to consider, and he recommended that a change of this magnitude be done through the formal BIRD process and not as an editorial change. In other editorial changes, Stephen noted that the last sentence in the block describing the series keywords [R Series], [L Series], etc. (page 42) is in error. The phrase "these keywords" should be changed to "series Models". On page 43 under the [Series Current] keyword, the phrase "These Keywords" should be changed to "This keyword". Lynne Green also noted that this is another place where references to I-V table "points" be changed to "rows". Finally, Stephen stated that a third and final reading of the work in progress document will be done at the April 19, 2002 meeting. He again encouraged attendees to review the document and voice comments. The revised document will be made available two weeks before a vote. Bob Ross volunteered to maintain the work in process document and add the editorial changes as they are identified and agreed to. Bob will also publish a list of changes as they are made to the document. CONNECTOR PROPOSAL REPORT Stephen Peters reported on meetings held on February 26, March 5, March 19 and March 28, 2002. Stephen reported that the focus of these meeting has been the proposal from Arpad Muranyi to add general purpose nodal interconnects to the .icm specification. The connector committee has settled on two added keywords ([Nodal Path Description] and [Nodal Map]) that are analogous to the existing [Path Description] and [Pin Map] keywords. Aside from one technical issue that remains open, the committee is ready to move onto an editorial review of section 8. Stephen believes that the .icm document should be ready for review by June, 2002. FUTURES REPORT Stephen Peters reported on meetings held March 14 and then again on March 21, 2002. The futures committee has been reviewing the "Multi-Lingual Modeling" proposal from Bob Ross, asking clarification questions and reviewing both technical and editorial content. Bob reported that he is almost ready to release the proposal as a BIRD. He also noted that the BIRD will be about 17 pages long, and he asked if he should just mail a link to the web page rather than post the entire BIRD to the reflector. After discussion, Bob stated that he would post both a message to the reflector with the bird as a text attachement (.txt file) as well as post a link to the IBIS web page where the bird is stored. BIRD 74 - EMI Parameters Guy de Burgh introduced BIRD 74 as a way to enable EDA tools to do EMI analysis using .ibs files as a data source. Guy stated that there are many mechanisms that produce EMI. He outlined the major ones in the presentation he gave at the January, 2002 IBIS Summit at DesignCon 2002. In brief, EMI can be described either as differential mode or common mode. Common mode EMI is further described as voltage driven & current driven. Differential mode EMI is the result of current loops and flows within a PCB. Common mode flows out of/into a PCB. Guy analyzed what data currently in the IBIS specification could be used for EMI analysis. Guy noted he already has enough information to calculate I/O edge rates as well as the source or output impedance of a buffer. His approach was to look at where a PCB radiates. E.g. currents on traces, currents flowing out of/into a PCB through a connector, metallic structures that act as antennas (e.g. heatsinks). He then looked at components, pins and models to identify the new data needed in order to calculate EMI. For example, die height is need to calculate loop area for differential mode calculations, impedance of cables or board I/O pins is used to calculate common mode currents.. On the subject of accuracy, Guy stated that it is very difficult to calculate an absolute value for EMI emissions for a given design. However, there is still a great deal of value in calculating the relative EMI emissions of the various parts of a design. For example, an engineer may need to know which devices on a board radiate the most, or where the energy flow in a system is the greatest, or how differential mode EMI compares to common mode EMI for a particular design. An EDA tool can show these relative relationships. Finally, Guy noted that a goal of the proposed BIRD was to use data that was readily available in data books and specification sheets. Guy responded to a question from Pravin Patel that was posted earlier on the IBIS reflector. Pravin wanted to know why heatsink data (geometry) was included while the enclosure geometry was not. Guy replied that the enclosure (box level data) will certainly attenuate the radiation (depending on the material it is made of) but this data is not part of the scope of IBIS, whereas the board level detail is. Guy went on to note that a heatsink can act as an antenna that radiates EMI and should be accounted for. The heatsink geometry would be used to calculate capacitance. Guy also noted that this capacitance is frequency dependent. In response to a question on the Cpd parameter, Guy noted that there are lots of technical papers on the effects of power supply dissipation capacitance, and he suggested using the Google search engine to learn more. Stephen Peters raised the issue of including connector information in an .ibs file. Stephen feels that the forthcoming .icm file would be a more appropriate place to put connector specific information. Guy replied that he wanted to have all the EMI data for a design in a single location and not spread out over several files. Stephen recommended that the 'Domain' and 'Family' sub-parameters be changed to required sub-parameters. Bob Ross voiced his agreement also. Stephen then asked about the meaning and usage of the UNDEF argument to the Family sub-parameter. Guy responded that an EDA tool was expected to pick an processing algorithm based on the family choice of TTL, CMOS or ECL, but if the device did not fit one of these profiles the user could choose UNDEF. Further discussion of this BIRD was cut short by time, and will resume at the next teleconference. IBISCHK3 & BUG TRACKING STATUS Bob Ross reported that he contacted Atul Agarwal, but is still waiting for a work estimate regarding producing ibischk3.2.9 to deal with about 8 pending BUG reports. NEXT MEETING: The next meeting will be a teleconference meeting, planed for April 19, 2002 from 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time. ============================================================================ NOTES IBIS CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-1831 stephen.peters@intel.com Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation M/S JF4-215 2111 NE 25th Ave. Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961 VICE CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897 bob_ross@mentor.com Modeling Engineer, Mentor Graphics 8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070 SECRETARY: Guy de Burgh (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259 gdeburgh@innoveda.com Senior Manager, Innoveda 1369 Del Norte Rd. Camarillo, CA 93010-8437 LIBRARIAN: Roy Leventhal crleventhal@attbi.com Senior Engineer, CommWorks Corp. (a wholly owned 3Com subsidiary) 1800 W. Central Rd. Mt. Prospect, IL 60056-2293 WEBMASTER: Syed Huq (408) 525-3399, Fax: (408) 526-5504 shuq@cisco.com Manager, Hardware Engineering, Cisco Systems 170 West Tasman Drive San Jose, CA 95134-1706 POSTMASTER: John Angulo (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008 jangulo@innoveda.com Development Engineer, Innoveda 14715 N.E. 95th Street, Suite 200 Redmond, WA 98052 This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA Manual of Organization and Procedure. The following e-mail addresses are used: majordomo@eda.org In the body, for the IBIS Open Forum Reflector: subscribe ibis In the body, for the IBIS Users' Group Reflector: subscribe ibis-users Help and other commands: help ibis-request@eda.org To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector (ibis@eda.org), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector (ibis-users@eda.org) or both. State your request. ibis-info@eda.org To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS Open Forum as a full Member. ibis@eda.org To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS technical enhancements. Job posting information is not permitted. ibis-users@eda.org To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and general user concerns. Job posting information is not permitted. ibischk-bug@eda.org To report ibischk2/3 parser bugs. The Bug Report Form Resides on eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs. To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt, /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, and /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt respectively. Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the Electronic Information Group under: http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis.htm Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous discussions and results. You can get on via FTP anonymous. ============================================================================