DATE: 11/25/02 SUBJECT: November 22, 2002 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes VOTING MEMBERS AND 2002 PARTICIPANTS LIST: Ansoft Corporation (Eric Bracken) Apple Computer Kim Helliwell Applied Simulation Technology Fred Balistreri, Norio Matsui Cadence Design Lynne Green*, Patrick dos Santos, Lance Wang Cisco Systems Syed Huq*, Abdulrahmun Rafiq, Zhiping Yang, Mike LaBonte, Todd Westerhoff Cypress Semiconductor (Rajesh Manapat) Huawei Technologies (Jiang Xiang Zhong) IBM Greg Edlund, Pravin Patel* Innoveda (Merged with Mentor John Angulo*, Guy de Burgh*, Steve Gascoigne Graphics) Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Will Hobbs, Pete Block, Ben Silva, Tony Lewis, Michael Mirmak* LSI Logic [Larry Barnes], Frank Gasparik* Matsushita (Panasonic) Atsuji Ito Mentor Graphics Bob Ross*, Ian Dodd, Mike Donnelly, Matt Hogan, Sherif Hammad, [Tom Dagostino], Eric Rongere, Karine Loudet, Kevin Cohan Micron Technology Randy Wolff* Mitsubishi Pat Hefferan Molex Incorporated Gus Panella Motorola Rick Kingen National Semiconductor Milt Schwartz* NEC Corporation (Akimoto Tetsuya) North East Systems Associates Edward Sayre, Kathy Breda Philips Semiconductor (D.C. Sessions) Quantic EMC (Mike Ventham) Siemens (& Automotive) AG Helmut Katzier, Katja Koller, Eckhard Lenski Signal Integrity Software Barry Katz, Walter Katz, Robert Moles, Daniel Nilsson, Kevin Fisher, Steve Coe, Wiley Gillmor, Douglas Burns, Eric Brock, Bob Haller Sigrity Raj Raghuram SiQual [Scott McMorrow], Dave Macemon, Rob Hinz Texas Instruments Thomas Fisher, Jean-Claude Perrin Teraspeed (Scott McMorrow), Tom Dagostino Time Domain Analysis Systems Steve Corey, Dima Smolyansky Via Technologies (Weber Chuang) Zuken (& Incases) Caroline Legendre, Ralf Bruening OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 2002: 3Com (& CommWorks) [Roy Leventhal], James Goshorn Actel Prabhu Mohan Agilent Herbert Lage Airbus Claude Huet Alstom Transport Luca Giacotto Apt Software Atul Agarwal Astrium Olivier Prieur Bee Technologies Corporation Tsuyoshi Horigome Brocade Communications Robert Badal Compaq (Merged with HP) Shafiq Ur Rahman Conexant Arzu Simsek EADS CCR Alix de la Villeguerin EFM Ekkehard Miersch EIA [Cecilia Fleming], Chris Denham EMC Corporation Brian Arsenault, Jeanne Hereth, Elena Gutman, Simba Julian Fairchild Semiconductor Adam Tambone Force Computers Roger Sukiennik Harman/Becker Automotive Hartmut Exler Systems Hitachi Nonoyama Sadahiro, Shoji Kazuyoshi Japan Electronics and Kiyomi Daishido Information Technology Industries Association (JEITA) Leventhal Design and Roy Leventhal Communication National Institute of Applied Sebastian Calvet (& Motorola) Science (INSA) Etienne Sicard, Stephane Baffreau Northrup (Litton) Robert Bremer Sagam SA Quang Ngo, Matthieu Fontaines Shindengen Elecric Mfg. Co. [Tsuyoshi Horigome] Sintecs Hans Klos STMicroelectronics Fabrice Boissieres Synopsys (Avanti) (Hailong Wang) TDK Yoshikazu Fujishiro Thales Saverio Lerose Tyco Electronics (Tim Minnick) UTMC Greg Haynes Xilinx Susan Wu, J.L. de Long Independent Larry Barnes In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses. Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets. Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as follows: Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode December 13, 2002 (916) 356-2663 3 5013842 All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas out 7 days before each Open Forum, and meeting minutes out within 7 days after. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Stephen Peters and give the reservation number and passcode. NOTE: "AR" = Action Required. -------------------------------- MINUTES ----------------------------------- INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM No new introductions CALL FOR PATENTS Stephen Peters called for any patents or pending patents related to the IBIS Version 4.0 Standard. No companies declared a patent. MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT Stephen Peters reported that membership remains steady at 31 paid members, however we did receive an inquire for membership from one more company. Stephen also received the 2003 budget proposal from EIA. The budget current projects a $4,100 overrun (expenses exceed income), but this is based on a projected 25 members for next year. REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S The November 1, 2002 minutes were approved without change. The ARs were discussed during the meeting. MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS None. PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES Stephen Peters reported that Syed Huq has updated the web page with a 'contacts' link that lists the contact information for the IBIS officers. The quality committee link was updated and a pointer to the DesignCon2003 program brochure was added under the upcoming events link. John Angulo reported that Syed also fixed a broken link to the IBIS visual editor. NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE None. OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES Bob Ross added BUG78, Clamp Current Double Counting Test, to the agenda. Michael Mirmak asked to discuss the draft ICM specification. INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS - IEC 62014-3 (ICEM) Integrated Circuit Electromagnetic Model Proposal (formerly, IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation) - Stephen Peters needs to review the some comments on the Cookbook and Report document. Bob Ross reported that he attended EMC COMPO 2002 (3rd International Workshop on Electromagnetic Compatibility of Integrated Circuits) in Toulouse, France and presented an introductory overview of "IBIS and ICEM". The Workshop had about 80 attendees and had many interesting papers covering measurement, parameter extraction and modeling. DESIGNCON 2003 IBIS SUMMIT MEETING PLANNING Stephen Peters reported that planning continues for the DesignCon2003 IBIS Summit sponsored by DesignCon2003 and National Semiconductor. The summit is scheduled for Monday, January 27, 2003 in Santa Clara, California at the Westin Hotel adjacent to the Santa Clara Convention Center. National Semiconductor is supplying the lunch and Stephen reminded those planning to attend to visit the IBIS web page under the upcoming events link and sign up with Milt Schwartz. Stephen Peters reported that Guy de Burgh will again be responsible for setting up the IBIS booth at DesignCon. Stephen asked for the member companies to review last years placards for logo updates. Stephen also mentioned that he would again supply an IBIS flyer to hand out at the booth. Bob Ross noted that last year we handed out extra copies of the summit presentations to the booth visitors and this was well received. Stephen suggested that we print up a few extra copies and do it again this year. Lynne Green asked if we could have a flyer at the booth that lists the IBIS links. Stephen will work with Lynne to incorporate this information into the existing flyer. Lynne Green reported that she and Arpad Muranyi have been working on the logistics of a webcast. Lynne stated that a standard (modem speed) connection costs $290, while the 'high speed' (t1) connection costs $870. The standard connection will require that the presentation be loaded from the webcast server to the local machine prior to the presentations. Arpad Muranyi pointed out that the WebX webcast service does not allow for voice and he has found another webcast company called Interwise which does. There is a charge involved and Arpad is following up on this. Arpad also requested the hotel contact information from Lynne so that he could find out the details of the modem connection. Finally, Stephen noted that the following individuals have signed up to present at the summit (presentation titles are tentative) - Stephen Peters, IBIS Report - Dima Smolysansky, TDA Systems, TBD - Barry Katz, Signal Integrity Software, Quality Committee Report Other presentations are encouraged. IBIS VERSION 4.0 PARSER FUNDING ISSUES Stephen Peters reported that he has sent a letter to the current parser license holders asking if they will be able to support funding of the new parser development by purchasing a license for IBIS 4.0 at an expected price of about $2,000. One company responded positively to the letter, and another two have contacted Stephen privately to state that they will provide financial support. In addition, Stephen received an inquiry for a parser license from another company, for a total of five companies. Stephen stated that his target was ten companies offering financial support. Stephen noted that Lynne Green will be following up with a letter to the entire membership, and Stephen will also be making phone calls. IBIS QUALITY COMMITTEE Lynne Green reported that IBIS quality committee met on November 5 and 19, 2002. The next meeting is scheduled for December 3, 2002. The quality committee is presently working on documentation to back up the checklist. Barry Katz is planning to present a status report at the January summit. IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE Lynne Green reported that she is in the process of updating the model review committee roster with new e-mail addresses. One person has dropped off the list, and Lynne asked for new participants, NEW ADMINISTRATIVE ISSUES None. IBIS FUTURES AND CONNECTOR WORKING GROUP REPORT Stephen Peters reported that Lynne Green has located a programmer that might be willing to volunteer to write a parser for the interconnect modeling (ICM) specification. It would be an open-source parser that could be incorporated into other tools without restriction. The IBIS Open Forum would maintain control of the version posted on the web, and people could still modify source code (same use model as today). After a short discussion we decided to pursue this offer. Michael Mirmak pointed out that the IBIS Open Forum still needs to review the specification and address the already received comments. Both Stephen and Bob Ross agreed, noting that we want the specification to dictate the parser details, not the other way around. Stephen asked Lynne Green to draw up a statement of work that will formalize the arrangement and send it to the IBIS officers for review. BIRD75.7 - Multi-Lingual IBIS Model Support BIRD77.2 - Differential Subparameter Additions Bob Ross stated that he, Chris Reid, Arpad Muranyi and Michael Mirmak are now collaborating on these BIRDs based on some private meeting resolutions to get agreement. Bob issued a first draft, and Arpad and Michael are now working on further improvements to the text. We expect to release the documents next week. Assuming the documents are issued a vote is scheduled for the next teleconference meeting. BIRD78 - Comment Line Length Limit Lynne Green reported that she has drafted an updated version of BIRD78, but before posting she wanted clarification on the proposed 256 line length limit. Lynne asked if the limit should apply to all lines or just the comment lines. Bob Ross replied that the limit should apply to all lines. Furthermore, Bob he believes that a 256 line length limit is too long in that it makes the file unreadable. After additional discussion the consensus was reached that there was no compelling reason to extend the line length limit, at least not for the stated reason of accommodating long URLs. However, Lynne mentioned that extending the line length to 120 would match the ICM specification. Michael Mirmak then noted a potential problem in IBIS 4.0 with line lengths. If the voltage called out by the new keyword [Ext Ref] is added to the [Pin Map] keyword columns a line will exceed 80 characters. After further discussion Bob Ross suggested that it would be appropriate to update BIRD78, only this time proposing a 120 line length limit. Lynne will update the BIRD and reissue it for discussion at the next teleconference. BIRD79 - Non-linear buffer impedance (extension to C_comp) Arpad Muranyi introduced BIRD79, which was co-authored by Luca Giacotto of Alstom Transport and Arpad. BIRD79 is the result of work presented at the last IBIS face to face meeting out output impedance modeling. In brief, BIRD79 proposes adding an optional keyword [PZ Impedance]. This keyword allows modeling of buffer output impedances using a standard pole-zero representation, thus greatly supplementing the already existing C_comp parameter(s). Arpad noted that the BIRD allows four separate pole-zero tables, one for each of the allowed C_comp parameters in IBIS 4.0. Stephen Peters began the discussion by asking if, in light of multi-lingual modeling, this BIRD is still needed. Arpad pointed out that the information contained in this BIRD should be documented somewhere in IBIS. Stephen strongly agrees that we do not want to let Luca's work go undocumented, but Stephen suggested that it may be best to document this in the form of a white paper. Arpad remarked that the Data Derivation section may be appropriate. Bob Ross pointed out that tool makers may not want to implement the keyword if it can be done using multi-lingual techniques and further discussion centered on if this BIRD was appropriate for IBIS 4.1 or should it wait until tool makers have had a chance to the proposed BIRDs on multi-lingual modeling. No consensus was reached, and further discussion on this issue was tabled until the next meeting. BIRD74.2 - EMI Parameters Guy de Burgh stated that he will further refine the document per some suggestions by Bob Ross. Interconnect Modeling (ICM) Specification Comments Michael Mirmak opened this discussion by noting some limitations the specification places on the model developer. Currently, the rules for the [Model_type] keyword prevent a modeler from describing a particular connector in more than one model format. For example, a connector cannot be described using both an RLGC matrix and an S-parameter matrix. Bob Ross pointed out that the [ICM Model List] keyword can be used to enumerate different kinds of models for the same physical connector, but Stephen Peters pointed out that [ICM Model List] would then need to include a function analogous to the current IBIS [Model Selector] keyword. After further discussion Michael agreed to write up some proposed text that will address this issue. Another concern of Michael's dealt with limitation on the SGR (signal-ground ratio) subparameter. As currently documented, the numerator of this ratio is fixed at "1", but that makes it very awkward to document a ratio that does not reduce to an even fraction (e.g. 7:2, 5:3, etc.). After discussion it was decided that allowing the SGR subparameter to be a ratio of any two whole numbers was acceptable. Michael agreed to write up a proposed change to the draft specification. Michael touched on two other issues. The specification is not clear on whether it allows both single ended and "mixed mode" S-parameters, or single ended only. Lynne noted that Touchstone supports both types and tools will usually do an automatic conversion. Finally, Michael noted that the current RLGC matrix format does not indicate at what frequency the data was taken, and this would be desirable. Stephen remarked that the futures group did not address the issue of frequency dependent matrices because it was felt that frequency dependence would be handled by the S-parameters. More discussion on this issue is planned. IBISCHK3 & BUG TRACKING STATUS Stephen Peters reported that we have received the invoice from Atul Agarwal for the bug fix work performed in 2002. Invoice amount was $1048. Stephen asked for a motion to approve payment and on a roll call vote the motion passed unanimously. - BUG71 - Monotonic Checking for Combined I-V Tables - BUG74 - Missing Timing Test Load Warning Messages - BUG77 - Test for Series* Models in [Pin] Error - BUG78 - Clamp Current Double Counting Test Due to a lack of time discussion on the above bug reports was deferred to the next meeting. - BUG76 - External Package Under Win32 Requires Writeable Root Last meeting Lynne Green asked to discuss this BIRD, but the issue was resolved before hand so this bug can be removed from the agenda. NEXT MEETING: The next teleconference meeting will be on Friday, December 13, 2002 from 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM Pacific time. A vote on BIRD75.7 and BIRD77.2 is scheduled. ============================================================================ NOTES IBIS CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-1831 stephen.peters@intel.com Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation M/S JF4-215 2111 NE 25th Ave. Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961 VICE CHAIR: Lynne Green (425) 788-0412, Fax (425) 788-4289 lgreen@cadence.com Senior Modeling Engineer, Cadence Design Systems 20 120th Ave NE, Suite 103, Bellevue, WA 98005-3016 SECRETARY: Guy de Burgh (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259 guy_deburgh@mentor.com Senior Manager, Mentor Graphics 1369 Del Norte Rd. Camarillo, CA 93010-8437 LIBRARIAN: Roy Leventhal (847) 590-9398 roy.leventhal@ieee.org Consultant, Leventhal Design and Communications 1924 North Burke Drive Arlington Heights, Illinois 60004 WEBMASTER: Syed Huq (408) 525-3399, Fax: (408) 526-5504 shuq@cisco.com Manager, Hardware Engineering, Cisco Systems 170 West Tasman Drive San Jose, CA 95134-1706 POSTMASTER: John Angulo (425) 497-5077, Fax: (425) 881-1008 John_angulo@mentor.com Development Engineer, Mentor Graphics 14715 N.E. 95th Street, Suite 200 Redmond, WA 98052 This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA Manual of Organization and Procedure. The following e-mail addresses are used: majordomo@eda.org In the body, for the IBIS Open Forum Reflector: subscribe ibis In the body, for the IBIS Users' Group Reflector: subscribe ibis-users Help and other commands: help ibis-request@eda.org To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector (ibis@eda.org), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector (ibis-users@eda.org) or both. State your request. ibis-info@eda.org To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS Open Forum as a full Member. ibis@eda.org To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS technical enhancements. Job posting information is not permitted. ibis-users@eda.org To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and general user concerns. Job posting information is not permitted. ibischk-bug@eda.org To report ibischk2/3 parser bugs. The Bug Report Form Resides on eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs. To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt, /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, and /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt respectively. Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the Electronic Information Group under: http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis.htm Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous discussions and results. You can get on via FTP anonymous. ============================================================================