Colin, I don't see an open community Wiki-like structure ever getting vendor support. There is just too much exposure to unchecked, and potentially unfounded or even malicious criticism. We do not live in such an egalitarian society that vendors locked in tight competition might not try and get an edge in new product adoption by spreading FUD over their competitor's offerings. In a world where NDA's are required just to obtain data sheets I find it nearly impossible to believe vendors would expose themselves in such a public and difficult to control way. I think that if anything is going to come of this it would have to be either of the form of: a. Voluntary vendor disclosure of standards compliance or b. Vendor participation in compliance testing by an accepted neutral third party such as a standards committee (as neutral as those can be). Best regards, Steve colin_warwick@agilent.com wrote:Hi Jon, Yes, IP and updates are an issue, so the plan is to let IC vendors build a directory of links and/or "how-to-get-the-model" instructions, not the models themselves. Users will add reviews and ratings and IBISCHK scores. -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Marketing Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA blog http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Powell, Jon N Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:48 AM To: steve weir; si-list@freelists.org Cc: bob@teraspeed.com; ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Isn't there also a legal issue here? Who owns the IP or the copyright and who is going to be responsible for violation of said when a copy is kept in a database? Jon Powell EPSD Product SI 將 -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 6:58 PM To: si-list@freelists.org Cc: bob@teraspeed.com; ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Colin, Hosting is so cheap as to be a non-issue. Setting up the database mechanics is not particularly difficult either. The real cost is in the administration. In my opinion this needs people willing to serve as librarians who will act as the gate keepers so that the site is not overrun with junk. Best Regards, Steve. colin_warwick@agilent.com wrote:Hi, Thanks to everyone for the feedback and encouragement :-) There are several options each with pros and cons * Web page with an appointed honorary librarian * Wikis e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.wikimatrix.org/ * Discussion forums (bulletin boards) e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.forummatrix.org/ * Email reflectors like the si-list http://freelists.org * Shared document/table like a Google Docs spreadsheet. http://docs.google.com/ * Hybrids of the above like Google Wave http://wave.google.com which they say is a "next generation" email/collaboration/documentation tool Here are some issues with each: * Ease-of-use versus functionality: email is easy to use, but email reflectors and forums have limited searchablity and it's hard to aggregate threads of (possibility duplicative) conversations. * WYSIWYG versus markup languages: some wikis and forums require you learn a mark up language. * "One truth" (conclusion) versus "Let a hundred flowers blossom" (conversation) (yes, I do understand the irony of Mao Zedong's imperative): ** Wikis attempt to arrive at some sort of consensus between the editors on the readers' behalf (although there's usually a discussion page for editors behind the "real" page for readers) whereas ** Discussion Forums let everyone voice their own opinion and each reader has to plow through the threads to draw their own conclusion from the (possibly heated) conversation. * Reputation: How do you hold a contributor accountable for their contribution? How exclude spam in? * Privacy: How much info to do I have to submit to sign up? As a reader? As a writer? How to prevent harvesting of personal info by nefarious agents? * History/reversion: How do we track and undo "bad" edits? How to delete "bad" postings? * Who pays? There are plenty of "free" hosting sites, usually ad-funded. Do we want an ad free site by paying to self-hosting fee? If so, how do we split the check? * Structured versus unstructured: Do you want a rigorous database schema (specific column headings/fields for each row/record in (possibly interlinked) tables)? Or more free form? If structured, how to come to a consensus schema? * Who runs the thing? What are the costs and benefits for the admin? I added a second straw poll to the bottom of: http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-directory/ ...so you can vote for your favorite... Best regards, -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Howard Johnson Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:00 AM To: si-list@freelists.org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Hey Colin, I think you are on to a good idea. Individual users spend way too much time farting around trying to put together good IBIS models. Much of that effort seems wasted. I'd like to see the list include some sort of "user voting" feature so the readers of the list could see if other people found the model "useful". Some "wiki" type tools allow that kind of feedback and I believe it would be crucial, because I believe you will never get an official committee to vet the models -- it has to be done through independent user evaluations. Good luck, and keep plugging on this idea, it's a good one. Yes, I went to your link and voted. Best regards, Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc., tel +1 509-997-0505, howie03@sigcon.com www.sigcon.com -- High-Speed Digital Design seminars, publications and films -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 6:09 PM To: colin_warwick@agilent.com Cc: si-list@freelists.org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? My view on the usefulness of such a directory all depends on how well the directory would be maintained / policed and whether the directory would include information that would indicate the model's likely usefulness. There are a lot of IBIS ( HSPICE models as well for that matter ), that aren't particularly useful. Many have not been verified in any way. Some of them do not even parse. Anyway, if this is going to be undertaken, I would really like to see something similar to the way that the FPGA vendors list IP cores. Target Model Manufacturer Target Model Part Number Free or pay model Model basis: Raw original model, SPICE derived model, Measurement based model IBIS version Passed parser or not w/ parser version Model verified or not Link to model, or model supplier Steve colin_warwick@agilent.com wrote:Hi, Bottom line on top: Any interest in using and/or contributing to an IBISmodel directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Please vote in this informal straw poll:directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?Hi, I get several emails a month from customers asking "Is there an IBIS modelfor XYZ part from ABC IC vendor". I usually point them at:http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm If the info is out-of-date (as is often the case), I ask them to do an advanced Google search like: http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c om (replace someicvendordomain.com with the IC vendor's domain, obviously) But I'm wondering if there's a better way than "spray and pray" Googlingor burdening a single librarian with hundreds of update requests.Sooo...How about crowdsourcing? "Crowd-what-ing," you say? Here's a definition from wikipedia: 'Crowdsourcing is a neologistic compound of Crowd and Outsourcing for theact of taking tasks traditionally performed by an employee or contractor, and outsourcing them to a group of people or community, through an "open call" to a large group of people (a crowd) asking for contributions.'(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing ) Specifically, I'm wondering if we should create a table off of the mainIBIS page on wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica tion ...(or some other wiki) for IC vendors to update their info themselves. Itwould look something like this prototype I cobbled together:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information _Specification/Table_of_IBIS_models Thoughts? Please vote in this informal straw poll: http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di rectory/ and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this thread. Best regards, -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA
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