Text item: Text_1
Date: January 14, 1994
From: Derrick Duehren (503) 696-4299, fax (503) 696-4904
Third Party Vendor Program Manager
Xceleration Tools Group
(Will Hobb's IBIS Assistant)
Intel Corporation
Hillsboro, Oregon
and
Will Hobbs (503) 696-4369, fax (503) 696-4210
Intel Modeling Manager
Subject: Minutes from IBIS Open Forum 1/7/94
To:
Anacad Petra Osterman
AnSoft Henri Maramis*
Atmel Corporation Dan Terry
Cadence Design Sandeep Khanna, Chris Reed,
Pawel Chadzynski*, Kumar*
Contec Maah Sango*, Dermott Lynch,
Clark Cochran
High Design Technology Michael Smith
HyperLynx Steve Kaufer, Kellee Crisafulli*
Integrity Engineering Greg Doyle, Wayne Olhoft
Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Don Telian, Will Hobbs*
Arpad Muranyi, Derrick Duehren*
Interconnectix, Inc. Bob Ross*
Intergraph Ian Dodd*, David Wiens*
IntuSoft Charles Hymowitz
Logic Modeling Corp. Randy Harr
Mentor Graphics Greg Seltzer, Ravender Goyal*
Meta-Software Stephen Fenstermaker, Mei Wong* MicroSim
Arthur Wong, Jerry Brown, Graham Bell
North Carolina State U. Paul Franzon, Michael Steer
Performance Signal Integrity Vivek Raghawan, Eric Bracken*
Quad Design Jon Powell*
Quantic Labs Mike Ventham, Zhen Mu
Siemens Nixdorf Werner Rissiek, Ulas Rethneier*
Texas Instruments Bob Ward*
Thomson-CSF/SCTF Jean Lebrun
Zeelan Technology Hiro Moriyasu, George Opsahl,
Samie Samaan,Tay Wu
CC:
Intel Corporation Randy Wilhelm, Jerry Budelman,
Intel IBIS team
In the list above, attendees at the 1/7/94 meeting are indicated by *
Next Meeting: January 28, 1994, 8:15 AM to 10:00 PST.
*PLEASE NOTE THE The Phone number, reservation number, and
NEW TIME* agenda will be sent out in the week of Jan. 17.
Please note: If you know of someone new who wants to join the e-mail
reflector (ibis@vhdl.org), or have updates to your e-mail address, e-mail
to ibis-request@vhdl.org.
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Meeting Agenda
--------------
In keeping with the wishes of various participants, Will has arranged the
order to keep technical discussions later so that those who wish to leave
early may do so.
9:00 Check-in
9:05 Introductions of new IBIS members
9:10 12/3 Summit Minutes Review
Opens for New Issues
9:15 Another IBIS Press Release Hobbs
Enlisting new IC Vendors
Forms of EDA support of IBIS Hobbs
9:30 BIRD 5.2, Pin Mapping Bracken
EGG 1, mutual pin coupling Bracken
10:00 80 Column restriction?
Non-intrusive pkg param extraction Ward
Formal BNF notation Reed, Harr
VIH, VIL Thresholds for Inputs, BIRD 2 Powell
Spice to IBIS Converter
10:30 IBIS 2.0 Goals Hobbs
3D Modeling Muranyi
New model_types (r-packs, etc.)
Modeling Feedback Hobbs, Peters
10:45 Phased turn-on/off of multiple devices Powell
Open Side Devices Crisafulli
Other Updates (U of NC, DIE, etc.) All
10:55 Wrap-up, Next Meeting Plans
Minutes
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1. New members, 11/12 Minutes review, Open time for new issues:
There were no new members to announce and no corrections were made to
last month's minutes.
FYI, Paul Munsey was finally been paid by all the vendors who
contracted him to do the IBIS parser.
A/R: Everyone. Please use spaces instead of tabs in email. Tabs do
not display well for some recipients.
2. Another IBIS Press Release
Will Hobbs and Derrick Duehren are working on Intel-driven press
release. No results yet.
There have been several articles featuring IBIS. The most significant
was 12/8/93 EDN article which named IBIS as one of the hot 100 products
of 1993. A half-page feature article on IBIS appeared in the 12/16/93
Electronic Design magazine(Pg. 36). There was some concern that this
was a Cadence announcement, not an IBIS open-forum announcement.
Inquiries were to be directed to Karen
Kirkpatrick at Cadence. The consensus of the forum is that this is
acceptable as long as Cadence shares customer IBIS inquiries with IBIS
members. Pawel Chadzynski joined the meeting to tell us that they
had received only two inquiries from the article.
A Cadence press release was printed in EDN 11/25/93, IBIS was
mentioned.
A Japanese-language magazine printed an article featuring IBIS (one
paragraph in Technology News, a Nikkei Electronics publication).
Cadence and Mentor tools are discussed with Pentium(TM) processor
models from Intel and PowerPC models from Motorola/IBM.
A/R: Kumar to get IBIS contact clarified from Cadence. Cadence needs
to pass on customer inquiries, esp. semiconductor vendors, from the
EDN article to other IBIS companies.
The IBIS Overview doc is in vhdl.org and available through FaxBack
through Intel customer Support. Past IBIS minutes are also on
vhdl.org.
A/R: Derrick Duehren convert it to RTF and submit.
3. Enlisting new IC Vendors
Jon Powell is talking to National Semiconductor. He is working with
them to get models in IBIS format. Jon is planning to assist Motorola
in creating IBIS models for the PowerPC next month.
Will Hobbs read off the list of companies that requested IBIS
information since the last meeting. 17 total, including 10 IC
vendors:
AT&T Cypress
Thompson SCF Unicad (Bell Northern)
IBM Motorola
Micron National Semiconductor
Sun Network Systems
Thomatronik Rambus
Texas Instruments Tandem Computers
EMC corp. Loral Federal Systems (Radhard - space exploration)
Someone said they would follow up with Cypress. (Kellee?)
Bob Ward wanted to know who at TI requested the IBIS information.
A/R: Will Hobbs to get the name to Bob. Done
4. Forms of EDA support of IBIS
As of 1/7, Kellee was the only respondent so far to the request in
last month's minutes. Will is still soliciting your descriptions of
how each simulator vendor supports IBIS, which I will pass on to
customers and the IBIS Open Forum, if you wish.
Update: Since the meeting, we have received input from Intusoft and
Interconnectix.
Interconnectix: Bob Ross says that the Interconnectix product will be
able to read IBIS Version 1.1 models directly (NATIVE MODE). The
product will be able to read a text file composed of a library
of IBIS models.
Intusoft: Charles Hymowitz says that Intusoft takes a customer's
netlist or model and translates it into a spice model, free of charge.
They have the golden parser source but haven't, as of yet, automated
the process. They're waiting until there are more IBIS models
available.
A/R: Derrick to send separate email request.
5. BIRD 5.2, Pin Mapping for Ground Bounce Simulation
After a flurry of reflector discussion on this BIRD in early December,
the email discussion died down in the last few weeks. Eric Bracken
gave a summary of the major issues of the BIRD and the
differences between 5.0, 5.1, and 5.2. After a short discussion,
attendees agreed that all issues had been ironed out on reflector.
Upon vote, it was unanimously approved.
6. Egg 1, mutual pin coupling
Technical discussion of this Egg in IBIS 2.0 ensued. EGG 1 (Eric
Bracken coined the term, reasoning that an EGG precedes a BIRD, so an
early discussion that may lead to a BIRD should be called an EGG)
dealt with mutual coupling between signals in the package. Although
orthogonal to the pin mapping question (BIRD 5.2), it is related.
Eric's suggestion is to add an optional keyword and table
to IBIS that specifies mutual coupling. Quoting the original mail
from Eric:
[Mutuals] Pin1 Pin2 Rmut Lmut Cmut
1 2 1e-3 1n 1p
1 3 1e-4 0.1n 0.1p
Columns "Pin1" and "Pin2" contain numbers of pins which are coupled
together; the Rmut, etc. columns specify the values of the couplings.
Not every coupling must be specified (in the interest of sparsity);
you can assume that the self-inductances have been specified in the
[Pin] section (talk about backward compatibility!) And it all fits
into 80 characters.
Chris Reed of Cadence has offered to write a BIRD on mutuals. In the
meantime, we will continue this discussion on reflector.
7. IBIS 2.0 Goals
When is the right time to close on IBIS V2.0? Concern was expressed
that 1.1 does not support ECL, whereas 2.0 will support ECL, a fairly
pressing need, which could drive us to early closure on 2.0.
We need to get more semiconductor vendors on board first. The fear is
that a new major revision to IBIS will scare off new semiconductor
vendors, who might perceive that IBIS is an unstable moving target.
(Of course, we understand our commitment to backward compatibility and
the fact that IBIS as it currently stands is highly functional.) Jon
Powell proposed that we releasing 2.0 when 10 semiconductor vendors
come on board or in June, 1994, whichever occurs first. (A
semiconductor vendor on board is defined as 'people who say they are
developing models'). Several people volunteered to help vendors write
there first models.
This plan was agreed to and is now the plan of record.
8. 80 Column restriction?
The arguments for staying within 80 columns (too many VGA users, email
concerns, printers that truncate long lines rather than wrap,
potential for errors in models when part of the data may be off the
edge of the screen) outweighed those for using longer line lengths.
Consensus is that 80-columns is a better common denominator. General
agreement to use 80-col. until a specific insurmountable issue
arises that forces us beyond 80 characters per line.
9. Non-intrusive package parameter extraction
Bob Ward summarized two papers discussing slow-speed, non-intrusive
extraction methods based on TDR (Time Domain Reflectometry). An
engineer at TI produced a paper discussing immersion of components in
ultra-pure de-ionized water. Pure water is non-conductive, but has a
very dielectric constant (~38), slowing down the signals so they can
be measured. The measurements have to be taken very quickly because
the de-ionized water quickly becomes contaminated by the component and
the container.
Bob Canright of Convex did a paper on a related subject.
A/R: Bob Ward put both papers on reflector (with given permissions).
Bob may also conduct some of his own tests.
Will Hobbs mentioned that at the Summit, Jon Powell talked about
creating AC V/I curves. Jon said this idea didn't apply to
non-intrusive package parameter extraction because the method is used
to infer package parameters when customers already know full buffer
characteristics. The ones who are in a position to apply this method
already have access to this information.
10. Formal BNF notation
We needed Randy Harr and Chris Reed for this discussion. They were
not in the meeting. Bob Ward summarized that lex (scan) and yacc
(parse) UNIX utilities can be used to parse IBIS files if a formal
BNF exists for IBIS. Randy has done a preliminary BNF for IBIS, but
it needs to be completed. We will continue this discussion over the
reflector.
11. VIH, VIL Thresholds for Inputs, BIRD 2
Jon is in crunch mode for a major release. He won't be able to
address this issue until the end of the month, at which time he will
put together BIRD 2 and post it.
12. Spice to IBIS Converter
We need someone to do this converter development. U of NC is
reportedly doing this work under their ARPA (Gov't) funding. This
triggered discussion about analog simulation (Spice). We need
conversions from any analog simulator, which would require a standard
format for the output, such as V/I pairs. There is also the problem
that some simulators just generate wave forms, not tabular data.
Quad Design has a utility that converts ASCII V/T V/I data into Quad
design models successfully. Theoretically, the utility could also
generate IBIS models.
We discussed the need for a cookbook on how to generate and validate
the IBIS data properly. This is where guidance is badly needed,
specifications are needed.
A cookbook is in process for use within Intel. The cookbook discusses
how to generate data from both simulation and measurement, and how to
validate the models. Although the document contains Intel proprietary
information, large sections could be used publicly. Will Hobbs has
major sections in process, but they won't be ready for at least a
month. We took a $5K SWAG at contractor-writer effort to complete the
cookbook. Jon Powell proposed checking within organizations to see if
funding is available.
Many requested to be in the review cycle before publishing.
A/R: Derrick to do cost estimate for the next meeting.
13. Dues?
The discussion on hiring a technical writer triggered a discussion on
how to fund such an effort. Do we need an annual dues? Some ideas
were tossed about:
Voting members pay dues?
Cost figured by # of employees?
Corp./individual memberships?
Free for Universities?
The discussion was tabled. We will continue the discussion on
reflector and in the next meeting.
A/R: Each person to talk with their management/finance people about
funding/dues/comfortable contribution levels.
14. 3D Modeling
Arpad Muranyi had hoped to issues a BIRD on this subject but hasn't
gotten to it yet. He did, however, initiate a discussion on the
topic.
Can we make an assumption that each I/V/T curve is a scaleable curve?
In Arpad's present 3D modeling approach, there are two current curves
and four time-related curves, six curves total. A scaling function is
used to interpolate between the 2D curves to generate the surface
(family of V/T curves). Arpad has done some work with this and gotten
good results with simple devices. We felt that this simple approach
will probably work for standard CMOS, but will likely fall apart for
bi-polar devices.
Bob Ward said TI has experience with extremely short channel lengths
and are seeing unexpected results, so simple CMOS scaling may fall
apart under these conditions.
We recognized that a fair amount of R&D is required to further
understand this issue. This could be a great opportunity to get a
University involved. Simple scaling may be sufficient for now.
A/R: Cadence, Intel, and a third company (Quad Design ?) [sorry, my
notes are unclear. I was prying my laptop open with my Swiss army
knife during this discussion...] volunteered to work to get someone
from the U of NC to participate in these Open Forums. Can they do
some of this work?
15. New model_types (r-packs, etc.)
When are input thresholds mandatory and when not? Jon had previously
brought this up and offered to roll it into BIRD 2.1 as soon as he
gets off his release crunch.
16. Modeling Feedback
No worthy feedback yet. Both TI and Intel have a stake in this but
can't share the data because of real-world propriety issues.
17. Phased turn-on/off of multiple devices
Jon will address this following his BIRD 2.1 work. He will propose
including it in 2.1. He should be able to get to this in March.
18. Open Side Devices
No discussion. Kellee had left the meeting before this topic was
addressed.
19. Other Updates (U of NC, DIE, etc.)
Regarding Ravender's mail on extremely high frequencies, much
reflector activity is currently underway on this topic. Will Hobbs
pointed out that frequency dependence is a significant layout issue.
Transmission lines have a built-in frequency-dependent impedance due
to skin effect. Will said that some Intel engineers had been
struggling with this and felt that current simulation tools didn't
handle this. There was general disagreement among attendees about
this. Jon Powell said "Look up "skin effect" in the manual. Most
felt that this is a non issue.
There is still an open issue of package parameters. Is it time to go
to transmission line representation? This issue needs further study.
20. Wrap-up, Next Meeting Plans
New business: The group agreed to move the meeting time to 8:15 am to
10:00 am. PMT
Next meeting: 1/28/94
Received on Fri Jan 14 15:20:39 1994
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