DATE: December 19, 1995
SUBJECT: 12/15/95 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes
VOTING MEMBERS:
AT&T Global Info Solutions Dave Moxley*
Cadence Design Sandeep Khanna, C. Kumar*
Contec CAE, Ltd. Dileep Divekar*
HyperLynx Kellee Crisafulli
IBM Jay Diepenbrock
INCASES Werner Rissiek, Olaf Rethmeier
Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Will Hobbs, Arpad Muranyi*,
Derrick Duehren
Interconnectix, Inc. Bob Ross*
Meta-Software Les Spruiell, Mei Wong, You-Pang Wei,
John Sliney
Motorola Ron Werner
National Semiconductor Syed Huq*, Atul Agarwal, Cheng-Yang Kao
NEC Hiroshi Matsumoto, Eldar Yazbashevz
Quad Design Jon Powell*, Chris Myles, Chris Rokusek*
Quantic Labs Mike Ventham
Tanner Research, Inc. Scott Wedge, Ed Miller, Peter Parrish
Texas Instruments Roger Cline, Ben Andresen, Sri Jandhyadla*,
Tareq Shahwan*
Thomson-CSF/SCTF Jean LeBrun
UniCAD Canada Ltd. Stephen Lum
VLSI Technology Dick Ulmer*, Sung Oh
Zuken-Redac John Berrie
OTHER PARTICIPANTS:
AMP Hank Herrmann*
ARPA Randy Harr
Anacad Steffen Rochel
Ansoft Henri Maramis
Atmel Corporation Dan Terry
Cadlab Ralf Bruning
CFI Ron Christopher, Don Cottrell
Digital Equipment Corp. Barry Katz
EIA Patti Rusher*
High Design Technology Michael Smith, Dr. Ing. Cosso
Hewlett Packard Tom Langdorf, Karl Kachigan, Henry Wu
Integrated Silicon Systems Eric Bracken
Intergraph Ian Dodd, David Wiens, Walter Katz
IntuSoft Charles Hymowitz
LSI Logic Corp. Satish Pratadneni
Mentor Graphics Ravender Goyal, Greg Doyle
Micron Technology Brian Johnson
MicroSim Arthur Wong
North Carolina State U. Steve Lipa, Michael Steer
OptEM Engineering, Inc. Benny Leveille, Ken Ehn
Pacific Numerix Paul K. U. Wang
Symmetry Martin Walker
Synopsys, Logic Modeling G. Bill Lattin
Univ. of Illinois, Urbana Raj Mittra
Zeelan Technology George Opsahl, Hiro Moriyasu
(Independent) Bob Ward
In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *.
Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as
follows:
Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode
1/12/96 (916) 356-9200 2-41860 1918954
All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas out
7 days before each open forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after.
When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will
Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode.
NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.
-------------------------------- MINUTES -------------------------------------
INTRODUCTIONS
Jon Powell chaired the meeting.
Sri Jandhyadla and Tareq Shahwan joined us from Texas Instruments, Sherman
Texas. They have been providing IBIS models directly to customers on a
per request basis including models for JTAG devices and bus drivers. Models
provided include components in the LVT and ABT series. They are working
on GTL models. There is still discussion on how best to distribute IBIS
models.
EIA MEMBERSHIP AND TREASURER'S REPORT
The membership is the same and the treasury has been reduced by a payment
for parser code development. We estimate $7,000 to $8,000.
MINUTES REPORT, MISC.
The December, 1995 Minutes National Semiconductor Web Site has been corrected
to read:
http://www.natsemi.com
Two additional points by Hank Herrmann on the BIRD31 discussion are added
to the minutes. (1) Connector models will be discussed at the Face to Face
meeting, although specific items of discussion have not been identified.
(2) "not-fully-populated busses" could be modeled by separate models
rather than by partial models as the BIRD suggests. The minutes will
contain the more detailed discussion which Hank has sent to the reflector.
MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS
None.
PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES
"Meeting Timing and Signal Quality Requirements" in Printed Circuit Design,
December 1995 by Rod Strange and Peter Suaris mentions IBIS.
The web page discussion documented below occured at this time.
NEW MODELS
Syed Huq reports that some updated versions of National models have been
submitted to Michael Steer.
Arpad Murayni reports that information concerning the Intel 82439HX has
been sent to Michael Steer concerning IBIS model availability under NDA.
OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES
Egg9 - Transit Time Modeling.
EIA-656 ANSI RATIFICATION
Patti Rusher reported that on December 13, 1995, IBIS has been formally
ratified by ANSI as ANSI/EIA-656.
A motion was made by Bob Ross and seconded by Jon Powell to forward
ANSI/EIA-656 to IEC (International Electrotechnical Commission) working
group TC-93 on Design Automation as the first step toward international
ratification. Motion was approved by unanimous vote.
Patti will forward the document at a January meeting. She expects the
standardization process may take up to 3 years.
EIA/IBIS 1996 MEMBERSHIP
Patti Rusher will send out EIA/IBIS 1996 membership renewal forms in
early January instead of December.
EIA WEB UPDATE
Syed Huq has been working with Patti Rusher and Steven Malone on Web page
details. They are making excellent progress and will report on the
reflector when the Web page is up. All documents are approved.
Contents of the Web page include:
Intel EDN article
Links to vhdl.org for IBIS information including
Models
IBIS Specifications
Roster
FAQ's (Frequently Asked Questions)
Links to Member Companies Home Pages.
Syed needs to know which companies are member companies. Jon Powell has
logo information and Logos from 12 companies. Since HP nor NCSU are not
official members, their logos cannot be used. TI is planning to submit
a logo, (and sign the EIA/IBIS permission letter form set by Patti Rusher),
but at this time does not need a link to the company home page. Links
can be provided later. Jon Powell reported that the following companies
have supplied logos: Interconnectix, ATT-GIS, National Semiconductor
Quantic, Contec, Hyperlynx, Incases, Intel, Unicad, Quad Design, and
Cadence.
FACE TO FACE MEETING
Syed Huq has made arrangements for National to host the meeting on Monday,
January 29 before SuperCon96. So far he has 15 confirmations. Lunch and
snacks will be provided along with the meeting place. For those who are
staying over, plan on a celebration dinner together. Syed will send another
reminder giving more details on location.
TI indicated that they may send one or two people. Syed has made some
other semiconductor vendor contacts. While details will be firmed up
later, Intel and National are expected to participate on the model
development/model validation topic.
Other topics with details to be firmed up later are expected to cover
connector modeling, stored charge modeling, feedback mechanisms, TTL
measurements, adding more timing specifications, hysteresis, bus keeper
circuits, etc.
At Design SuperCon96 on January 30 - February 2, there will be at least two
presentations by National Semiconductor and one by Quad Design which will
refer to IBIS.
MODEL USAGE TRACKING
This issue will be dropped until there is further proposals by vendors.
National's Model listing on their Web site links directly to vhdl.org so
that only a single library is managed. Jon Powell found a Web site which
appeared to register participation. He will forward details to Syed Huq.
GOLDEN PARSER UPDATE
Several errors have been reported by Chris Rokusek to Bob Ross. One of
them will lend itself to a specification clarification BIRD since the
ibischk2 is functioning correctly.
These problems will be sent to Paul Munsey for an update expected early
next year.
AR - Anyone finding Parser bugs submit them to Bob Ross. Include a test
case, if possible.
SPICE TO IBIS VERSION 2.1
Bob Ross reported that a crash bug found by Altera has been sent to NCSU
on s2ibis-v2.091 (a Beta version).
WINIBIS (NEW DISCUSSION)
The Hyperlynx supplied utility was discussed. Bob Ross reported success
in using it on Windows 3.1. Dave Moxley and others reported problems
bringing it up on Windows NT. It gives a similar error to Windows 3.1 when
the latest Win32S is NOT loaded. The action item is to contact Kellee
Chrisafulli directly.
EGG8 - PHYSICAL PACKAGE DISCUSSION
No discussion.
BIRD31 - CONNECTOR MODELS
Some discussion occured and Bob Ross still plans to submit some examples
to the reflector. Bob indicated that the required keyword [Description]
for the expanded [Define Package Model] extension could be used to
place any edge rate or bandwidth limitation requested by Hank Herrmann.
Jon Powell raised the question regarding what EDA vendors are supposed
to do with this information.
BIRD28.3+ PACKAGE MODEL ENHANCEMENT
C. Kumar has sent a proposal to Stephen Peters for early review before
sending it out as a BIRD.
EGG6 - TTL and CMOS
Jon Powell reported that there exist counter-examples for all proposed
methods to distinguish the technologies from the data itself. However,
even though the transition mechanisms are different, he is thinking that
the test load to get the dynamic parameters are a more important factor.
So no change in the Specification may be needed. If he discovers some
test load set that works well, he will supply the recommendations.
EGG9 - HANDLING STORED CHARGE
Bob Ross discussed EGG9 and reflector comments. He agrees with Jon Powell
that RS is important. Jon indicated that it may not be a factor if RS
is less than 4 ohms. This needs to be validated. The issue is that the
transit time capacitance is modeled in parallel with the intrinsic diode,
to the time constant remains constant. When the IBIS Clamp table is used,
the effective RS is also included. This makes the time constant vary
with forward diode currents, and may cause different effects. Since
the IBIS Clamp table can represent a clamping circuit instead of just one
diode or transistor, the notion of an effective TT is put forth. It may be
derived indirectly - supply the TT that matches the desired performance,
as opposed to trying to use the TT in a Spice model or obtained directly.
For background, Bob indicated that other approaches are possible for this
problem. (1) A complete simplified verion of the diode equation used by
Spice could be added (the set of parameters would be specified to describe
this diode) and the Clamp tables would be difference currents from the
measured IV characteristics. (2) Or a best fit diode equation could
be extracted form the tables to estimate RS and intrinsic diode, although
experience indicates that this does not always give a reasonable estimate.
This will be a topic for the face to face discussion and is open for more
reflector discussion.
HYSTERESIS AND INPUT RISE TIME SPECIFICATION (NEW DISCUSSION)
Arpad Muranyi discussed IBIS USERS' GROUP reflector questions from John
Fitzpatrick. One question dealt with whether IBIS supports hysteresis.
Bob Ross indicated that hysteresis could be supported by putting in the
smaller threshold for Vinh and the larger one for Vinl. This may work
for timing limits. One question is whether the actual threshold values
or the specification limits should be used. The data itself may cause
a too conservative timing estimate for a hysteresis input designed to
tighten up the timing tolerances. So there is expected to be more
discussion on this subject at the Face to Face Meeting.
Another topic concerned a Tinr and Tinf input rise and fall time
specification. This would be similar to the threshold limits Vinh and
Vinl that are specification limits for the [Model]. A few devices do
have input rise and fall specifications. For some cases, if the input
is too slow the device can be destroyed. In other cases, it may be
needed to assure compliance with other timing specification. This also
can be a topic for the Face to Face Meeting.
DOUBLE COUNTING OF PULLUP AND PULLDOWN RESISTORS (NEW DISCUSSION)
Arpad Muranyi recounted his experience and caution that one must understand
the Clamping tables when modeling devices with internal pullup or pulldown
resistors to avoid double counting the resistors. Bob Ross indicated
that it is permissible to supply data outside of the (minimum) ranges
mandated by the Specification. The minimum ranges are appropriate for
most devices where the clamps will converge to nearly 0ma at the Vcc points.
With an internal pullup, for example the [Power Clamp] table would
be extended all the way to -Vcc to accurate model its effect. Arpad
has correctly taken this into account in the models he has supplied and
cautions others to be alert to double counting problems if they have
internal pullup and pulldown elements. Dick Ulmer indicated that the
values may be negligible (e.g., 50k) for many cases. However, there can
be cases where the elements are significant.
NEXT MEETING:
It is set on Friday, January 12, 1996, and the Face-to-Face Meeting is on
Monday, January 29, 1996.
==============================================================================
NOTES
IBIS CHAIR: Will Hobbs (503) 264-4369, Fax (503) 264-4210
will_hobbs@ccm.jf.intel.com
Server Chipset System Validation Manager, Intel Corp.
2111 NE 28th M/S JF1-57, Hillsboro, OR 97124 USA
VICE CHAIR: Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
jonp@qdt.com
1385 Del Norte Rd., Camarillo, CA 93010
SECRETARY: Bob Ross (503) 603-2523, fax (503) 639-3469
bob@icx.com
10220 SW Nimbus Ave, K4, Portland, OR 97223
The following email addresses are used:
ibis-request@vhdl.org
To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector
(ibis@vhdl.org), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector (ibis-users@vhdl.org)
or both. State your request.
ibis-info@vhdl.org
To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions
for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS
Open Forum as a full Member.
ibis@vhdl.org
To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector. This
is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS
technical enhancements.
ibis-users@vhdl.org
To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector. This is
used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and
general user concerns.
Check the pub/ibis directory on vhdl.org for more information on previous
discussions and results. You can get on via ftp anonymous, "guest" login from
telnet or dial-in (415-335-0110), or send an email request to the automatic
archive server, archive@vhdl.org.
"IBIS Spoken Here" placards are available from Jon Powell (jonp@qdt.com) for
use at trade shows.
==============================================================================
Received on Tue Dec 19 09:34:20 1995
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