Date: 8/28/00
SUBJECT: 8/25/00 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes
VOTING MEMBERS AND 2000 PARTICIPANTS LIST:
3Com Roy Leventhal
Agilent (EEsof, etc.) Mark Chang
Ansoft Corporation (Eric Bracken)
Applied Simulation Technology Raj Raghuram, Norio Matsui, Fred Balistreri
Avanti Nikolai Bannov
Cadence Design Mike LaBonte*, Todd Westerhoff, Ian Dodd*,
Donald Telian, Patrick Dos Santos
Cisco Systems Syed Huq, Irfan Elahi, John Fisher
Compaq [Bob Haller], Peter LaFlamme, Ron Bellomio,
Shafier Rahman, Doug Burns
Cypress (Rajesh Manapat)
EMC Corporation (Fabrizio Zanella),
Fairchild Semiconductor Craig Klem
HyperLynx (& Pads Software) Matthew Flora*, Kellee Crisafulli, Gene Garat,
John Angulo*, Al Davis, Lynne Green
IBM Michael Cohen*, Greg Edlund, Jerry Hayes
Innoveda (Viewlogic Systems) Chris Rokusek, Guy de Burgh*, Jun Tian,
Cary Mandel, Brad Griffin, (Jon Powell)
Intel Corporation Stephen Peters, Arpad Muranyi*, Will Hobbs,
Richard Mellitz, Charles Phares, Meir Nakar,
Sigeti Gabi, Tudor Secasiu*, Dave Lorang*
LSI Logic (Larry Barnes)
Mentor Graphics (& Veribest) Bob Ross*, Tom Dagostino, Malcolm Ash,
Kim Owen, Jean Oudinot, Sherif Hammad,
Hazam Hegazy, Weston Beal, Ken Bakalar
Micron Technology (Randy Wolff)
Mitsubishi Shahab Ahmed, Carleen Murphy
Molex Incorporated Gus Panella
Motorola Ron Werner
National Semiconductor Milt Schwartz*
North East Systems Associates Edward Sayre, Tony Sinker
Nortel Networks Steve Coe, Calvin Trowell, Hassan Ali
Philips Semiconductor D.C. Sessions*, Todd Andersen
(& VLSI Technology)
Quantic EMC (Mike Ventham)
Robinson-Nugent, Inc. (Alexander Barr)
Siemens AG Bernhard Unger, Gerald Bannert
SiQual Scott McMorrow, Wis Macomson
Texas Instruments Stephen Nolan, Ramzi Ammar, Mac McCaughey,
Thomas Fisher, Jean-Claude Perrin,
Jean-Yves Oberle
Time Domain Analysis Systems Dima Smolyansky, Steven Corey
Tyco Electronics (AMP) (Russell Moser)
Via Technologies (Weber Chuang)
Zuken (& Incases) Werner Rissiek, John Berrie
OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 2000:
Actel Corp. Silvia Montoya
Advansis Mikio Kiyono
Aerospatiale Matra CCR Lionel Dreux, Julien Boullie
Alcatel (Lannion, Bell) Daniel Peron, Steven Criel
Brocade Communications Robert Badal
ECI Telecom Daniel Adar
EIA Cecilia Fleming*
Fraunhofer Institute Michael Kurten
Jet Propulsion Lab John Treichlew
Hewlett Packard Paul Gregory
Rockwell Collins Ron Hau
Signals & Systems Engineering Tom Hawkins
ST Micorelectronics Fabrice Boissiere, Pierre Saintot
Sun Microsystems Victor Chang
Thomson-CSF Savenrio Lerose, Pascal Vaslin, Thierry Zak,
Sylvie Lasserre
Transfer Hans Klos, Wilco Hamhuis
Xilinx, Inc. Susan Wu
Independent, Consultant Hideki Fukuda
In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal
members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses.
Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets.
Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as
follows:
Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode
September 14, 2000 IBIS Summit Meeting - No Teleconference
All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas out
7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after.
When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will
Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode.
NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.
-------------------------------- MINUTES -------------------------------------
INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM
Tudor Secasiu of Intel in Oregon joined. Tudor is in the Technical Research
Laboratory working on electrical design of high speed interfaces. He is
interested in portability of models.
Dave Lorang of Intel in Arizona is in a signal integrity group working on
AGP interfaces. He uses IBIS models and wants to get up to speed on
simulation and modeling issues.
MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT
Bob Ross announced that Micron Technology has joined the EIA IBIS Open Forum
(listed as a Voting Member in these Minutes). We now have 34 members.
REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S
The August 11, 2000 IBIS Minutes were approved.
The AR's will be discussed during the meeting.
MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS
Bob Ross reported that there is some restructing at EIA and that the EIA
standards groups are now positioned under GEIA. Cecilia Fleming stated that
this should not have any impact on us. We are still part of an offically
accredited standards producing organization.
PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES
Bob Ross reported that there are on-going roster updates as we get new
members and other entry updates.
Bob also reported on an academic presentation on "Behavioral Modeling of
Digital Devices via Black-Box Identification" by F.G. Canaverl, I.A. Maio,
and I.S. Sievano from the Politecnico di Torino, Torino, Italy presented at
the May, 2000 IEEE Workshop on Signal Propagation on Interconnects. The
paper includes references to IBIS modeling and is at:
http://www.eln.polito.it/Ricerca/emc/papers.html
and the presentation is at:
http://gauss.tet.uni-hannover.de/SPI/2000/pres2000.htm
Cecilia Fleming asked the group if they had experienced the "sticky" IBIS
home page link when the original URL is given:
http://www.eia.org/eig/ibis/ibis.htm
The "Back" does not work. D.C. Sessions commented that this is a known
Netscape only browser limitation that occurs when a link is aliased from
another link. The new IBIS home page link is:
http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis.htm
and the original link now redirects itself to the new link. Thus old links
in other web pages to the EIA Open Forum home page still work, but one cannot
escape back to the higher page. The Netscape solution is to hold the "Back"
button and get a list of previous links to select. Usually the second
selection gets you back to the calling page. So there is no further action
needed by Cecilia to fix the problem.
NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE
Mike LaBonte updated the IBIS Model page. He now has a Perl script for
checking the links, which saves him time as more model links are documented.
He also reports to various vendors problems in their models.
OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES
Several were raised during the meeting:
Cecilia Fleming on Sticky IBIS home page review - covered in the Press and
Web Page Updates section
Mike Labonte on waveform warnings from ibischk3 - covered in the ibischk3
Bug Tracking section
Others on IBIS-X instead of IBIS Version 4.0 and the IBIS Connector
Specification - covered in the IBIS Futures section
INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS
- IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 3.2) - Cecilia Fleming reported there has been
communication between EIA and IEC on the progress of a number of standards.
Bob Ross stated that we will probably still need to help draft some header
information.
- pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits
(IMIC) - No report.
- IEC PWI 93-1 Models of Integrated Circuits for EMI Behavioral Simulation
(formerly designated as IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation) - Bob Ross
had no report and restated that he is waiting for some updated information
that he can upload or distribute.
- JEDEC JC-16 - Modeling and Testing - D.C. Sessions reported that the next
meeting will be in Denver on September 13. Other related groups (JC-40,
JC-42) will also be meeting that week. The main activities of interest are
work on SSTL-1.8 and DDR 2. Anyone on the IBIS committee is welcome to attend,
D.C. Sessions will provide the Chairman's invitation required for non JEDEC
members. (Contact D.C. Sessions at dc.sessions@vlsi.com.)
Cecilia Fleming and D.C. noted that IBIS meetings may overlap with JEDEC, but
may be at different locations. Cecilia provided Bob Ross a list of JEDEC
meeting sites and locations through the end of 2001 so that we might co-locate
meetings. Normally IBIS meetings are co-located with major trade shows in
which EDA vendors traditionally participate. However, future working group
meetings could consider co-locating with some of the JEDEC meetings. D.C.
added that JEDEC usually negotiates great hotel rates.
The list is future JEDEC meeting locations are:
September 12, 2000 Denver, Colorado
December 5 , 2000 Hawaii
March 6, 2001 San Diego, California
June 5, 2001 Tokyo (location not definite)
September 11, 2001 Las Vegas, Nevada
December 4, 2001 Hawaii (location not definite)
PCB EAST 2000 IBIS SUMMIT MEETING PLANNING
Bob Ross reported that the plans are in place for the IBIS Summit Meeting
scheduled on Thursday, September 14, 2000 in Worcester, Massachusetts and
held along with the PCB East Conference 2000. The IBIS meeting will be at the
Crowne Plaza hotel, a few blocks from the PCB East Conference. The meeting
is co-sponsored by Cadence, HyperLynx, Mentor Graphics and NESA. While we
could use more co-sponsors, the financials indicate that the current set of
sponsors will cover the expenses. Kathy Breda sent out the second notice.
She also plans to send it out to the Signal Integrity reflector. More
announcements will follow to confirm signups. Bob estimated that we have
from 15 to 20 so far and expect about 30 to 40 at the meeting. Bob asked
vendors to investigate providing an electronic projector for the meeting to
avoid the high rental cost.
Bob listed some presentations and discussion topics planned for the meeting:
IBIS Present and Future - Bob Ross, Mentor Graphics
Roy Leventhal, 3Com, - "IBIS and SI at 3Com" - Roy Leventhal, 3Com
(Presented by Mike LaBonte, Cadence)
IBIS-X and Futures Discussion - Mike LaBonte, Cadence
Code Based Models - Tudor Secasiu, Intel
An Escape Hatch for Leading Edge Simulation - Will Hobbs, Intel
IBIS Connector Specification and Discussion - Kellee Crisafulli, HyperLynx
IBIS Swath Matrix Expansion - Bob Ross, Mentor Graphics
Bob noted that with open discussions and possible ad hoc presentations,
this program should extend from 8:30 AM to 5:00 PM as planned.
D.C. Sessions commented that according to JEDEC rules, all presentations must
be made available in .pdf acrobat format. This is more stable than other
formats which evolve over time, making reading older presentations more
difficult and less efficient. Bob stated that we do not have a requirement
on this. However, in the next annoucement, we will suggest that .pdf versions
of the presentations be made available for uploading. Someone commented that
slides in .pdf format cannot be "stolen" or modified by someone else. Bob
also stressed that we will want presentations submitted beforehand so that we
can have handouts for the meeting.
DESIGNCON 2001 IBIS SUMMIT MEETING PLANNING
Bob Ross noted that National Semiconductor is a co-sponsor of this meeting
and will provide the lunch. DesignCon is the other co-sponsor as a result of
IBIS Associate Sponsorship of DesignCon 2001. The early planning has been
done.
IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION
Matthew Flora reported that some Marvel Technology Group models have been
distributed for review. Also an STMicroelectronics model was just sent to
the Model Review group.
Matthew stated that John Angulo will be taking over the task of coordinating
model reviews. Matthew and John will take care of contacting Syed Huq
to change the IBIS Support and FAQ's links to John's e-mail address for Model
Review services.
CONNECTOR PROPOSAL REVIEW (CONTINUED)
Bob Ross reported that the next Working Group meeting is on August 29, 2000.
Good progress is continuing to stabilize the syntax and to deal with some
technical issues. The Working Group has some internal, updated documents for
internal review. The Working Group is finalizing these documents and should
be releasing them to the IBIS Open Forum for review in the near future.
IBIS FUTURES (IBIS-X, API, BIRDxx)
Mike LaBonte reported on the IBIS Future Working Group activity. The Working
Group is now meeting weekly. It is continuing to work on the macro language
approach presented earlier by Al Davis. Progress has been good. Also the
Working Group will be planning the presentations for the IBIS Summit Meeting.
One general discussion topic is to decide how much to include for fast release
versus how comprehensive it should be for the long term.
Bob Ross added that the macro language approach supports compatibility with
existing IBIS Version 3.2 and also some Spice-like nodal constructs for
extendibility. Further, the nodal language supports a rich set of equation
parameters and table parameters. The focus so far is on buffer modeling.
The Working Group has been discussing series elements and the series switch
elements to test and refine the macro language. Mike added that the Working
Group intends to prototype the macro language in a simulator before releasing
it.
More discussion later in the meeting. D.C. Sessions suggested that we release
the document and move more rapidly on this. Arpad Muranyi noted that while
progress has been excellent, a complete document has not yet been generated.
One needs to be a Working Group participant to understand some of the
content. Presently the documentation consists of e-mail correspondence and
a number of different attachment proposals. So a lot of detail still needs to
be documented. Bob added that the current discussions involve using the
macro language for buffer descriptions, and Mike LaBonte plans to issue a
corresponding proposal for describing the pin mapping. While there has been
excellent progress and some significant defacto decisions regarding focusing
on the macro language (rather than other directions such as VHDL-AMS, XML,
etc.) a lot more work is needed before the macro language proposal can be
released.
We continued discussing the documentation issue. Mike suggested forming
another committee to consolidate the information and the document the macro
language to a standards quality level. Arpad Muranyi suggested doing this at
an all-day Working Group session on the day following the IBIS Summit Meeting.
Ian Dodd stated that a BNF description is needed to formalize the macro
language and to ensure that it is well-structured. He is willing to join the
Working Group and help do this. John Angulo re-affirmed that the language
needs to be prototyped before it is released.
Arpad questioned whether we need a separate Connector Specification. He also
needs upgrades in the package model portion of IBIS. Arpad suggested that
the Connector Specification activity be merged with IBIS Version 3.2 and that
package model extensions also be done. Bob commented that we had decided at
an earlier meeting to work independently on just a Connector Specification
project for several reasons: speed up the development and approval process,
avoid being constrained by a number of existing IBIS format limitations, and
leveraging on the strong interest over the years by several connector vendors
to get a connector-specific format. Bob also suggested that perhaps the macro
language could also use macros to describe the new connector specification
and possibly configure the electrical connector details as package model
details that surround the set of buffers of the component.
Bob concluded the discussion and suggested that these types of concerns can
be discussed further at the IBIS Summit Meeting.
IBISCHK3 BUG TRACKING
Bob Ross reported that he has still needs to check the current BUG fix status
with Atul Agarwal. Several BUGs are in the queue and two more are to be
processed.
- BUG42 - Warning Message for Outputs with Thresholds Needed
Bob opened the discussion on BUG42 by noting that it had been classified.
The action to fix it has been delayed pending some final Warning message
text. Matthew Flora proposed the following revised wording to the local
ibischk-bug reflector:
"WARNING (line xxx) - Input thresholds (Vinh and Vinl) are meaningless in
buffers that can't be inputs (Model_type Output, 3-state, Open_drain, etc.)"
Bob felt comfortable with the wording since it reported more thoroughly the
conditions were should be checked. Matthew commented that he intended the
message to be helpful to anyone at any level, not just the expert model
developers.
After futher discussion, the Committee agreed to use the new message. So
BUG42 will be amended with the new message and then sent to Atul for
inclusion in the updated ibischk3 code.
- BUG46 - Warning Message Missed for Typ Outside of Min and Max
Bob commented that BUG46 submitted by Matthew was discussed and classified
at the last meeting. However, since a number of questions and points were
raised, we deferred the decision to this meeting on what whether or not to
do the changes. Matthew commented that two locations to provide the fix
change were reported. He stated that could even do the fix himself after
he received some stable source code from Atul. However, Bob stated that he
still wanted Atul to control the source code and do the fix. Matthew could
provide direct advice and assistance. A fix often means generating or
modifying the "regression" test suite.
After some more discussion, the Committee decided to submit BUG46 to Atul
for fixing. Matthew commented that BUG46 was not uploaded in the directory
where bugs are stored [fixed].
Mike LaBonte commented that the ibischk3.2 parser issues a Warning message
when waveform table end points do not correspond to the I-V table data. This
is one of the largest sources of model error. The Warning message is issued
based on an arbitary 2% mismatch. Bob commented that a Warning rather than an
Error message was chosen since the 2% value was arbitrarily set. Mike
questioned whether an Error message should be issued, and asked what threshold
percentage should it be? Bob and Mike agreed that this was a significant
reason for many bad IBIS models. The vendors may assume that if ibischk3
passes the model, even with Warning messages, it can be released. D.C.
Sessions commented that he is contracting IBIS model development code and
specifying setting a threshold precentage of 1% for table truncation. D.C.,
Mike and others commented that early truncation of V-T tables was one reason
why some vendors produced IBIS models with V-T end point mismatches. Some
model developers may be constrained by the current 100 point table limit.
They may be trading off detailed resolution needed for fast responses and
the time needed for the response to settle to the final value. D.C. also
suggested that the comments be added in the IBIS file regarding the method
used to derive the data.
Mike noted that bad models may be processed differently by different EDA
vendors. Most vendors try to compensate in a most reasonable manner when
there is conflicting information. However, such compensations may vary
among different EDA tools. Ian Dodd suggested that one might have to
choose whether to adjust either the V-T or V-I data. Bob commented that
because the model data has to be changed, it is fundamentally bad. There is
not any defendable method to correct it.
D.C. Sessions suggested that a model test case be developed with scripts for
a set of mismatch errors. This would be used to investigate the impact of
actual waveform mismatches on EDA simulator tool accuracy. The purpose
would be to find the tolerance threshold which should be used for reporting
an Error. Bob commented that while this was a good idea, the IBIS Open Forum
needed to stay out of commercial vendor comparison activities. Bob suggested
that Warning messages be retained as is and that an Error message be issued
if the mismatch is 10% or greater. This is an arbitrarily large enough
number designed to catch the very significant waveform mismatches. Mike
Labonte volunteered to write up the BUG report. We can then use it as a basis
for further discussions regarding exact setting levels and Warning and Error
reports.
BIRD61.1 - ENHANCED CHARACTERIZATION OF RECEIVERS
Bob Ross commented that we have not made progress in this area. Also, the
IBIS Futures macro language proposal will probably be able to handle receiver
models. The vendors can develop the behavioral model macro blocks and test
them against actual receiver models. There are a number of people on the
IBIS Futures Working Group who want the macro language adopted quickly, and
even ahead of the planned IBIS Verson 4.0. Arpad Muranyi commented that IBIS
Version 4.0 has not been finalized as rapidly as expected, and the needs may
be better served with the macro language. Bob felt that processing the open
BIRDs were still valuable. Because of Committee consensus, the actual
implementation would also be done in the macro language. More discussion
occured on macro language extensions that are captured in the IBIS Futures
section above.
100 POINTS ISSUE
The 100 point issue was introduced earlier in the meeting than scheduled as
a result of the other extended discussions on IBIS Futures. Bob Ross
commented that the 100 point table limitation subject had been discussed
previously on the e-mail reflector and at some previous IBIS Meetings.
The general consensus was to change the specification to allow more than 100
points in tables. We now need a BIRD to move forward on this issue. Bob
suggested adopting one previously stated option of changing the limit to
1000 points for just the Waveform tables. When the BIRD is issued, we might
consider whether to set this limit uniformly for all tables. Someone asked
whether EDA simulators actually reject waveform tables larger than 100 points.
Bob believed that most will currently accept larger tables. However, some may
use an unmodified ibischk3 parser source code for the IBIS model reader and
comply with the 100 point limit.
Ian Dodd agreed to write the BIRD for this issue. Bob stated that he could
help.
BIRD64.1 - PACKAGE MODEL SELECTOR
Some further discussion and a vote was scheduled for BIRD64.1 at this meeting.
However, time ran out before we could fully address this topic and all of the
remaining topics on the agenda.
BIRD65 - C_comp REFINEMENTS
Not discussed.
BIRD66 - [Model Spec] Vref ADDITION
Not discussed.
NEXT MEETING:
The next meeting is the IBIS Summit Meeting on Thursday, September 14, 2000
from 8:30 AM to 5:00 PM. No teleconference access is planned.
==============================================================================
NOTES
IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897
bob_ross@mentor.com
Modeling Engineer, Mentor Graphics
8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070
VICE CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515
sjpeters@ichips.intel.com
Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation
M/S JF1-209
2111 NE 25th Ave.
Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961
SECRETARY: Guy de Burgh (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
gdeburgh@innoveda.com
Senior Manager, Innoveda
1369 Del Norte Rd.
Camarillo, CA 93010-8437
LIBRARIAN: Mike LaBonte (978) 262-6496, Fax: (978) 446-6798
mikelabonte@cadence.com
Senior Technologist, Cadence Design Systems
270 Billerica Road
Chelmsford, MA 01824
WEBMASTER: Syed Huq (408) 525-3399, Fax: (408) 526-5504
shuq@cisco.com
Manager, Hardware Engineering, Cisco Systems
170 West Tasman Drive
San Jose, CA 95134-1706
POSTMASTER: John Angulo (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008
angulo@hyperlynx.com
Development Engineer, HyperLynx, Inc.
14715 N.E. 95th Street, Suite 200
Redmond, WA 98052
This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA
Manual of Organization and Procedure.
The following e-mail addresses are used:
ibis-request@eda.org
To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector
(ibis@eda.org), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector (ibis-users@eda.org)
or both. State your request.
ibis-info@eda.org
To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions
for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS
Open Forum as a full Member.
ibis@eda.org
To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector. This
is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS
technical enhancements. Job posting information is not permitted.
ibis-users@eda.org
To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector. This is
used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and
general user concerns. Job posting information is not permitted.
ibischk-bug@eda.org
To report ibischk2/3 parser bugs. The Bug Report Form Resides on
eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs.
To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms
which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt,
/pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, & /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt
respectively.
Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual
IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the
Electronic Information Group under:
http://www.eigroup/ibis/ibis.htm
Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous
discussions and results. You can get on via FTP anonymous.
==============================================================================
Received on Tue Aug 29 13:46:35 2000
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