IBIS - EIA IBIS Open Forum Activity: RE: [IBIS] IBIS-ISS Package

From: Muranyi, Arpad <Arpad_Muranyi@mentor.com>
Date: Fri Jul 20 2012 - 09:56:45 PDT

Ray,

Regarding: "I think a good solution is something that works kind of like the
current .pkg method but with expanded capabilities (support for s-parameters
and the inclusion of coupled PDN nets for a start)."

(at the expense of starting to sound like a broken record),
that's exactly what I am proposing in BIRD 125. Together
with BIRD 145 it would allow arbitrary package and/or on-die
interconnect topologies around legacy [Model] or [External
Model] keywords for power and/or signal. The model maker can
decide whether they want to include power or signal or both
with or without coupling.

But I have a question for you. When you talk about including
S-parameter models instead of RLC or T-lines, are you talking
about referencing a T-stone file directly, or are you talking
about referencing an IBIS-ISS subcircuit in which there might
be RLC, W, Touchstone, etc... elements?

Thanks,

Arpad
================================================================

From: owner-ibis@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis@eda.org] On Behalf Of Ray Anderson
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 11:18 AM
To: ibis@eda.org
Cc: Lynne C. Green; Ray Anderson
Subject: RE: [IBIS] IBIS-ISS Package Modeling Status/Overview

Lynne-

S-parameters are not currently supported in .pkg files (only RLC matrix data and lossless t-lines).

It would be convenient if the same mechanism that is used to include RLC matrix data in .pkg format could also support s-parameter data. I say this since we (Xilinx) have a software tool that generates IBIS simulation decks for the user based on the drivers selected as well as the specific package and BGA ball selected. Currently we utilize .pkg formatted RLC package models, but would like to move to something with greater bandwidth.

One of the downsides of the .pkg method as it currently stands is that it doesn't support inclusion PDN nets. I think a good solution is something that works kind of like the current .pkg method but with expanded capabilities (support for s-parameters and the inclusion of coupled PDN nets for a start).

-Ray

From: Lynne C. Green [mailto:lgreen22@mindspring.com]<mailto:[mailto:lgreen22@mindspring.com]>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:06 PM
To: Ray Anderson
Cc: ibis@eda.org<mailto:ibis@eda.org>
Subject: Re: [IBIS] IBIS-ISS Package Modeling Status/Overview

Good points, Ray.

What would you think of including S-params under *.pkg (if they aren't already)? That would be attractive, because many EDA tools already support IBIS Touchstone. While the existing RLGC matrix format could be used, Touchstone is my preference.

Anybody happen to know which formats are supported in .pkg for IBIS 5.0?

Personally, I would love to see all of the "external" formats (IBIS Touchstone, SPICE, VHDL-AMS, etc.) supported for package modeling.

Cheers,
Lynne

On 7/19/2012 3:18 PM, Ray Anderson wrote:
Responding to Lynne's question #2: If not, what is fundamentally missing? How is the missing info related to SI/PI simulation? Could info unrelated to simulation be entered as comments for use by other tools?

Not knowing what will eventually shake out from the ongoing conversations, a few items that I see as fundamentally missing at this point in time is:

1. Wide bandwidth model topology (read that DDR3, DDR4 and beyond).

a. The current .pkg RLC based model doesn't cut it from a BW perspective.

b. Possible topologies that could be supported as ISS subcircuits include s-parameters, W-element, multi-section RLC.

2. Model should be able to accommodate multiple non-equal length lines.

a. In packages, differential pairs usually don't have exactly equal length lines, When you are concerned about skew issues on the order of pSecs it is important to be able to define the length of each line accurately.

b. For non-s-parameter based models, a way to support the above item via parameters would be most useful.

3. Inclusion of power nets along with signal nets in the same package.

a. This is important when doing SSN type simulations to capture the coupling between the signal and power nets.

4. The ability to include an arbitrary number of coupled nets in a model.

Some of these items may be addressed in some of the pending BIRDs, but for the simulations that are important to me, all of the above capabilities will be important.

-Ray

Raymond Anderson
Senior Signal Integrity Staff Engineer
Programmable Platforms Development
Silicon Technology Group
Signal Integrity and Package Development Department
Xilinx Inc.
2100 Logic Drive
San Jose, California 95124
(408) 626-6277

From: owner-ibis@eda.org<mailto:owner-ibis@eda.org> [mailto:owner-ibis@eda.org] On Behalf Of Lynne C. Green
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 2:38 PM
To: Mirmak, Michael
Cc: ibis@eda.org<mailto:ibis@eda.org>
Subject: Re: [IBIS] IBIS-ISS Package Modeling Status/Overview

Interesting conversation going on.

History: One package model has been codified as .pkg. A specific interface was addressed by adding "dynamic" keywords. [External Circuit] and [External Model] might have some of the desired features, except IBIS assumes there must be a pin model between the I/O pad and the external circuit.

Having been an I/O designer, an EDA engineer, and an IBIS model reviewer, these questions come to my humble mind. Maybe they will help stir the pot.
Question 1: Could one of the existing package syntax approaches be used/extended?
Question 2: If not, what is fundamentally missing? How is the missing info related to SI/PI simulation? Could info unrelated to simulation be entered as comments for use by other tools?
Question 3: Is it time to drop the assumption that every pad has a package pin, to allow package descriptions using [External Circuit], SPICE, or other IBIS-supported syntax?
Question 4: If keywords/subparams must be added, what is the most "generic" approach to address as many I/O interfaces as possible? Where within the IBIS model/package structure would these keywords fit?

It has been fun to see IBIS philosophy being addressed.
:-)

Cheers,
Lynne

"IBIS training when you need it, where you need it."

Dr. Lynne Green
Green Streak Programs
http://www.greenstreakprograms.com
425-788-0412
lgreen22@mindspring.com<mailto:lgreen22@mindspring.com>

On 7/19/2012 1:14 PM, Mirmak, Michael wrote:
Would it be fair to say that most of the package solutions we have available today in IBIS or are discussing are oriented to post-layout system (PCB) analysis? In other words, doesn't the current IBIS format assume that one already has specific package models for specific pins, which will be used in simulations of those specific pins?

I ask because of an alternate usage model: the case where a generic model is available for an *interface* (group of pins) but no model for any specific pin is supplied.

If IBIS does not support this today or in any of the improvements under consideration, is this because post-layout support is considered the most common and critical usage model?

Here's a sample case, similar to that discussed in Tuesday's IBIS-ATM meeting:

- A 3-pair/6-line model interconnect model is available and applies to an interface (group of pins); corner variations may also be provided

- The specific model for an individual pin's package interconnect may *not* be available

- A range of lengths is available (minimum, maximum)

- The specific lengths associated with any one pin may *not* be available

- The package model will likely force all three pairs to use an identical length setting

For this situation, the format can't tie the model to specific pins, but only to a group of pins associated with an interface.

Can this be automated using today's syntax? What would be needed from an EDA perspective to automate this? Would any differentiation be needed between this approach and a true post-layout approach (specific pins and buffers associated with specific package lengths and electrical paths)?

The most likely way I would see to support this would be to create and release interface-specific model files, where the buffer+package structure isn't associated with specific pins and doesn't really represent the whole component (in other words, the above conditions would result in an IBIS file that only contains 6 pins, with "dummy" names). While straightforward, this seems to violate the realistic component-oriented approach of IBIS today.

Comments are welcome.

- MM

From: owner-ibis@eda.org<mailto:owner-ibis@eda.org> [mailto:owner-ibis@eda.org] On Behalf Of Ray Anderson
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 10:51 AM
To: ibis@eda.org<mailto:ibis@eda.org>
Cc: Ray Anderson
Subject: RE: [IBIS] IBIS-ISS Package Modeling Status/Overview

A couple comments from a device vendor's point of view.

I'd like to say that I concur with Arpad's stance that the IBIS spec shouldn't codify what form a package model takes, but should provide a well defined interface that allows the user to define any package model topology that ISS syntax allows.

By defining the Level 1 through Level 5 package complexities as has been suggested, it seems to me that the spec will be defining many of the specifics of model implementation that really are beyond the scope of the problem. As long as the specification provides a robust, yet flexible method to include a package model subcircuit of any arbitrary complexity in the simulation then the specification will have done its' job.

Various users will have different requirements and preferences as to what the package model needs to contain (s-parameters vs W-elements, vs RLCs), inclusion of power nets or not, the number of coupled nets, etc. .... As long as the interconnect protocol can support varying numbers of ports and perhaps provide the ability to pass parameters to the subcircuit model, the specific internal topology of the package model defined by the subcircuit need not be addressed in the specification as long as the details can be defined within the ISS syntax.

Regards,

-Ray

This email and any attachments are intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s) and contain(s) confidential information that may be proprietary, privileged or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, do not read, copy, or forward this email message or any attachments. Delete this email message and any attachments immediately.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org
|with the appropriate command message(s) in the body:
|
| help
| subscribe ibis <optional e-mail address, if different>
| subscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
| unsubscribe ibis <optional e-mail address, if different>
| unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different>
|
|or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org.
|
|IBIS reflector archives exist under:
|
| http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent
| http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent
| http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993
Received on Fri Jul 20 09:56:50 2012

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Fri Jul 20 2012 - 09:57:04 PDT