I agree with Tom that "NA" is a reserved word in the IBIS spec. and should be supported by the simulator. One question I have concerns using it in tables like the [GND Clamp] example seen below in this thread: Is it permissible to have NA at the end datapoints in such tables that have true data in them? By 'true data' I mean a table, like the Typ table, that must have datapoints as opposed to the Min and/or Max tables that can be all NA. Modifying the example [GND Clamp] table, is the following Typ table legal and should it be handled by interpolation by the simulator: - [GND Clamp] ... ... 0.1500 -1.3479pA -1.3981pA -1.5422pA 0.2000 -0.5872pA -0.6494pA -0.7990pA 0.2392 -0.4pA NA NA 0.2408 -0.3pA 0.0A NA 0.2500 -0.2pA NA -47.2574fA 0.2532 NA NA 0.0A 3.0000 NA 0.0A 0.0A Thanks! Tony -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org] On Behalf Of Tom Dagostino Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 2:02 AM To: Radovan.Vuletic@qimonda.com; lwang@iometh.com; arpad.muranyi@intel.com; ibis-users@server.eda.org Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Variety of Aproaches on IBIS Modeling on Differential I/O Buffers (with and without Pre-/De-Emphasis) NA is part of the IBIS specification. If the simulator does not recognize NA then the simulator does not comply with the IBIS specification. The user should complain to the simulator's vendor to get it fixed. The user can do an interpolation of the curve to fill in the NAs to make the model work. Tom Dagostino Teraspeed(R) Labs 13610 SW Harness Lane Beaverton, OR 97008 503-430-1065 tom@teraspeed.com www.teraspeed.com Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 401-284-1827 -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org] On Behalf Of Radovan.Vuletic@qimonda.com Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 7:09 AM To: lwang@iometh.com; arpad.muranyi@intel.com; ibis-users@server.eda.org Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Variety of Aproaches on IBIS Modeling on Differential I/O Buffers (with and without Pre-/De-Emphasis) Hi Lance, in this case we were discussing what is Verilog-A doing with "NA" (after extracting of IBIS model tables with Pearl script to look-up tables) - please see below. I agree for other IBIS simulators, but problem is that in Verilog-A you can't have NA in look-up tables - code won't be even compiled. Regards, Radovan ============================================================================ == Qimonda AG Chairman of the Supervisory Board/ Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Peter J. Fischl Management Board/ Vorstand: Kin Wah Loh (Chairman/ Vorsitzender), Dr. Michael Majerus, Thomas J. Seifert Register Court/ Registergericht: München HRB 152545, Seat/ Sitz: München ============================================================================ == -----Original Message----- From: Lance Wang [mailto:lwang@iometh.com] Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 3:54 PM To: Vuletic Radovan (QAG PD PDE MEM); arpad.muranyi@intel.com; ibis-users@server.eda.org Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Variety of Aproaches on IBIS Modeling on Differential I/O Buffers (with and without Pre-/De-Emphasis) Radovan, Almost all the IBIS simulators will interpolate/extrapolate for the NAs in the IBIS curves. It should not be any problem if you leave NAs in IBIS. Regards, Lance Wang IO Methodology Inc. 978-764-2298 lwang@iometh.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org] On Behalf Of Radovan.Vuletic@qimonda.com Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 2:56 AM To: arpad.muranyi@intel.com; ibis-users@server.eda.org Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Variety of Aproaches on IBIS Modeling on Differential I/O Buffers (with and without Pre-/De-Emphasis) Hi Arpad, many thanks on your comments! Just one thing about Q6 and "NA" (specially in power and ground clamps). You have right, Perl script could take care of it, but for example in this case: [GND Clamp] ... ... 0.1500 -1.3479pA -1.3981pA -1.5422pA 0.2000 -0.5872pA -0.6494pA -0.7990pA 0.2392 0.0A NA NA 0.2408 NA 0.0A NA 0.2500 NA NA -47.2574fA 0.2532 NA NA 0.0A 3.0000 0.0A 0.0A 0.0A I agree, all "NA" in typ column and last 2 "NA" in min column could be replaced by 0.0A (already during table generation, not with Pearl script), but first "NA" in min column and all "NA" in max column can't be replaced with 0.0A, but for example, with some linear interpolation. Problem is that above table is extracted with "s2ibis like" tool (I agree, not very perfect tool) that puts "NA" when rearranging clamp tables (to avoid double counting) and we would need to make people aware they in their clamp tables they shouldn't have any "NA" but either 0.0A or interpolated values. Meaning, people would really need to take care about it in their extracting scripts. Regards, Radovan ============================================================================ == Qimonda AG Chairman of the Supervisory Board/ Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Peter J. Fischl Management Board/ Vorstand: Kin Wah Loh (Chairman/ Vorsitzender), Dr. Michael Majerus, Thomas J. Seifert Register Court/ Registergericht: München HRB 152545, Seat/ Sitz: München ============================================================================ == -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org] On Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 10:00 PM To: ibis-users@server.eda.org Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Variety of Aproaches on IBIS Modeling on Differential I/O Buffers (with and without Pre-/De-Emphasis) Radovan, On your request (in a private mail) I am going attempt to answer your questions. Please find my responses between your lines preceded by "AM:". Sorry for the delay... Arpad ==================================================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org] On Behalf Of Radovan.Vuletic@qimonda.com Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 8:44 AM To: ibis-users@server.eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users] Variety of Aproaches on IBIS Modeling on Differential I/O Buffers (with and without Pre-/De-Emphasis) Hi experts, for long time I was hoping that I will never have to do it, but now, with DDR4 (or NMT) knocking on the door it is finally on my schedule - IBIS models for differential I/O buffers. AM: Welcome to the club... :-) I have to say that I have read all possible documents (or at least I think so) available on Internet (IBIS Summits, Macro Modeling Subcommittee, etc..), I have contacted a few people to discuss what they have actually done, I have done the "homework" by experimenting with *-AMS Macro Library (one year later, but still), and so I would like here to share with you one summary on possibilities to create either IBIS models for differential buffers (w/ or w/o pre-/de-emphasis) or to create setups for simulation of these buffer. Also, in this my "analysis", I would have some questions, so if somebody knows the answers, please just write me. AM: Thanks for doing your homework, you seem to have done a good job! Disclaimer: I am perfectly aware that there is a possibility that I have, perhaps, wrote something wrong or stupid (I apologize in advance), but I am ready to take this risk, since I think that one of the purposes of this forum is discussing all possible (IBIS related) topics. Also, if I have forgotten to mention some work or author that is not done on purpose, but simply because of my limited capabilities. Main question: I know that it is impossible to get one general answer on this (but still, therefore I have done a whole analysis): What is mainstream solution/method - what is the setup that are most customers looking for? I am asking this simply, because I wouldn't like to support every possible existing setup, but just to concentrate on one or two. AM: Can't answer this question, because I am not working on DDR simulations directly. In this summary, I have tried to list all kind of models/methods, starting with (according to me) most simple and than slowly increasing complexity - also I would like to distinguish between models of Differential buffers without Pre/De-emphasis and models of Differential buffers with Pre/De-emphasis. Differential Buffers w/o Pre/De-emphasis 1. "Traditional" IBIS modeling - treats differential buffers as two independent [Model]s driven by a stimulus and its complement Method described (for example) by: - http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/summits/oct02/muranyi.pdf - http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/summits/oct03/muranyi.pdf Advantages: - simple setup and usage Disadvantages: - not describing the coupling effects between pads - causes DC shifts in the signal level AM: This cannot be stated in general, because there are cases when this approach works perfectly fine. See my presentation at: http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/summits/feb04a/muranyi1.pdf 2. Method described by - A. Tambone (Semiconductor Business News 2000) - no link found - http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/summits/mar01/hegazy.pdf.Z - http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/summits/jun02/burns.pdf - http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/summits/mar03/sporrer.pdf Advantages: - relatively "smooth" and easy flow for understanding of IBIS extraction; - relatively easy to adapt existing s2ibis2 or s2ibis3 flow; Disadvantages: - LVDS IBIS models are accurate only when same VDDQ model was generated with is used - Changing VDDQ leads to very inaccurate results; - LVDS IBIS models assume constant Vcm - Must generate multiple models for different values of vcm to obtain consistent accuracy driving different loads and topologies; - Device asymmetry will affect accuracy of model - Model generated for both pads assumes perfect driver symmetry - Etch lengths of nets in differential pair matched; 3. Improved IBIS modeling approach (using only v3.2 keywords) Method described by: - http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/summits/oct02/muranyi.pdf - http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/summits/oct03/muranyi.pdf - http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/cookbook/cookbook-v4.pdf Advantages: - describes DC currents of a differential buffer completely and accurately - DC levels of the signals are correct under all loading conditions Disadvantages: - pretty complicated procedure for extraction of model (at least for me) - relatively big effort needed to automate the procedure - need to make some guesses for picking up the 'best" value for C_comp AM: While it is true that this is more complicated, but once you have your scripts written it should be almost just a "pushbutton" solution. Making regular IV and Vt curves seemed just as hard before the various SPICE-to-IBIS tools came along... AM: Also, picking the best C_comp value is not a specific problem for differential buffers or the above technique, it is a general problem for any buffer model, even regular single ended buffers... Questions: Q1: on Page 38 and Page 39, in section "4.6.3 Separating the On-die Termination I-V Tables" of IBIS Modeling Cookbook (IBIS Open Forum) - above mentioned http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/cookbook/cookbook-v4.pdf -is written: "The procedure for this is similar to the corresponding subtraction procedure used for single-ended drivers. The I-V characteristics of the driver must be obtained twice, once in the driving mode and once in the 3-stated (high impedance) mode, and the 3-stated I-V table data must be substracted from the driving I-V table data. The only added complexity in this procedure for differential drivers is that the subtraction is done after the common mode I-V tables have been extracted from the raw I-V surface data." On what is exactly meant by "The only added complexity in this procedure for differential drivers is that the subtraction is done after the common mode I-V tables have been extracted from the raw I-V surface data." . What is the difference comparing to procedures that are done with s2ibis2 or s2ibis3, since there is well done substracting of 3-stated I-V tables from driving I-V tables? AM: The traditional subtraction in the IBIS world refers to subtracting the clamp IV curves from the driving IV curves, so that the pullup and pulldown tables would contain only the drive currents. The addition subtraction described in the quoted text refers to separating the pad-to-pad, differential current from the total pad current, so that the pullup and pulldown tables would not include any differential currents (nor should they include any clamping currents, but that is taken care of doing the two measurements, driven and 3-stated). So the added complexity comes from needing to separate the differential current from the total current that is measured at the pad. Q2: is there some IBIS file available that is created with exactly this procedure? Can somebody send me such file? AM: I did generate a few IBIS files for differential buffers this way, but not too many, and honestly I don't know where they are, or whether they are available publicly... Q3: are there any public available tools (something like s2ibis2 or s2ibis3) that would support extraction of IBIS models described with this model? (Hereby I don't mean on HSpice, Matlab and Pearl scripts provided in http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/summits/oct03/muranyi.pdf) AM: Not that I know of. However, if this technique seems to be widely used, I am sure we could talk with the NCU people and ask them to code it up in the s2ibis tool. Differential Buffers w/ Pre/De-emphasis 1. "Traditional" IBIS modeling - Model the building blocks of the buffer with independent [Model]s and tell the user to wire them up treats differential buffers as four independent [Model]s (2 Main, 2 boosts) driven by a stimulus and its complement Disadvantage: - This approach was used initially for many models but required manual editing of files and/or simulation schematics 2. [Driver Shedule] Method for Pre-emphasis Buffer modeling http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/summits/jun01/hegazy.pdf - (basically describes 2 methods: V-I Through Transient simulation and [Driver Shedule]) http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/summits/jun01/reid.pdf Advantage (of V-I Through Transient simulation method): - relatively simple method Disadvantage (of V-I Through Transient simulation method): - Non-monotonic wave forms (For some EDA tools) - Single clock frequency operation (Changing the frequency needs remodeling) Advantage (of [Driver Schedule] Method): - Changing the frequency doesn't need remodeling - Eliminates the need for connecting two separate [Model]s by hand in the - Eliminates the need for manually connecting [Model]s to make a complete buffer schematics, one for the Main and one for the Boost portion of the buffer - Fewer transistor level (SPICE) models will need to be released to customers - Uses no more than IBIS v3.2 syntax - Useful for tools not supporting the *-AMS extensions of IBIS - Extends the life of legacy IBIS before requiring the IBIS v4.1 language extensions - Reasonably good correlation with transistor level model Disadvantage (of [Driver Schedule] Method): - Changing the frequency need changing of Rise_on, Rise_off, Fall_on and Fall_off times. Since legacy IBIS does not have provisions for clocked buffers, this model doesn't have a clock input, consequently the delay parameter is "hard coded" and will need to be changed manually in the IBIS file for every clock frequency and simulation corner - The [Driver Schedule] delay parameters do not have typ., min., max. corners Obtaining separate [Model] data for the Main and Boost buffers may still require the editing of the SPICE netlist - There are a few questions around proper handling of C_comp 3. IBIS modeling using v4.1 and v4.2 features (e.g. [External Circuit]) Advantage: - flexibility (I guess so) Disadvantage: - not all EDA tools support all features - relatively complicated setup Question: Q4: - can somebody send me an example of IBIS model that is using v4.1 and v4.2 features for describing Differential Buffers with Pre-/De-emphasis? 4. *-AMS Buffer Models Using IBIS v3.2 Data (although it can be applied on Differential Buffers w/o Pre/De-emphasis as well) Method described by (and many others): http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/summits/jun03a/muranyi1.pdf http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/summits/jun03b/muranyi1.pdf http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/summits/apr04/muranyi.pdf http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/summits/oct06a/wang.pdf http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/summits/mar06/muranyi2.pdf AM: I would not recommend any of these methods in light of a better solution described in my presentation: http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/summits/mar05/muranyi.pdf Advantage: - according to my opinion absolutely the most "coolest" method (as mentioned on the beginning, I have done the homework and really experimented with Macro Model Library created by Arpad & Co. - please see my questions and comments bellow) for SI simulation - very flexible method, gives you possibilities to do literally whatever you want (the only limitation are your EDA tools - in my case HSpice 2006.09 and it's Verilog-A interface) AM: Please use the latest version whenever possible, since Synopsys is fixing bugs all the time and add new features for more complete IBIS support. Disadvantage: - "where" is IBIS here? (not really a disadvantage, but more like a question) AM: IBIS is more like wrapper in this case, contains the pin list, package info, and can pass parameters into the *-AMS models, which can still be useful. - need to create IBIS models first and then to extract data in proper format (later to be read-out by Verilog-A) - relatively high effort to create a proper setup and flow - one needs to know (or at least understand) all :IBIS, HSpice and *-AMS - (at least in this case that wasn't my problem :-))) AM: This is the model maker's problem. Model users do not have to know that much... Questions: Q5: is there a possibility to make HSpice more verbose when debugging it's Verilog-A interface? AM: Ask Synopsys about that... In sum I spent around half of the day just on debugging why Verilog-A "won't" compile Verilog code when including extracted IBIS data. AM: Ask Synopsys about that... Btw., please find in the attachment slightly changed Perl script (file name: "ibis2ams.pl") with which one can REALLY do something used in conjunction with for example http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/macromodel_wip/template_lib/Verilog-A_PreDe - - original script that is on http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/macromodel_wip/tools/IBIS-to-AMS_conversion _tool.zip can't be since original script generates array "Ipu_data", and pre/de-emphasis template (Verilog-A code) requires array named "I_pu" (and other similar discrepancies). User just needs to change in the first row the path to his/her Perl executable. If IBIS model is generated with s2ibis2 user still needs to delete "S" (from pS) from generated data file. AM: To be honest, the Macro Modeling Library effort is not 100% finished. I am aware of the discrepancy you mention in the Perl script, and I thought we fixed it, but it may not have been uploaded to the web site yet. There are some other minor things that we need to fix and polish up in the library, such as the comments describing the various functions, etc... It kind of got pushed on the side when we started to work on the algorithmic modeling proposal in the IBIS-ATM subcommittee. So far I didn't get any requests about the Macro Modeling Library, and it seemed that it was not being used by anyone. If there is a need, we can certainly put it on a higher priority, just let me know. Q6: practical question - it seems that Verilog-A doesn't support "NA" in input array (e.g. "NA" in power or ground clamp data), although it is allowed in IBIS. Is there intention to change this in Verilog-A standard? Or at least how to handle "NA' in future? AM: You observation is correct. The Verilog-AMS (and also the VHDL-AMS) workgroup are currently discussing proposals to improve the $table_model keyword (and add a similar one to VHDL-AMS). Someone would have to bring this request to the workgroups. Although I wonder, since we are generating these tables with Perl scripts, is there a real need for this? The Perl script could very well take care of it. Q7: is it fair to say that calculation procedure (calculating/compensating of the I, V and C) used and described in "IBIS_macro_library.va" in module "IBIS_IO" is expected to be used by all other simulators - I mean, is it "The Algorithm" (with some minor changes and vendor specialties) that every tool that uses IBIS models should follow? AM: As far as I know, all simulator vendors who have IBIS support have implemented this "C_comp compensation" algorithm. The output waveform at the pad of an IBIS model must be the same as the Vt curve in that model, regardless of what the C_comp value is. This couldn't be done without the compensation algorithm. Many thanks to those that have read this mail until here, I am hoping on some your feedback! Best regards / Mit freundlichen Gru?en / S postovanjem Radovan Vuletic Qimonda AG QAG PD PDE MEM MUC/10.2.236 AP 3 Am Campeon 1-12 D-85579 Neuebiberg Phone: +49 (0)89 60088 1233 Fax (PC): +49 (0)89 60088 45 5305 E-mail: radovan.vuletic@qimonda.com <<ibis2ams.pl>> -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis <optional e-mail address, if different> | subscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different> | unsubscribe ibis <optional e-mail address, if different> | unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different> | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis <optional e-mail address, if different> | subscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different> | unsubscribe ibis <optional e-mail address, if different> | unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different> | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis <optional e-mail address, if different> | subscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different> | unsubscribe ibis <optional e-mail address, if different> | unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different> | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis <optional e-mail address, if different> | subscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different> | unsubscribe ibis <optional e-mail address, if different> | unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different> | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis <optional e-mail address, if different> | subscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different> | unsubscribe ibis <optional e-mail address, if different> | unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail address, if different> | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993Received on Sat Jun 2 10:58:27 2007
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