Subject: Minutes, IBIS Teleconference Meeting 7/20
From: Peters, Stephen (stephen.peters@intel.com)
Date: Tue Jul 24 2001 - 12:43:34 PDT
DATE: 7/24/01
SUBJECT: 7/20/01 EIA IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes
VOTING MEMBERS AND 2001 PARTICIPANTS LIST:
3Com (& CommWorks) Roy Leventhal*
Ansoft Corporation (Eric Bracken)
Apple Computer John Figueroa
Applied Simulation Technology [Raj Raghuram], Norio Matsui, Fred Balistreri
Avanti (Chen Hongyu)
Cadence Design [Ian Dodd], Patrick Dos Santos, Heiko Dudek
Lynne Green, Lance Wang
Cisco Systems Syed Huq, Lungfu Chen
EMC Corporation Brian Arsenault, Jinhua Chen
Fairchild Semiconductor Adam Tambone
Huawei Technologies Rachild Chen
IBM Michael Cohen, Greg Edlund*, Wes Martin,
Yeon-Chang Hahm, Bill DeVey, Pravin Patel*
Innoveda (& HyperLynx) Guy de Burgh, John Angulo*, Cary Mandel,
Matthew Flora, Steve Kaufer
Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Dave Lorang,
Michael Mirmak, Qinglun Chen, Will Hobbs,
Wei-hsing Huang
LSI Logic Larry Barnes
Mentor Graphics Bob Ross*, Tom Dagostino, Chris Reid,
Mike Donnelly, Hazem Hegazy, Tony Dunbar,
Griff Derryberry, Dan Lake, Sherif Hammad,
Mohammed Korany, Weston Beal, Chris Swaim,
Ali Samii, Eric Ronger, Karine Loudet,
Daisaku Shiga, Kenji Kushima
Micron Technology Randy Wolff*, Yong Phan*
Mitsubishi Pat Hefferan
Molex Incorporated Gus Panella, Brian O'Malley
National Semiconductor Milt Schwartz
North East Systems Associates Edward Sayre
Philips Semiconductor Zack Ciccone, Rob Mataheroe
Quantic EMC (Mike Ventham)
Signal Integrity Software Douglas Burns, Barry Katz, Walter Katz
SiQual Scott McMorrow, Rob Hinz, Bernard Voss,
Chris Brewster
Texas Instruments Thomas Fisher, Stephen Nolan, Ramzi Ammar,
Jean Claude Perrin, Moshiul Haque
Time Domain Analysis Systems Dima Smolyansky, Steve Corey
Tyco Electronics (Russell Moser)
Via Technologies (Weber Chuang)
Zuken (& Incases) John Berrie, Ralf Bruening
OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 2001:
Actel Corporation Silvia Montoya
Acuson Kim Helliwell
AMCC Jeff Smith
ASIS Ltd David Wright
Brocade Communications Robert Badal
BMW Friedrich Hasinger
Cereva Networks Bob Haller
Compaq [Peter LaFlamme], Ron Bellomio, Quang Dam,
Bill Ham
Cypress (Rajesh Manapat)
EADS Airbus Industry Claude Huet
(Aerospatiale)
EFM Ekkehard Miersch, Horle Raines
EIA Cecilia Fleming
Ericsson Radio Systems Anders Ekholm
FCI Sercu Stefaan
Foundary Networks Bertram Chan
Framatom Conectors Danny Morlion
Fraunhofer Institute Mariusz Faferko, Peter Kralicek
Reliability and
Integration
Fujitsu Ltd Tadashi Arai, Takeshi Murakami
Heidelberger Druchmaschinen AG Wolfgang Kleinfeldt
Hyundai Electronics Jongho Kang
Idaho State University Al Davis
Infineon Technologies Christian Sporrer
Intrinsix Corporation Steven Chin
Motorola (Rick Kingen)
National Institute of Applied Etienne Sicard
Science (INSA)
Nokia Tapani von Ravner, Mika Castren,
Janne Uusitalo
Nortel Networks Calvin Trowell
Oak Technology Darmin Jin
Plexus Technology Group Joseph Socha
Siemens (& Automotive) AG Bernhard Unger, Helmut Katzier, Katja Koller,
Wolfram Meyer, Eckhard Lenski, Gerald
Bannert,
Burkhard Muller, Christian Marot,
Manfred Maurer, Amir Motamedi,
Hans Pichlmaier
Sigrity Raj Raghuram*
Sintecs Hans Klos
STMicroelectronics Peter Hirt, Fabrice Boissieres
Sun Adrian Udenze
Toshiba Corp. Hirokaza Kato, Yuichi Koga, Toshio Sudo
Xilinx Susan Wu
In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal
members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses.
Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets.
Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are
as
follows:
Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode
August 10 (877) 299-1938 none 6350164
August 31 (916) 356-2663 2 4779396
Thursday, September 13, 2001 IBIS Summit Meeting, No Phone Bridge
All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas
out
7 days before each Open Forum, and meeting minutes out within 7 days after.
When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by
Stephen
Peters and give the reservation number and passcode.
NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.
-------------------------------- MINUTES
-------------------------------------
INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM
Raj Raghuram, who has been involved for years with IBIS as a model developer
and as a tool developer joined Sigrity. Sigrity is involved with power and
signal integrity simulations and uses IBIS models. Raj stated that Sigrity
plans to become an EIA IBIS Open Forum member.
MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT
Stephen Peters reported about 28-29 members (down from 30) since there were
some payment issues. These are being resolved. Bob Ross reported there are
three potential members that are being processed (including Sigrity). So we
expect about 32 members, ahead of the 30 member target from which our budget
is based.
REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S
The June 01, 2001 IBIS Minutes were approved without change.
Bob Ross submitted a spelling correction for Ralf Bruening of Zuken in the
participants list for the June 21, 2001 IBIS Summit Meeting minutes. The
Minutes were approved with this change. Bob stated that the uploaded
minutes
have been corrected.
The ARs will be discussed during the meeting.
MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS
Stephen Peters stated that several officers have been on vacation, but are
now
returning. Guy de Burgh will return after July 27, 2001.
PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES
Stephen Peters reported that Syed Huq made more Roster updates, did an FAQ
update (for ibischk3 source code license purchases), uploaded some IBIS
Summit
presentations, and updated the Upcoming Events link.
NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE
Stephen Peters stated that Roy Leventhal provided more updates as of 6/26/01
on the IBIS Models link.
Bob Ross reported that Mindspeed Technologies (a Conexant Business) has IBIS
Models under (URL split into two lines to avoid mailer truncation):
http://web2.mindspeed.com/default.sph/SaServletEngine.class/Web/products/
documents.jsp?doc_type=27
OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES
None.
INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS
- IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 3.2) - No report. Bob Ross stated that the
document is probably still in prepublication status.
- pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits
(IMIC) - Bob Ross still cannot find the new link to the IMIC document.
- IEC 62014-3 (ICEM) Integrated Circuit Electromagnetic Model Proposal
(formerly, IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation) - Bob Ross stated that
Etienne Sicard plans to present work at the September 13, 2001 IBIS Summit
meeting. This will be discussed later in the meeting.
- JEDEC JC-16 - Modeling and Testing - No report.
- T10, Project 1414-DT - SCSI Signal Modeling (a Technical Committee of the
National Committee for Information Technology (NCITS)) - No report.
DESIGN AUTOMATION CONFERENCE 2001 IBIS SUMMIT MEETING FEEDBACK
Stephen Peters enjoyed the meeting. However, he felt that we did not have
as
many questions and interactions as in some other meetings and is looking for
suggestions for more interactions. He expected more questions on IBIS-X.
Arpad Muranyi reported that some people discussed things after the meeting,
but he did not think there was an IBIS-X parser demonstration offered by Al
Davis. Several people had to catch plane connections after the meeting.
Bob Ross stated that we had more presentations than expected and had to
limit
questions to keep the meeting going. We did not have copies of all slides
available at the meeting. The presentations are all now uploaded under:
http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/summits/jun01/
PCB CONFERENCE EAST 2001 IBIS SUMMIT MEETING PLANS
Bob Ross reported that an IBIS Summit Meeting is planned all day on
Thursday,
September 13, 2001 in Worcester, Massachusetts at the Crowne Plaza Hotel
near
the PCB Conference East 2001 show. The meeting follows on the next day the
trade show portion of the show. The Upcoming events link of the IBIS Home
page already contains the sign-up information and hotel information. A free
lunch and refreshments are included.
Kathy Breda of NESA has been handling the arrangements and signups. She
will
also coordinate making copies of presentations for the meeting. Bob stated
that we need to address the funding issue. In the past the EDA vendors have
shared the meeting expenses.
So far Bob expects these presentations (titles may change):
"Modeling the Radiated Emission of Micro-controllers", Etienne Sicard,
National Institute of Applied Science (INSA) in France
"A Proposal for s2ibis3", Michael Steer, North Carolina State University
Plus IBIS Version 4.0, IBIS-X and IBIS Connector Specification Progress
Bob indicated that the IBIS Futures Working Group had discussed
demonstrating
the IBIS-X parser at the Summit meeting. This follows up on Stephen Peters
comment to make the meeting have more interactive and promote more questions
and discussions.
Bob plans that the first announcement will be sent next week.
NORTH CAROLINA STATE UNIVERSITY S2IBIS3 PROJECT
Stephen Peters reported that he and Michael Steer of North Carolina State
University (NCSU) have made recent contact. NCSU is working on a cell
design
project under a DARPA contract and is now interested in using IBIS. Michael
is interested in developing s2ibis3 as part of this research. His team
would
be interested in using the ibischk3 as a basis, but Stephen stated that NCSU
would have to pay for the source code. NCSU will probably develop their
own parser independently.
Bob Ross mentioned that NCSU would release s2ibis3 source code and
executables
under a GPL (GNU public license). Michael Steer is scheduled to discuss the
project at the September 13, 2001 IBIS Summit Meeting.
IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION
John Angulo sent out a model from STMicroelectronics for review. John also
has two other models that are being processed prior to being distributed.
John stated that he cannot continue heading the IBIS Model Review Committee
because of work commitments. He suggested several other people. Stephen
Peters will work offline to find a replacement.
MAJORDOMO AND SPAM MAIL UPDATE
Stephen Peters reported that there seems to be more spam messages on the
IBIS
reflectors. Possibly someone is harvesting names off the mailing list
(which
is protected) or off of e-mail correspondence. One solution is to control
the
messages from a list server such as Majordomo. Using Majordomo, only folks
that
have subscribed and have known valid e-mail addresses could post to the IBIS
reflectors, thus cutting down on SPAM to the list.
John Angulo is still working with the eda.org systems administrators on
using
Majordomo. John would want to set up a test reflector before we actually
make the change. There might be more restrictive access. John also noted
that some of the spam messages have been sent to the ibis-request and
ibis-info addresses.
CONNECTOR PROPOSAL REVIEW
The Working Group has been meet on June 12, July 3, and July 10, 2001. The
attendance was down because of vacations. Stephen Peters summarized that
work
is continuing on reviewing the Connector Specification to align it with the
IBIS document and also with some IBIS-X conventions. This work is
proceeding
more slowly than expected.
Some recent topics include uncoupled and coupled lines, the transmission
line
syntax and frequency dependent matrices.
Bob Ross stated that more people are now involved. Some earlier decisions
are
subject to review. The original choices included focusing on connector only
issues versus trying to make this a combined package/connector model
document,
and postponing lossy matrices. Arpad Muranyi stated that it might not be
difficult to put in frequency dependent matrices. Bob agreed and stated
that
the earlier consensus continues to implement losses based on matrices as a
function of frequency. This is a superset of just assuming skin effect and
conductance matrix relationships.
Stephen stated that he preferred using the matrix approach as implemented in
the document and wanted to proceed in a rapid manner to get the Connector
Specification approved by the end of the year. It has been under
development
for several years.
The next meeting is scheduled on July 24, 2001, and they should continue on
a
weekly basis.
IBIS FUTURES (IBIS-X, API, BIRDxx)
Stephen Peters summarized the progress based on meetings on June 12, July 3,
10 and 17, 2001. The discussions included the basic elements, some
transmission line syntax (similar to the Connector Specification), LRC
matrix issues and the Laplace element. John Angulo added that the syntax
for
controlled sources was discussed at the last meeting.
Stephen stated that Scott McMorrow has issued comments on the Connector
Specification and now is providing good comments on the IBIS futures
documents.
Work is continuing and the next meeting is scheduled for July 24, 2001.
These
should continue on a weekly basis.
BIRD70.3 - GOLDEN WAVEFORMS
Greg Edlund indicated that he put out several messages on the IBIS reflector
in response to comments made at previous meetings. He got one positive
comment back.
Bob Ross stated that vacations and other IBIS activities prevented him from
looking at BIRD70.3 and Greg's comments until now. He summarized his
response
as follows:
He agrees with Issue 1 that a new [Test Data] subparameter
Driver_model_inv
should be added to support unsymmetrical differential drivers.
He suggests that [Test Load] should add the subparamater
Receiver_model_inv
for completeness and to support unsymmetrical receivers with internal
terminations.
Bob noted that the [Test Load] subparameter Test_load_type was incorrectly
entered as "Test_data_type" in some portions of BIRD70.3.
Bob agreed with Greg's proposed Issue 2 restriction that only these
combinations of Test_data_type and Test_load_type would be supported:
Single_ended, Single_ended
Differential, Differential
While the combination Differential, Single_ended is also possible, it is
not necessary since the Single_ended test load can be created with default
large values of Rdiff*. The rules need to be stated for the Single_ended
case how to interpret the differential golden waveforms [Diff ...] and the
Rdiff* and *_inv parameters. Bob proposed that should be ignored. The
parser probably would accept the model, but issue an Warning message.
Finally the single_ended golden waveforms given for Test_data_type
Differential should be for the non-inverting side of the net when *-inv
models are used. The inverting golden waveform data can be obtained by a
separate test, but with the inverting and non-inverting models
interchanged.
If the differential network is symmetrical, this is not an issue since the
inverting and non-inverting models are the same.
Bob plans to respond on the reflector to Greg's e-mail to capture these
points. Greg should review this and issue BIRD70.4 in time for a vote at
the
next IBIS Meeting.
AR - Bob Ross respond to Greg Edlunds comments. Greg issue BIRD70.4 by July
27, 2001 so that it can be presented for a vote at the next IBIS Meeting.
BIRD71 - TIMING TEST LOADS IN [Model Spec] TO SUPPORT PCI & PCI-X
Stephen Peters stated that there have not been any reflector comments on
BIRD71. BIRD71 completes the list of [Model Spec] subparameters in a manner
that supports PCI and PCI-X specifications. There have been some concerns
on
how EDA tools should use the new information.
Bob Ross stated that he had questions because some of the new specification
subparameters interacted with the model data itself. The loads, for example
may be different for the min and max corners. This does not relate to how
a physical part is specified or measured since the measurement is set up
independent of the electrical characteristics of the component. So there
may
be some ambiguity on how EDA tools are to process the new subparameters.
One suggestion is that the new subparameters is related to the actual model
corners and are used to set up best and worst cases. Bob had suggested that
there might be some discussion about on this in BIRD71. He did not have
specific suggestions. Bob favors adding the subparameters per BIRD71 and
letting the EDA tools decide how to process the new information. He will
communicate any new ideas, if any, by next week.
Stephen proposed that BIRD71 be scheduled for a vote at the next meeting.
OTHER PENDING BIRDS
Stephen Peters stated that he wanted IBIS Version 4.0 to be finished soon
and
voted by the end of the year. Votes are planned for BIRD70.4 and BIRD71.
All
other pending BIRDs need to be issued or deferred until IBIS-X.
Bob stated that the SSO improvement proposal is pending, but might be
deferred
to IBIS-X where structural interactions could be programmed. This
improvement
may not work in all cases and may open up some technical issues. A fallback
submodel BIRD is needed for some existing technologies needs to be generated
if it is to be considered. Bob also stated that a clarification BIRD for
Series Switch models is being developed by Tom Dagostino (following up on
the
Ad Hoc presentation at the June 21, 2001 IBIS Summit Meeting). This pending
BIRD will make the discussion more general, but will not propose any syntax
change.
IBISCHK3 BUG TRACKING
- BUG57 Non-Mononic Table Causes Waveform Endpoint Test to Fail
Bob Ross introduced BUG57 by pointing out that if the [Pulldown] and/or
the [Pullup] table contains non-monotonic data in the clamping regions,
and
there are no [Gnd Clamp] or [Power Clamp] tables, ibischk3 gives an
incorrect Error message.
The non-monotonic data itself causes ibischk3 to calculate the wrong
endpoint values because the algorithm probably has numerical difficulties.
It probably starts its convergence calculation at one end of the table
rather than from the middle and gets numerically confused with the
non-monotonic data.
Even though the model is non-monotonic, it may represent real data. Some
EDA tools will correctly process the model. However, the recently
implemented Waveform endpoint tests now report an Error instead of a
Warning, preventing the model to be processed in systems that uses
ibischk3
for input model parsing.
Bob suggested classifying BUG57 as Annoying, Low, and Open.
The problem is how to resolve BUG57. The choices are (1) fix the test,
(2)
change the Error back to a Warning, or (3) ignore this problem and force
the
user to modify the IBIS file.
Bob suggested that we work on (1) as a low priority activity. If the fix
is
too difficult, then we might consider (3). No one wanted (2). Stephen
Peters suggested that a note could be added to the Warning or Error
message
to alert the user of a possible reason for the Error Message so that the
user could modify the model. Bob suggested that because this is a low
priority bug, it should be investigated after all the other open bugs are
fixed. Then we can decide how to proceed.
END OF MEETING TOPIC
Roy Leventhal stated that he talked about signal integrity and IBIS at a
recent IPC Design Learning Symposium meeting. He will track their activity.
NEXT MEETING:
The next teleconference meeting will be on Friday, August 10, 2001, from
8:00 AM to 10:00 AM. BIRD70.4 and BIRD71 are scheduled for a vote.
============================================================================
==
NOTES
IBIS CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-1831
stephen.peters@intel.com
Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation
M/S JF4-215
2111 NE 25th Ave.
Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961
VICE CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897
bob_ross@mentor.com
Modeling Engineer, Mentor Graphics
8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070
SECRETARY: Guy de Burgh (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
gdeburgh@innoveda.com
Senior Manager, Innoveda
1369 Del Norte Rd.
Camarillo, CA 93010-8437
LIBRARIAN: Roy Leventhal (837) 797-2152, Fax: (847) 222-2799
roy_leventhal@3com.com
Senior Engineer, CommWorks Corp. (a wholly owned 3Com
subsidiary)
1800 W. Central Rd.
Mt. Prospect, IL 60056-2293
WEBMASTER: Syed Huq (408) 525-3399, Fax: (408) 526-5504
shuq@cisco.com
Manager, Hardware Engineering, Cisco Systems
170 West Tasman Drive
San Jose, CA 95134-1706
POSTMASTER: John Angulo (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008
jangulo@innoveda.com
Development Engineer, Innoveda
14715 N.E. 95th Street, Suite 200
Redmond, WA 98052
This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA
Manual of Organization and Procedure.
The following e-mail addresses are used:
ibis-request@eda.org
To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector
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To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions
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ibischk-bug@eda.org
To report ibischk2/3 parser bugs. The Bug Report Form Resides on
eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported
bugs.
To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms
which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt,
/pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, &
/pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt
respectively.
Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual
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Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous
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============================================================================
==
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b28 : Tue Jul 24 2001 - 12:45:47 PDT