From owner-ibis Thu Jul 3 10:58:34 1997 Received: from jester.ti.com (jester.ti.com [192.94.94.1]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA03352 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from happy.memh.ti.com ([158.218.36.100]) by jester.ti.com (8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA03962 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:56:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from r2d2.memh.ti.com by happy.memh.ti.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA170172613; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:56:53 -0500 Received: from r2d2 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by r2d2.memh.ti.com with SMTP (8.7.1/8.7.1) id MAA17679 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:56:33 -0500 (CDT) Sender: vchang@memh.ti.com Message-Id: <33BBE7D1.54E4@memh.ti.com> Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 12:56:33 -0500 From: Vincent Chang X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; U; HP-UX B.10.20 9000/780) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: ibis@vhdl.org Subject: The voltage range Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I have a question on the range of the voltage for Power and Gnd clamps. The question is why do we need such wide range. Is it not true that on an actual PCB, even if the voltage at any pin tends to go higher than Vcc (due to L-C effects etc.), the clamping diodes will allow it to go only till Vcc+Vf, where Vf is the forward voltage of the clamping diode? Basically that's what the diodes are for. What is going to happy if we do provide that wide range of data? Is it going to fail on QC check? -- Best Regards, Vincent Chang ======================================================================= * Vincent Chang TI MSG ID: hui8 * * Design Automation mailto:vchang@memh.ti.com * * Memory Products Design http://www.memh.ti.com/~mcad * * Texas Instruments Inc. MS 657 Phone: (281) 274-3167 * * PO Box 1443, Houston, TX 77251 Fax: (281) 274-2067 * ======================================================================= From owner-ibis Thu Jul 3 12:17:27 1997 Received: from fw.icx.com (root@fw.icx.com [205.238.6.33]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id MAA04759 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by fw.icx.com (Smail-3.2.0.92 1997-Feb-9 #4) id ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by chane.icx.com (Smail-3.2.0.92 1997-Feb-9 #5) id ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by hpc110_3.icx.com via sendmail with stdio id for ibis@vhdl.org; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:16:22 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2.0.92 1997-Feb-9 #4 built 1997-Jun-4) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:16:22 -0700 (PDT) From: scottmc@icx.com (Scott McMorrow) To: ibis@vhdl.org Subject: Re: The voltage range Vincent, A diode has a V/I curve that characterizes the clamping characteristic of that device. Discrete diodes tend to have extramely strong clamping characteristics, and so appear to have one particular Vf. However, a real diode actually has a finite resistance. That resistance constitutes what the V/I curve of the device will look like after the diode has reached its Vf clamping voltage. Most CMOS clamp diodes are actually ESD structures on the die, and are designed to have fairly large losses. As a result, the V/I curve should be extended in IBIS modeling to account for the large real resistance of the device, and the imperfect clamping that will occur as a result. regards, --scott Scott McMorrow SiQual/Stramond > Hi all, > I have a question on the range of the voltage for Power and > Gnd clamps. The question is why do we need such wide range. > Is it not true that on an actual PCB, even if the voltage > at any pin tends to go higher than Vcc (due to L-C > effects etc.), the clamping diodes will allow it to go only > till Vcc+Vf, where Vf is the forward voltage of the clamping > diode? Basically that's what the diodes are for. > What is going to happy if we do provide that wide range of > data? Is it going to fail on QC check? > -- > Best Regards, > Vincent Chang > From owner-ibis Thu Jul 3 14:01:22 1997 Received: from jester.ti.com (jester.ti.com [192.94.94.1]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA06597 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from happy.memh.ti.com ([158.218.36.100]) by jester.ti.com (8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA06654 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:59:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from r2d2.memh.ti.com by happy.memh.ti.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA184493590; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:59:50 -0500 Received: from r2d2 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by r2d2.memh.ti.com with SMTP (8.7.1/8.7.1) id PAA19634 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:59:30 -0500 (CDT) Sender: vchang@memh.ti.com Message-Id: <33BC12B1.755D@memh.ti.com> Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 15:59:29 -0500 From: Vincent Chang X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; U; HP-UX B.10.20 9000/780) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: ibis@vhdl.org Subject: the range of the voltage. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Sorry, I did not make myself very clearly in the last message. Let's try again. The first question is Why should we do simulation from -Vcc to 2Vcc if we have diodes for clamping the output to Vcc and Gnd ? Is it not true that on an actual PCB, even if the voltage at any pin tends to go higher than Vcc (due to L-C effects etc.), the clamping diodes will allow it to go only till Vcc+Vf, where Vf is the forward voltage of the clamping diode? Basically that's what the diodes are for. The second question is, Can I use the voltage range from -Vcc to 1/2Vcc for Gnd Clamp? Is QC check going to fail on that voltage range? -- Best Regards, Vincent Chang ======================================================================= * Vincent Chang TI MSG ID: hui8 * * Design Automation mailto:vchang@memh.ti.com * * Memory Products Design http://www.memh.ti.com/~mcad * * Texas Instruments Inc. MS 657 Phone: (281) 274-3167 * * PO Box 1443, Houston, TX 77251 Fax: (281) 274-2067 * ======================================================================= From owner-ibis Thu Jul 3 14:10:04 1997 Received: from fwext.micron.com (fwext.micron.com [204.134.212.40]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id OAA06629 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from admin-srv21.micron.com by fwext.micron.com via smtpd (for server.vhdl.org [198.31.14.3]) with SMTP; 3 Jul 1997 21:09:03 UT Received: from ntxchange01.micron.com (ntxchange01 [137.201.105.67]) by admin-srv21.micron.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09685 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:09:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: by ntxchange01.micron.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BC87C3.0B7F0EE0@ntxchange01.micron.com>; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:09:04 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Huynh, Son P." To: "'ibis@vhdl.org'" Subject: subscribe Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:07:48 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 From owner-ibis Thu Jul 3 14:51:55 1997 Received: from montana.nwlink.com (kellee@montana.nwlink.com [199.242.23.13]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA07339 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kellee@localhost) by montana.nwlink.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA11582; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970703145053.006c9bec@mail.nwlink.com> X-Sender: kellee@mail.nwlink.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 14:50:54 -0700 To: Vincent Chang , ibis@vhdl.org From: Kellee Crisafulli Subject: Re: The voltage range Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:56 PM 7/3/97 -0500, Vincent Chang wrote: >Hi all, > >I have a question on the range of the voltage for Power and >Gnd clamps. The question is why do we need such wide range. > One reason to have the wide range is to insure that the simulators all extend the operating range in the same manor. Some simulators extend the range linearly which will clearly be in correct as the device characteristics always bend over some where. Some simulators clip the data at the last point to allow a saturation like effect to be modeled which will be incorrect if the device actually has extended data. Some simulators may even attempt some type of curve fit. To insure the same response in this abnormal range with all simulators IBIS requires the data to be extended thus allowing the model developer to insure how the abnormal operating conditions are handled. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Have a great day... Kellee Crisafulli at HyperLynx Inc. kellee@hyperlynx.com http://www.hyperlynx.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ibis Thu Jul 3 14:57:09 1997 Received: from ormail.intel.com (ormail.intel.com [134.134.248.3]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA07405 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ichips.intel.com (ichips.intel.com [134.134.50.200]) by ormail.intel.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA28057 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ichips.intel.com by ichips.intel.com (8.7.4/jIII) id OAA19279; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707032156.OAA19279@ichips.intel.com> To: ibis@vhdl.org Subject: the range of the voltage. Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 14:56:08 -0700 From: Stephen Peters Hello Vincent: The reason the IBIS specification requires the explicit ranges is due to differences in the way simulators extrapolate data beyond the last data point given. Some simulators will simply repeat the last data point in a table, others will do a linear interpolation based on the last two data points. For example, suppose a ground clamp table was given only as: V I +0 0 -0.2 0.000 -0.4 0.002 -0.6 0.020 -0.8 0.040 Some simulators may assume that at -1.0 volts the current is 0.040 (repeating the last point), others may do a linear extrapolation. To avoid this problem the IBIS spec explicitly requires that data be given over the worst possible ranges and input or output may see. (This worst possible range is based on transmission line reflections.) Of course, if your doing actual measurments or SPICE simulations you can always lessen the range, then enter the full range of data in the model itself by doing the extrapolation yourself. As to your second question, the IBIS parser does not (to my knowledge) check the tables ranges. I think a very legitimate argument can be made that it should. Regards, Stephen Peters Intel Corp. ============================================================= Om Thu, 03 Jul 1997 15:59:29 -0500 Vincent Chang wrote: Let's try again. The first question is Why should we do simulation from -Vcc to 2Vcc if we have diodes for clamping the output to Vcc and Gnd ? Is it not true that on an actual PCB, even if the voltage at any pin tends to go higher than Vcc (due to L-C effects etc.), the clamping diodes will allow it to go only till Vcc+Vf, where Vf is the forward voltage of the clamping diode? Basically that's what the diodes are for. The second question is, Can I use the voltage range from -Vcc to 1/2Vcc for Gnd Clamp? Is QC check going to fail on that voltage range? -- Best Regards, Vincent Chang ======================================================================= * Vincent Chang TI MSG ID: hui8 * * Design Automation mailto:vchang@memh.ti.com * * Memory Products Design http://www.memh.ti.com/~mcad * * Texas Instruments Inc. MS 657 Phone: (281) 274-3167 * * PO Box 1443, Houston, TX 77251 Fax: (281) 274-2067 * ======================================================================= From owner-ibis Thu Jul 3 15:27:16 1997 Received: from fwext.micron.com (fwext.micron.com [204.134.212.40]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA07833 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:27:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from admin-srv21.micron.com by fwext.micron.com via smtpd (for server.vhdl.org [198.31.14.3]) with SMTP; 3 Jul 1997 22:26:15 UT Received: from ntxchange01.micron.com (ntxchange01 [137.201.105.67]) by admin-srv21.micron.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA15380 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:26:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: by ntxchange01.micron.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BC87CD.D25C48C0@ntxchange01.micron.com>; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:26:12 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Huynh, Son P." To: "'ibis@vhdl.org'" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:24:56 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit subscribe From owner-ibis Thu Jul 3 17:04:39 1997 Received: from necscc.cl.nec.co.jp (research2.gate.nec.co.jp [202.32.8.50]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id RAA09204 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newdump.mel.cl.nec.co.jp by necscc.cl.nec.co.jp (8.8.5+2.7Wbeta5/950912) with ESMTP id JAA26036; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:03:35 +0900 (JST) Received: from castle.mel.cl.nec.co.jp by newdump.mel.cl.nec.co.jp (8.8.5+2.7Wbeta5/MEL-9600509) with SMTP id JAA01394; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:03:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost by castle.mel.cl.nec.co.jp (8.6.12+2.5W/mel-C950412) with SMTP id JAA02847; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:04:51 +0900 Message-Id: <199707040004.JAA02847@castle.mel.cl.nec.co.jp> X-Authentication-Warning: castle: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: ibis@vhdl.org Subject: unsubscribe From: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCPj5LXEhmTyQ7VhsoQg==?= (Hiroshi Matsumoto) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 09:04:50 +0900 Sender: mat@castle.mel.cl.nec.co.jp UNSUBSCRIBE From owner-ibis Fri Jul 4 00:03:44 1997 Received: from gatekeep.ti.com (gatekeep.ti.com [192.94.94.61]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id AAA15222 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfrp01.itg.ti.com ([137.167.210.12]) by gatekeep.ti.com (8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA11316 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 02:02:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ti (CNA0819696.business.tide.ti.com [137.167.202.100]) by dfrp01.itg.ti.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA16323; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:02:03 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: BeyondMail for Windows/Professional 2.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit To: ibis@vhdl.org, Vincent Chang From: Hans M Hilbig Subject: re: the range of the voltage. Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:03:49 -0700 X-BeyondMail-Priority: 1 Message-Id: Conversation-Id: <33BC12B1.755D@memh.ti.com> In-Reply-To: <33BC12B1.755D@memh.ti.com> Reply-To: Hans M Hilbig X-Receipt-From-Agent: true Vincent, in addition to the replies made from other IBIS folks, please be aware of the fact that recent generation 3.3V bus logic don't have VCC clamp diodes on their I/O's to allow 3V/5V mixed logic on one system. Also those devices that 3-state their outputs when VCC=GND (to allow power down of parts of a system connected to a common bus) don't have these diodes. So it's worth to have a look at up to +2VCC on those devices. Hans M Hilbig ************************************************* EMSLP Characterization Texas Instruments Freising Phone: +49-8161-804126 FAX:+49-8161-804909 e-mail: h-hilbig@ti.com ------------------ Original text From: Vincent Chang , on 7/3/97 3:59 PM: Hi all, Sorry, I did not make myself very clearly in the last message. Let's try again. The first question is Why should we do simulation from -Vcc to 2Vcc if we have diodes for clamping the output to Vcc and Gnd ? Is it not true that on an actual PCB, even if the voltage at any pin tends to go higher than Vcc (due to L-C effects etc.), the clamping diodes will allow it to go only till Vcc+Vf, where Vf is the forward voltage of the clamping diode? Basically that's what the diodes are for. The second question is, Can I use the voltage range from -Vcc to 1/2Vcc for Gnd Clamp? Is QC check going to fail on that voltage range? -- Best Regards, Vincent Chang ======================================================================= * Vincent Chang TI MSG ID: hui8 * * Design Automation mailto:vchang@memh.ti.com * * Memory Products Design http://www.memh.ti.com/~mcad * * Texas Instruments Inc. MS 657 Phone: (281) 274-3167 * * PO Box 1443, Houston, TX 77251 Fax: (281) 274-2067 * ======================================================================= From owner-ibis Mon Jul 7 03:15:41 1997 Received: from mail11.digital.com (mail11.digital.com [192.208.46.10]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id DAA18444 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 03:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us2rmc.zko.dec.com (us2rmc.zko.dec.com [16.33.16.101]) by mail11.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.5/1.0/WV) with SMTP id GAA20798 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 06:06:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from taxe01.enet by us2rmc.zko.dec.com (5.65/rmc-22feb94) id AA20984; Mon, 7 Jul 97 06:05:35 -0400 Message-Id: <9707071005.AA20984@us2rmc.zko.dec.com> Received: from taxe01.enet; by us2rmc.enet; Mon, 7 Jul 97 06:05:53 EDT Date: Mon, 7 Jul 97 06:05:53 EDT From: "DC Liu, CAE Group, EDA Dept, PC Engr. Digital TAO, TEL: (03)3900000-2314" To: ibis@vhdl.org Apparently-To: ibis@vhdl.org Subject: unsubscribe From owner-ibis Mon Jul 7 09:43:53 1997 Received: from fw.icx.com (root@fw.icx.com [205.238.6.33]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id JAA24768 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by fw.icx.com (Smail-3.2.0.92 1997-Feb-9 #4) id ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by chane.icx.com (Smail-3.2.0.92 1997-Feb-9 #5) id ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bob.icx.com via send-mail with stdio id for ibis@eda.org; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:42:43 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2.0.92 1997-Feb-9 #7 built 1997-Jun-4) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:42:43 -0700 (PDT) From: bob@icx.com ( Bob Ross) To: ibis@eda.org Subject: IBIS MEETING 7/11/97 IBIS Open Forum Meeting Agenda for 7/11/97 Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode (916) 356-9200 2-160894 4369865 All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will Hobbs and give the Reservation Number and Passcode. 8:00 Check-In, Intros, Announcements Ross - Intros of New IBIS Participants, Meeting Quorum Ross - Membership Update and Treasurers Report Rusher - Review of Previous Meeting's Minutes (and ARs) Peters - Miscellany/Announcements All - Press & Web Page Updates Ross, All - New Models Available, Library Update Powell, All - Opens for New Issues All 8:25 Administrative and Project Discussions DAC97 EIA Booth Report Rusher DAC97 IBIS Meeting Report Ross International Progress Rusher/Ross - 93/46/NP (IBIS Version 2.1) - 93/60/NP (IBIS Models and EMC Simulation) - EIAJ III (I/O Interface Model for ICs) Editing Committee Ross/Peters Version 3.1 Parser Ross Cookbook Peters s2ibis2 Issues (& NT) Dodd New Administrative Issues All 8:50 Technical Discussion BIRD42.3 Modeling Current Waveforms Kumar BIRD44 Interpretation of Min/Max/Weak/Strong Data Ross Switched Terminators Muranyi New Technical Issues All 9:50 Wrap Up and Next Meetings Plans Ross 9:55 Sign Off From owner-ibis Mon Jul 7 18:07:37 1997 Received: from fw.icx.com (root@fw.icx.com [205.238.6.33]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id SAA03295; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by fw.icx.com (Smail-3.2.0.92 1997-Feb-9 #4) id ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by chane.icx.com (Smail-3.2.0.92 1997-Feb-9 #5) id ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bob.icx.com via send-mail with stdio id for ibis@eda.org; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:06:20 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2.0.92 1997-Feb-9 #7 built 1997-Jun-4) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:06:20 -0700 (PDT) From: bob@icx.com ( Bob Ross) To: ibis-users@eda.org, roland_chang@pmc-sierra.bc.ca Subject: Re: [model selector] keyword Cc: ibis@eda.org Roland: I do not think we intended that the reserved words be used with [Model Selector]. As it stands, it looks like they could be used. We will need to raise this question as a clarification issue. As an alternative, the same effect could be accomplished by using a Terminator model to accomplish the same effect - a low resistance to ground or power for GND or POWER, and a high resistance for NC. In your example below, the [Model Selector] does not undo the differential association that may exist for the differential driver. Either the pins 19 and 20 will always be differential or be single ended based on the [Diff Pin] keyword. Best Regards, Bob Ross Interconnectix > From: Roland Chang > To: "'ibis-users@vhdl.org'" > Subject: [model selector] keyword > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:25:57 -0700 > Hello all, > I was wondering, in the use of the model selector keyword, can one list > POWER, GND, and NC? > The reason I ask, is that in the case of pins that are usable in various > modes, it often involves grounding, or leaving certain other pins > open(NC). > thanx, > roland > ****************************************** > Roland Chang ext. 2647 > PMC-Sierra > Applications Department > 105-8555 Baxter Place > Burnaby, BC > V5A 4V7 > Tel: (604) 415-6000 > email: chang@pmc-sierra.bc.ca > ****************************************** > eg: > [Pin] signal_name model_name R_pin L_pin C_pin > . > . > . > 9 CLKI crystalbuf > 10 CLKO crystalbuf > . > . > . > 19 IN(+) PECLbuf > 20 IN(-) PECLbuf > . > . > . > [Model Selector] crystalbuf > NC |default, CLKI, CLKO attached to a crystal > pc5x03 |if CLKO left open (NC), feed external clock signal into CLKI > [Model Selector] PECLbuf > PECL_diff |default, IN(+), IN(-) function as PECL differential > inputs > PECL_single | IN(+) as single sided PECL, decouple IN(-) to ground. > TTL_single | IN(+) as single sided TTL, IN(-) to ground. > GND From owner-ibis Tue Jul 8 04:41:23 1997 Received: from master.accesscorp.com (master.accesscorp.com [204.233.164.1]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id EAA12565 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isg-comm.innovativesearch.com ([38.209.181.3]) by master.accesscorp.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA01977 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 06:26:03 -0500 Received: by isg-comm.innovativesearch.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BC8B71.F0F4ED80@isg-comm.innovativesearch.com>; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:38:34 -0400 Message-ID: From: Broderick Boyce To: "'ibis@vhdl.org'" Subject: unsubscribe Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:38:33 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit unsubscribe From owner-ibis Tue Jul 8 07:11:53 1997 Received: from fwext.micron.com (fwext.micron.com [204.134.212.40]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id HAA15065 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from admin-srv21.micron.com by fwext.micron.com via smtpd (for server.vhdl.org [198.31.14.3]) with SMTP; 8 Jul 1997 14:10:50 UT Received: from admin-srv17.micron.com (admin-srv17 [137.201.97.108]) by admin-srv21.micron.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA16855 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:10:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bjohnso (bjohnso [137.201.41.154]) by admin-srv17.micron.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA02575 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:10:45 -0600 (MDT) Sender: bjohnson@micron.com Message-ID: <33C24A63.2A4A@micron.com> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 08:10:43 -0600 From: Brian Johnson Organization: Micron Technology, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis@vhdl.org Subject: (no subject) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit unsubscribe -- Brian Johnson Micron Technology, Inc. 208-368-2073 brianjohnson@micron.com From owner-ibis Tue Jul 8 07:42:18 1997 Received: from pop01.netaddress.usa.net (pop01.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.132]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id HAA15649 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1736 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jul 1997 14:41:08 -0000 Received: from 158.140.126.184 by www03 via web-mailer (2.1) on Tue, 08 Jul 1997 08:40:55 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 08:40:55 From: "Sanjeev R" To: ibis@vhdl.org Subject: subscribe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From owner-ibis Mon Jul 14 08:39:55 1997 Received: from ormail.intel.com (ormail.intel.com [134.134.248.3]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id IAA07240 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:39:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ichips.intel.com (ichips.intel.com [134.134.50.200]) by ormail.intel.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA11951 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ichips.intel.com by ichips.intel.com (8.7.4/jIII) id IAA09079; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707141538.IAA09079@ichips.intel.com> To: ibis@vhdl.org Subject: IBIS Open Forum Meeting Minutes, 7/11 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:38:48 -0700 From: Stephen Peters DATE: July 11, 1997 SUBJECT: 7/11/97 EIA IBIS Open Forum Minutes VOTING MEMBERS AND 1997 PARTICIPANTS LIST: AMP Jeff Walden Applied Simulation Technology Dileep Divekar*, Norio Matsui, Raj Raghuram Cadence Design & UniCAD C. Kumar, Don Telian, Cameron Seitz Cypress Bruce Wenniger Digital Equipment Corp. Jeff Chu* High Design Technology (Razvan Ene) HyperLynx Kellee Crisafulli, Steve Kaufer INCASES Olaf Rethmeier, Werner Rissiek Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Henry Maramis, Will Hobbs Interconnectix Bob Ross* Mitsubushi Tam Cao, Hoang Nguyen Motorola [Ahmed Omer], Michael Desiderio*, Paul Bolden*, Tom Myers* National Semiconductor Syed Huq, Cheng-Yang Kao, Mike Bristol, Peter Laflamme, Kevin Smith NCR Dave Moxley, Richard Mellitz NEC (Hiroshi Matsumoto) Quad Design/Viewlogic Jon Powell, Chris Rokusek, Peivand Tehrani Quantic EMC (Mike Ventham) Texas Instruments Thomas Fisher Thomson-CSF/SCTF (Jean LeBrun) VeriBest Ian Dodd*, William Bell VLSI Technology Harish Patel, D.C. Sessions OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1997: 3M Fran Hart Actel Scott Schlachter Acuson & Free Model Foundation Richard Munden Alcatel John Fitzpatrick Ansoft Eric Bogatin Apteq Design Systems Dan FitzPatrick Compaq Weston Beal, Mark Leonard EIA Patti Rusher EMC Fabrizio Zanella Hewlett Packard, EEsof Karl Kachigan, Henry Wu Hewlett Packard, France Jean-Christophe Pautrat* Hitachi Saburo Hojo, Yasushi Ogawa IBM Brad Herrman Interface Technology Dan Waterloo Micron Technology Brian Johnson Molex Gus Panella North Carolina State U. (Michael Steer) S3, Inc. Porsh Shih, Sarathy Sribhashyam Symmetry Andy Hughes TRW Ray Steele Ultratest International Charles Im* Zeelan Technology George Opsahl In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses. Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets. Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as follows: Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode August 8, 1997 (916) 356-9200 3-125343 4891173 All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas out 7 days before each open forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode. NOTE: "AR" = Action Required. -------------------------------- MINUTES ------------------------------------- INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM Michael Desiderio, Program Manager for the Advanced Interconnect Systems Lab at Motorola, indicated that Motorola is investigating how to provide IBIS models. He is filling in for Ahmed Omera who has left. Group managers Paul Bolden and Tom Myers also joined in. Jean-Christophe Pautrat from Hewlett Packard, France is working with Intel processors on desktop PC projects and is interested in IBIS models. MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT Bob Ross reported that Patti Rusher submitted the ledger as of 5/31/97 of $9,433 after deducting some meeting expenses. Two companies have been removed from the Members list because no payment has been received. REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S No Corrections. Stephen Peters reported on the AR's. The major outstanding ones are for examples for the Cookbook and BIRDs. Please see the cookbook discussion below MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS Bob Ross announced that he will be on vacation starting Saturday, June 12 and should be returning Monday, August 4, 1997. The system administration duties will be handled by Stephen Peters and Syed Huq. Syed Huq should be returning from vacation on Monday, July 15, 1997. Stephen Peters is expecting to take off for two weeks after Friday, July 17 and will be returning August 4, 1997. PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES Bob Ross reported that as a result of a press release by Patti Rusher, "IBIS 3.0 Gets Nod From EIA" appeared in EE Times, June 30, 1997, p. 14. Bob also reported that in EE Times, June 16, 1997, pg., 72, and article Pacific Numerix Fields EMI-Simulation Analysis Tool mentions using IBIS or Spice models. An article "Interconnect Synthesis Methodology" in the July 1997 issue of Printed Circuit Design, pp. 17-21 mentions IBIS. NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE Bob Ross notes that these Web sites have added models: Cypress Semiconductor has added an All Octal FCT model Library (68 Components) for a total of about 102 components. The IDT download site has about 44 components plus another 11 that can be obtained from the local FAE. Bob also notes that an IBIS diode terminator model from California Micro Devices exits at: http:://www.calmicor.com/prod/spice/spice.htm Bob also notes that one can request IBIS models for SRAMS (DRAMS under construction) at http://sec.samsung.com/Products/sram/model_request.html Jeff Chu asked how one submits IBIS models. Bob Ross responded that they are submitted to the Librarian, Jon Powell (address at the end) and are checked out using ibis_chk and actual simulation for syntax correctness and to give feedback regarding results. A submission authorization form is available on the ibis FTP site under /pub/ibis/models. Some models on company Web Sites may not have gone through such checking and may have syntax flaws. OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES Bob Ross - On adding GND, POWER and NC reserved words to [Model Selector] choices. DESIGN AUTOMATION CONFERENCE (DAC) 1997 EIA BOOTH REPORT Bob Ross indicated from the previous report that the Booth reported good traffic and reprints of Syed Huq's December 1996 Article in Electronic Design: "Ease System Simulation With IBIS Device Models" were distributed. The IBIS poster at the Booth looked very nice and listed the participating companies. DESIGN AUTOMATION CONFERENCE (DAC) 1997 EIA/IBIS SUMMIT MEETING REPORT Bob Ross, reported that 28 people attended the nearly all day session. There were several interesting presentations in the morning. New EIA/IBIS officers were elected, and IBIS Version 3.0 was ratified. INTERNATIONAL PROGRESS - 93/46/NP (IBIS Version 2.1) - No Report. Expect about a two year process. - 93/60/NP (IBIS Models and EMC Simulation) - No Report. - EIAJ III (I/O Interface Model for ICs - Based on the presentations at the IBIS Summit, we expect another release in September along with a Package Committee release. EDITING COMMITTEE Stephen Peters reported on editing IBIS Version 3.0 for clarity. It could use a table of contents and a keyword list showing when keywords were introduced. Bob Ross added other possible improvements - section or chapter headings, consistency of words per some of the improvements suggested by Ogawa-san (Vice Chair of the EIAJ subcommittee), a tree diagram, a syntax, etc. In addition, some of the Cookbook points could be added into the Specification for clarity. BIRD44 to be discussed later also raises some editorial clarification points regarding min/max and fast/slow/strong/weak interpretations. A suggested process is for Bob and Stephen and anyone else who is interested to make a first cut at such improvements and put them as a pending Version 3.1 draft in the Work In Progress (wip) directory. One issue is whether we continue to use the text format (with crude graphics) or go with Word, HTML, Post Script, or some other format which will allow better graphics and presentation. Bob and Stephen favored at this time keeping the reference standard in the text format for maximum portability. However, we will consider this issue when some we do some of the editorial changes. A second issue is whether we hire (or use an internal resource) a technical writer. Stephen and Bob feel that we first need to make the initial editorial pass and maintain the historical context first before any major restructuring is considered. This issue will also be considered after the initial editorial review. Bob also indicated that the parser development project also served as an editorial review because some unclear items were revealed. Version 1.1 followed Version 1.0 and Version 2.1 along with letter ballot review followed Version 2.0 with parser development motivated improvements. AR - Bob Ross generate and post a BNF for IBIS Version 3.0 (and IBIS Version 3.0 ratification AR). VERSION 3.1 PARSER Bob Ross reported that Paul Munsey, who developed the ibis_chk and ibischk2 parsers essentially no-bid on the ibischk3 parser because he is still finishing the RAIL parser and is carring on full-time job/family responsibilities. He may be available for some of the work, but suggested that we consider other sources. Bob stated that there are two alternatives: Some internal company resource that can be dedicated to this project, or hire another contractor. Stephen Peters suggested that we ask on the reflector if someone is interested in bidding on the project or if someone can recommend a contractor who might be interested. AR - Stephen Peters put a message for parser development interest/bidding on the IBIS reflector. COOKBOOK Stephen Peters reported that he has received some review comments. However, he has not received any of the promised examples. The AR's (Action Required) for these examples are listed below. Some additions were made to the version of the cookbook handed out at DAC regarding recommended test loads for waveforms. Stephen can provide private copies, but is not ready to put it on the FTP site yet. Stephen also reported that based on an internal review, a primer on behavioral modeling is recommended. He has a writer who will be doing some work in this introduction section. The IBIS keywords will be illustrated in this context. AR - The following people have volunteered to supply examples Steve Kaufer/Hyperlynx -- Example 1 Arpad Muranyi - Example 2 Stephen Peters - Example 3 AR - D.C Sessions. Supply a paragraph or two explaining the best way to modify a SPICE transistor model to get realistic power and ground clamp information AR - Bob Ross. Supply the text for the section "Diode Transient Time Data" AR - Syed Huq. Review and expand (if necessary) Section 3.3. on "Obtaining I/V and Switching Information via Lab Measurement". AR - Bob Ross submit an example of a Series MOSFET component. AR - Everyone who received a copy review the document and provide comments to Stephen Peters (address at the end). S2IBIS2 ISSUES (& NT) Ian Dodd reported that VeriBest had withdrawn their s2ibis based on Version 1.1 s2ibis since it had other errors. VeriBest now has NT/Windows 95 versions of s2ibis_ver1.3 (for Version 1.1 of IBIS) and s2ibis_ver2.1 (for Version 2.1 of IBIS) compiled. In order to make them work with NT and Windows, they needed to deal with file loading problems and code order dependency syntax issues that compiled differently in Windows environments than in UNIX environments. Ian's concern is that the code is untested (there are no regression tests for UNIX versions available). He would like to make the versions available AS IS for users to use and test. VeriBest would make fixes and corrections on a time available basis. Bob Ross felt this was a good plan and VeriBest should put there files on the VeriBest Web site. There will be four zip files for source and executables for each s2ibis version. They will be in the location that the official EIA/IBIS Web page already points to. AR - Ian Dodd put s2ibis_ver1.3 and s2ibis_ver2.1 for Windows on the VeriBest Web site. BIRD42.3 - MODELING CURRENT WAVEFORMS Bob Ross stated that BIRD42.2 had been considered for Version 3.0, but it was too controversial to be included. It deals with describing power and ground current waveforms to assist in power integrity (ground and power bounce) and SSO (simultaneous switched outputs) detail and also may produce improved switching algorithm detail. An AR is still pending regarding discussion on this issue between D.C. Sessions and C. Kumar. Bob had issued BIRD42.3 to change the keyword syntax. This could be considered as a Version 3.1 technical addition if it is approved. Discussion will be deferred until next meeting. AR - D.C. Sessions and Kumar get together and provide an example showing where the rising and falling waveform tables do not result in correct results. BIRD44 - INTERPRETATION OF MIN/MAX/WEAK/STRONG DATA Bob Ross reported that Andy Ingraham of Digital Equipment Corporation had submitted BIRD44 as an editorial improvement to clarify the actual usage of the min and max columns for data. Bob felt that while it contained good material, an alternative might be an explanation section at the beginning of the standard. There already is a large base of models and utilities (s2ibis) which use the existing min/max column headings and terms. BIRD44 will continue to remain open for further discussion. We may want to consider how to resolve it after we do the first pass on the editorial cleanup of IBIS Version 3.0. SWITCHING TERMINATORS Arpad Muranyi has no further work in this area to report. This also could be considered a Version 3.1 technical extension if a BIRD for this functionality is issued and approved. MODEL SELECTOR HANDING OF RESERVED WORDS Bob Ross introduced briefly that there had been a question regarding whether GND, POWER, and NC could be included as [Model Selector] choices. Arpad questioned the need. Bob stated that the Terminator models could be used for similar functions, especially NC. This will be considered further as part of the editorial review to propose clarification of this issue. (A BIRD may need to be issued.) FINAL ITEMS Because of holidays and people being on vacation, the next teleconferencing meeting was scheduled on Friday, August 8, 1997. NEXT MEETING: The next meeting is on Friday, August 8, 1997, 8:00 A.M. to 9:55 A.M. ============================================================================== NOTES IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 603-2523, Fax (503) 639-3469 bob@icx.com Modeling Engineer, Interconnectix 10220 SW Nimbus Ave, K4, Portland, OR 97223 VICE CHAIR: Syed Huq (408) 721-4874, Fax: (408) 721-4785 huq@rockie.nsc.com Staff Applications Engineer, National Semiconductor, M/S A-2595 2900 Semiconductor Drive, Santa Clara, CA 95052 SECRETARY: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515 sjpeters@ichips.intel.com Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation M/S JF1-56 2111 NE 25th Ave. Hillsboro, Oregon 97124-5961 LIBRARIAN: Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259 jonp@qdt.com Senior Scientist, Quad Design/Viewlogic 1385 Del Norte Rd., Camarillo, CA 93010 This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA Manual of Organization and Procedure. The following e-mail addresses are used: ibis-request@vhdl.org To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector (ibis@vhdl.org), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector (ibis-users@vhdl.org) or both. State your request. ibis-info@vhdl.org To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS Open Forum as a full Member. ibis@vhdl.org To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS technical enhancements. Job posting information is not permitted. ibis-users@vhdl.org To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and general user concerns. Job posting information is not permitted. ibischk-bug@vhdl.org To report ibischk2 parser bugs. The Bug Report Form Resides on vhdl.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/bugform.txt along with reported bugs. Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the Electronic Information Group under: http://www.eia.org Check the pub/ibis directory on vhdl.org for more information on previous discussions and results. You can get on via FTP anonymous. "IBIS Spoken Here" placards are available from Jon Powell (jonp@qdt.com) for use at trade shows. ============================================================================== From owner-ibis Mon Jul 14 09:21:23 1997 Received: from ormail.intel.com (ormail.intel.com [134.134.248.3]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id JAA07823; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ichips.intel.com (ichips.intel.com [134.134.50.200]) by ormail.intel.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA21637; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ichips.intel.com by ichips.intel.com (8.7.4/jIII) id JAA15012; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707141620.JAA15012@ichips.intel.com> To: ibis@vhdl.org, ibis-users@vhdl.org Subject: Persons needed for Golden Parser Development Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:20:15 -0700 From: Stephen Peters Greetings Fellow IBIS fans and users: As you are probably aware, IBIS version 3.0 was approved at the IBIS Open Forum face to face meeting on June 7. With the approval of the new IBIS version the Golden Parser program ("ibis_chk2") must now be upgraded. Unfortunately, the contractors (Paul Munsey and company) who wrote the first two versions of the golden parser are not available to work on a version 3.0 of ibis_chk. Therefore, the IBIS Open Forum is soliciting names of any companies or individuals who may be interested in bidding on this project. If you or your company are interested, or you know of a contractor who may be, please contact Stephen Peters (EIA IBIS Open Forum Secretary) at the address below. An informal request for quote is available for the asking. Thanks for your help. Best Regards, Stephen Peters EIA/IBIS Open Forum Secretary Intel Corp. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Stephen J. Peters MS JF1-55 Phone: (503) 264-4108 Intel Corporation Internet: sjpeters@ichips.intel.com 2111 N.E. 25th Ave. Fax: (503) 264-4515 Hillsboro, OR 97124-6497 Microprocessor Division 6 From owner-ibis Wed Jul 16 17:23:08 1997 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp7.netcom.com [163.179.3.7]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id RAA26845 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from contec.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by netcomsv.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.01)) with UUCP id OAA18166 for ibis@server.vhdl.org; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from contec12.apsimtech.COM by apsimtech.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24230; Wed, 16 Jul 97 14:17:55 PDT Received: by contec12.apsimtech.COM (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA01892; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:19:08 +0800 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:19:08 +0800 From: fred@contec.apsimtech.COM (Fred) Message-Id: <9707162119.AA01892@contec12.apsimtech.COM> To: ibis@server.vhdl.org Subject: IBIS simulators X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Jay Diepenbrock wrote about what options are available for standalone simulation with ibis models. Applied Simulation Technology is an SI company that has Spice with full ibis support. The prelayout tools also come with schematic capture and field solvers as options. References are available upon request. The company offers postlayout and EMI solutions as well. We have been supporting ibis from its inception when ibis stood for Intel buffer information sheet. We have a translator that takes in the ibis format, standard (call it what you will its not a model at that point) and builds the proper Spice behavior model with a mouse click. For more information contact: Fred Balistreri 408-434-0967 ext. 102 Fax 408-434-1003 email fred@apsimtech.com From owner-ibis Fri Jul 18 09:28:24 1997 Received: from core.IConNet.Net (core.IConNet.NET [199.173.162.30]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id JAA04216 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 2071597935.bellatlantic.net (2071597935.bellatlantic.net [207.159.79.35]) by core.IConNet.Net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA11193 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:26:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by 2071597935.bellatlantic.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BC9375.626B7F00@2071597935.bellatlantic.net>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:23:23 -0400 Message-ID: <01BC9375.626B7F00@2071597935.bellatlantic.net> From: "Tedd K.Stickel" To: "'ibis@vhdl.org'" Subject: subscribe Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:23:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From owner-ibis Fri Jul 18 09:35:52 1997 Received: from tower.ti.com (tower.ti.com [192.94.94.5]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id JAA04253 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shvp.sc.ti.com ([157.170.81.207]) by tower.ti.com (8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA27932 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:34:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from LT0459615.shvp.sc.ti.com ([134.183.77.83]) by shvp.sc.ti.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA12098 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:36:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970718163659.00689c84@popper.shvp.sc.ti.com> X-Sender: a0459615@popper.shvp.sc.ti.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:36:59 -0500 To: ibis@vhdl.org From: Ramzi Ammar Subject: unsubscribe please unsubscribe me from the ibis team regards, Ramzi Ammar From owner-ibis Fri Jul 18 12:40:11 1997 Received: from falcon.webpros.com (falcon.professionals.com [206.127.192.2]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id MAA07323 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monterey.indusinc.com (ppp-1-188.professionals.com [206.127.193.188]) by falcon.webpros.com (8.8.5/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA25817 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from milan@localhost) by monterey.indusinc.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id MAA08422 for ibis@vhdl.org; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:36:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Milan Gandhi Message-Id: <199707181936.MAA08422@monterey.indusinc.com> To: ibis@vhdl.org Subject: unsubscribe X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII From owner-ibis Fri Jul 18 18:26:33 1997 Received: from tower.ti.com (tower.ti.com [192.94.94.5]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id SAA12234 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shvp.sc.ti.com ([157.170.81.207]) by tower.ti.com (8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA26764 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:23:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from LT0459615.shvp.sc.ti.com ([134.183.77.76]) by shvp.sc.ti.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA16620 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:24:35 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970719012510.00692020@popper.shvp.sc.ti.com> X-Sender: a0459615@popper.shvp.sc.ti.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:25:10 -0500 To: ibis@vhdl.org From: Ramzi Ammar Subject: unsubscribe Subject: unsubscribe From owner-ibis Sun Jul 20 07:10:19 1997 Received: from galileo21.galileo.co.il (galileo21.galileo.co.il [192.116.246.22]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id HAA12936 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 07:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pc13 (pc13.galileo.co.il [192.116.246.249]) by galileo.co.il (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA18991 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 17:06:58 +0300 (GMT-3) Message-Id: <199707201406.RAA18991@galileo.co.il> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Eitan Medina" Organization: Galileo Technology Ltd. To: ibis@vhdl.org Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 16:07:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Pin numbering for BGA packages. Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Hi, I have a device packaged in BGA package. In these packages the pins are not numbered from 1 to 208 (or whatever), but in Ball# (A1,A2,...C1,C2,C3...). IBIS ver 2.1 does not say anything on this. Is it legal to place Ball# instead of pin# ? Thanks, Eitan Medina Email: eitan@galileo.co.il Galileo Technology Ltd. 15 Geron st. P.O.Box 2786 Yehud 56217 ISRAEL Tel: +972-3-6320220 Fax: +972-3-6320221 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* * check out our new web site: http://www.GalileoT.com * *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From owner-ibis Sun Jul 20 09:42:54 1997 Received: from galileo21.galileo.co.il ([192.116.246.22]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id JAA14981 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 09:42:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pc13 (pc13.galileo.co.il [192.116.246.249]) by galileo.co.il (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA22369 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 19:39:36 +0300 (GMT-3) Message-Id: <199707201639.TAA22369@galileo.co.il> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Eitan Medina" Organization: Galileo Technology Ltd. To: ibis@vhdl.org Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 18:39:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Simulating Pulldown and pullup curves. Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Hi, I have an I/O pad with clamping-high and clamping-low circuits. When simulating the whole pad-circuit I get non-monotonic data (My checker wanrns about this). Should I simulate the pullup-curve on just the pullup-circuitry (eliminating the clamping and other structures that exist in the pad-circuit) in order to get monotonic curves ? Thanks, Eitan Eitan Medina Email: eitan@galileo.co.il Galileo Technology Ltd. 15 Geron st. P.O.Box 2786 Yehud 56217 ISRAEL Tel: +972-3-6320220 Fax: +972-3-6320221 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* * check out our new web site: http://www.GalileoT.com * *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From owner-ibis Mon Jul 21 05:08:03 1997 Received: from kaw.com ([206.155.177.89]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id FAA01272 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 05:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kaw.com; id AA20269; Mon, 21 Jul 97 08:06:33 EDT Received: from audi.kaw.com(192.168.200.85) by explorer via smap (V3.1) id xma020263; Mon, 21 Jul 97 08:06:07 -0400 Received: from blazer.kaw.com (blazer [192.168.200.90]) by kaw.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA09822; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 08:03:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by blazer.kaw.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA01552; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 08:03:34 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 08:03:34 -0500 From: dan@kaw.com (Dan Aleksandrowicz) Message-Id: <199612231303.IAA01552@blazer.kaw.com> To: eitan@galileo.co.il Subject: Re: Pin numbering for BGA packages. Cc: ibis@vhdl.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Hi Eitan. It is legal to number pins using BGA numbering like A1, A2, A3 ... AB12. Good luck. Dan Aleksandrowicz Engineering Solutions KAW/USA 39 Simon Street Nashua, NH 03060 http://www.kaw.com From owner-ibis Mon Jul 21 06:42:38 1997 Received: from mail12.digital.com (mail12.digital.com [192.208.46.20]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id GAA02855 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us8rmc.bb.dec.com (us8rmc.bb.dec.com [16.53.0.44]) by mail12.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.5/1.0/WV) with SMTP id JAA30740; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:27:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wrksys.enet by us8rmc.bb.dec.com (5.65/rmc-17Jan97) id AA23198; Mon, 21 Jul 97 09:23:41 -0400 Message-Id: <9707211323.AA23198@us8rmc.bb.dec.com> Received: from wrksys.enet; by us8rmc.enet; Mon, 21 Jul 97 09:27:21 EDT Date: Mon, 21 Jul 97 09:27:21 EDT From: Andy Ingraham To: eitan@galileo.co.il Cc: ibis@vhdl.org, ingraham@wrksys.ENET.dec.com Apparently-To: ibis@vhdl.org, eitan@galileo.co.il Subject: Re: Simulating Pulldown and pullup curves. Eitan Medina wrote: > I have an I/O pad with clamping-high and clamping-low circuits. > When simulating the whole pad-circuit I get non-monotonic data (My > checker wanrns about this). > Should I simulate the pullup-curve on just the pullup-circuitry (eliminating > the clamping and other structures that exist in the pad-circuit) in order to > get monotonic curves ? IBIS does not require monotonicity. If your device is non-monotonic (if the total current is non-monotonic), there is nothing you can do to the data to make it seem monotonic. Some simulators will have problems simulating with your device, others will not. You cannot help that, except by redesigning your IC. When separating the total device data into pullup/pulldown/clamp curves for IBIS, even though the total current may be monotonic, some of the resulting curves by themselves may become non-monotonic. This is unimportant, because the simulator will sum the currents and the non-monotonicity should go away. The IBIS checker complains because it doesn't try to sum the currents back together. It is just being extra cautious. I would not bother trying to make the separate curves monotonic just to eliminate the warning message; especially if doing so results in a less-than-correct representation of your device. If you simulate the currents separately, they may not add up to the total current when you recombine them. Regards, Andy From owner-ibis Mon Jul 21 08:55:56 1997 Received: from relayhost.vlsi.com (tweety.vlsi.com [134.27.20.23]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id IAA05139 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (anubis.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.1]) by relayhost.vlsi.com (8.6.12/Hub-Perlotto/050895) with ESMTP id KAA16592 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:19:35 -0700 Received: from mailserver.tempe.vlsi.com (mailserver.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.5]) by relayhost.tempe.vlsi.com (8.6.9/Hub-Perlotto/101195) with ESMTP id IAA00381 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:54:18 -0700 Received: from witsend ([134.27.133.12]) by mailserver.tempe.vlsi.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA10592; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:54:16 -0700 Sender: dc.sessions@tempe.vlsi.com (D.C. Sessions) Message-ID: <33D38627.411D@tempe.vlsi.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:54:15 -0700 From: "D. C. Sessions" Organization: VLSI Technology Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Ingraham CC: ibis@vhdl.org Subject: Re: Simulating Pulldown and pullup curves. References: <9707211323.AA23198@us8rmc.bb.dec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy Ingraham wrote: > > Eitan Medina wrote: > > > I have an I/O pad with clamping-high and clamping-low circuits. > > When simulating the whole pad-circuit I get non-monotonic data (My > > checker wanrns about this). > > Should I simulate the pullup-curve on just the pullup-circuitry (eliminating > > the clamping and other structures that exist in the pad-circuit) in order to > > get monotonic curves ? > > IBIS does not require monotonicity. > > If your device is non-monotonic (if the total current is > non-monotonic), there is nothing you can do to the data to make it > seem monotonic. Some simulators will have problems simulating with > your device, others will not. You cannot help that, except by > redesigning your IC. > > When separating the total device data into pullup/pulldown/clamp > curves for IBIS, even though the total current may be monotonic, some > of the resulting curves by themselves may become non-monotonic. This > is unimportant, because the simulator will sum the currents and the > non-monotonicity should go away. The IBIS checker complains because > it doesn't try to sum the currents back together. It is just being > extra cautious. > > I would not bother trying to make the separate curves monotonic just > to eliminate the warning message; especially if doing so results in > a less-than-correct representation of your device. If you simulate > the currents separately, they may not add up to the total current > when you recombine them. As a point of reference, some of our drivers have non-monotonic I/V curves due to circuitry which ensures that the outputs remain high-impedance when the power is OFF; the weak devices used for this also cause some loss of gate drive when the device drives into a heavy load. -- D. C. Sessions dc.sessions@tempe.vlsi.com From owner-ibis Mon Jul 21 08:59:47 1997 Received: from natsemi-bh.nsc.com (natsemi-bh.nsc.com [204.163.202.66]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id IAA05147 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by natsemi-bh.nsc.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) id IAA18627; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:57:19 -0700 Received: from nsc.nsc.com by natsemi-bh.nsc.com via smap (3.2) id xma016943; Mon, 21 Jul 97 08:55:27 -0700 Received: from lightning.nsc.com by nsc.nsc.com (5.65/1.34) with SMTP id AA23347 for ibis@vhdl.org; Mon, 21 Jul 97 08:54:24 -0700 Received: from kural by rockie.nsc.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23709; Mon, 21 Jul 97 08:54:35 PDT Date: Mon, 21 Jul 97 08:54:35 PDT From: huq@rockie.nsc.com (Syed Huq) Message-Id: <9707211554.AA23709@rockie.nsc.com> To: ibis@vhdl.org, eitan@galileo.co.il Subject: Re: Pin numbering for BGA packages. Eitan, The IBIS standard states that the [Pin] field can have 5 characters Max. So you can either use numbers or letters or combination of both not to exceed 5 characters. Regards, Syed National Semiconductor Corp. > From owner-ibis@server.vhdl.org Sun Jul 20 08:37:03 1997 > Comments: Authenticated sender is > From: "Eitan Medina" > Organization: Galileo Technology Ltd. > To: ibis@vhdl.org > Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 16:07:04 +0200 > Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset=US-ASCII> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Subject: Pin numbering for BGA packages. > X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) > > Hi, > > I have a device packaged in BGA package. > In these packages the pins are not numbered from 1 to 208 (or whatever), > but in Ball# (A1,A2,...C1,C2,C3...). > > IBIS ver 2.1 does not say anything on this. > > Is it legal to place Ball# instead of pin# ? > > Thanks, > > Eitan Medina > Email: eitan@galileo.co.il > Galileo Technology Ltd. > 15 Geron st. > P.O.Box 2786 > Yehud 56217 > ISRAEL > Tel: +972-3-6320220 > Fax: +972-3-6320221 > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > * check out our new web site: http://www.GalileoT.com * > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > From owner-ibis Mon Jul 21 09:19:03 1997 Received: from guelah.nexen.com (guelah.nexen.com [204.249.96.19]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id JAA05535 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maelstrom.nexen.com (maelstrom.nexen.com [204.249.97.5]) by guelah.nexen.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03557; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:17:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bach.nexen.com (bach.nexen.com [204.249.99.107]) by maelstrom.nexen.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA01921; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:16:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chang@localhost) by bach.nexen.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA08188; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:16:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Luke Chang Message-Id: <199707211616.MAA08188@bach.nexen.com> To: huq@rockie.nsc.com Subject: Re: Pin numbering for BGA packages. Cc: ibis@vhdl.org Hi Syed, Can a pin name start with any character, such as _, !, @, #, $, 5, 6, *, and &, or does it have to start with a letter (a-z, A-Z)? Luke Chang Fujitsu Nexion, Inc. Acton, MA ----- Begin Included Message ----- From owner-ibis@server.vhdl.org Mon Jul 21 12:12:31 1997 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 97 08:54:35 PDT From: huq@rockie.nsc.com (Syed Huq) To: ibis@vhdl.org, eitan@galileo.co.il Subject: Re: Pin numbering for BGA packages. Content-Length: 1293 Eitan, The IBIS standard states that the [Pin] field can have 5 characters Max. So you can either use numbers or letters or combination of both not to exceed 5 characters. Regards, Syed National Semiconductor Corp. > From owner-ibis@server.vhdl.org Sun Jul 20 08:37:03 1997 > Comments: Authenticated sender is > From: "Eitan Medina" > Organization: Galileo Technology Ltd. > To: ibis@vhdl.org > Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 16:07:04 +0200 > Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset=US-ASCII> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Subject: Pin numbering for BGA packages. > X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) > > Hi, > > I have a device packaged in BGA package. > In these packages the pins are not numbered from 1 to 208 (or whatever), > but in Ball# (A1,A2,...C1,C2,C3...). > > IBIS ver 2.1 does not say anything on this. > > Is it legal to place Ball# instead of pin# ? > > Thanks, > > Eitan Medina > Email: eitan@galileo.co.il > Galileo Technology Ltd. > 15 Geron st. > P.O.Box 2786 > Yehud 56217 > ISRAEL > Tel: +972-3-6320220 > Fax: +972-3-6320221 > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > * check out our new web site: http://www.GalileoT.com * > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > ----- End Included Message ----- From owner-ibis Mon Jul 21 09:26:58 1997 Received: from natsemi-bh.nsc.com (natsemi-bh.nsc.com [204.163.202.66]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id JAA05690 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by natsemi-bh.nsc.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) id JAA14586; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:24:59 -0700 Received: from nsc.nsc.com by natsemi-bh.nsc.com via smap (3.2) id xma014163; Mon, 21 Jul 97 09:24:31 -0700 Received: from lightning.nsc.com by nsc.nsc.com (5.65/1.34) with SMTP id AA25274 for chang@nexen.com; Mon, 21 Jul 97 09:24:55 -0700 Received: from kural by rockie.nsc.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24398; Mon, 21 Jul 97 09:25:22 PDT Date: Mon, 21 Jul 97 09:25:22 PDT From: huq@rockie.nsc.com (Syed Huq) Message-Id: <9707211625.AA24398@rockie.nsc.com> To: huq@rockie.nsc.com, chang@nexen.com Subject: Re: Pin numbering for BGA packages. Cc: ibis@vhdl.org Luke, Yes: I have tested the following on the ibischk2 parser and they will pass. Meaning, you can have characters like you mentioned as the first char in the pin field. THere is no restriction. REgards, Syed National Semiconductor Corp. [Pin] signal_name model_name R_pin L_pin C_pin | !1 RINA- DS90LV032TM_RIN 50.0m 2.07n 0.429p @2 RINA+ DS90LV032TM_RIN 50.0m 1.49n 0.306p 3A ROUTA DS90LV032TM_ROUT 50.0m 0.95n 0.146p *4 EN DS90LV032TM_EN 50.0m 0.95n 0.152p _5 ROUTC DS90LV032TM_ROUT 50.0m 0.95n 0.152p 6A RINC+ DS90LV032TM_RIN 50.0m 0.95n 0.146p 7 RINC- DS90LV032TM_RIN 50.0m 1.49n 0.306p 8 GND GND 50.0m 2.07n 0.429p 9 > From chang@nexen.com Mon Jul 21 09:18:14 1997 > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:16:56 -0400 (EDT) > From: Luke Chang > To: huq@rockie.nsc.com > Subject: Re: Pin numbering for BGA packages. > Cc: ibis@vhdl.org > > Hi Syed, > > Can a pin name start with any character, such as _, !, @, #, $, 5, 6, *, and &, > or does it have to start with a letter (a-z, A-Z)? > > Luke Chang > Fujitsu Nexion, Inc. > Acton, MA > > > ----- Begin Included Message ----- > > >From owner-ibis@server.vhdl.org Mon Jul 21 12:12:31 1997 > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 97 08:54:35 PDT > From: huq@rockie.nsc.com (Syed Huq) > To: ibis@vhdl.org, eitan@galileo.co.il > Subject: Re: Pin numbering for BGA packages. > Content-Length: 1293 > > Eitan, > > The IBIS standard states that the [Pin] field can have 5 characters > Max. So you can either use numbers or letters or combination of both > not to exceed 5 characters. > > Regards, > Syed > National Semiconductor Corp. > > > From owner-ibis@server.vhdl.org Sun Jul 20 08:37:03 1997 > > Comments: Authenticated sender is > > From: "Eitan Medina" > > Organization: Galileo Technology Ltd. > > To: ibis@vhdl.org > > Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 16:07:04 +0200 > > Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset=US-ASCII> > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > > Subject: Pin numbering for BGA packages. > > X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) > > > > Hi, > > > > I have a device packaged in BGA package. > > In these packages the pins are not numbered from 1 to 208 (or whatever), > > but in Ball# (A1,A2,...C1,C2,C3...). > > > > IBIS ver 2.1 does not say anything on this. > > > > Is it legal to place Ball# instead of pin# ? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Eitan Medina > > Email: eitan@galileo.co.il > > Galileo Technology Ltd. > > 15 Geron st. > > P.O.Box 2786 > > Yehud 56217 > > ISRAEL > > Tel: +972-3-6320220 > > Fax: +972-3-6320221 > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > * check out our new web site: http://www.GalileoT.com * > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > > > > ----- End Included Message ----- > > From owner-ibis Mon Jul 21 11:58:16 1997 Received: from montana.nwlink.com (kellee@montana.nwlink.com [199.242.23.13]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA08539 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kellee@localhost) by montana.nwlink.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA17143; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970721115715.006c89c0@mail.nwlink.com> X-Sender: kellee@mail.nwlink.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:57:16 -0700 To: ibis@vhdl.org From: Kellee Crisafulli Subject: Re: Pin numbering for BGA packages. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Luke, At 12:16 PM 7/21/97 -0400, you wrote: >Can a pin name start with any character, such as _, !, @, #, $, 5, 6, *, and &, >or does it have to start with a letter (a-z, A-Z)? Pin names can start with numbers and A-Z. Using other characters is likely to be problematic given the number of IBIS translators out there. I would recommend against it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Have a great day... Kellee Crisafulli at HyperLynx kellee@hyperlynx.com http://www.hyperlynx.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ibis Mon Jul 21 14:20:41 1997 Received: from dub-img-10.compuserve.com (dub-img-10.compuserve.com [149.174.206.140]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA11076 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dub-img-10.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.2) id RAA19130 for ibis@vhdl.org; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:17:26 -0400 From: "Tedd K. Stickel" Subject: unsubscribe To: "ibis@vhdl.org" Message-ID: <199707211717_MC2-1B4F-534@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by server.vhdl.org id OAA11077 unsubscribe From owner-ibis Thu Jul 24 15:43:13 1997 Received: from chipx.com (michelle.chipexpress.com [206.86.152.158]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA19439 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by chipx.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA02558; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:31:51 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:31:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Hermanto Yang X-Sender: hermanto@michelle To: ibis@vhdl.org Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII please unsubscribe me from this mailing list thanks From owner-ibis Sun Jul 27 08:50:24 1997 Received: from sa.infonet.com (sa.infonet.com [192.157.130.21]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id IAA17194 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 1997 08:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from m400@localhost) by sa.infonet.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA24804 for ibis@vhdl.org; Sun, 27 Jul 1997 15:48:33 GMT Date: 27 Jul 97 17:32 GMT X400-Trace: us*infonet*powermail; Arrival 27 Jul 97 17:32 GMT Action: Relayed X400-Trace: us*infonet*ccmail88; Arrival 27 Jul 97 17:32 GMT Action: Relayed X400-Trace: us*infonet*; Arrival 27 Jul 97 15:48 GMT Action: Relayed Priority: normal P1-Message-ID: us*infonet*powermail;0870018510/0967702050/1 Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text P1-Recipients: ibis@vhdl.org From: psd To: ibis@vhdl.org Message-ID: <@x400gw.infonet.com> Subject: Some questions Dear Sir. I have read some documents on the IBIS from the internet and I have some questions to ask: 1- In the simulator you have two curves one for the Pull-up, Pull-down and the other for the Clamp diodes, these two curves are on the same pin I mean you can not get each of them individually so how can you check these curves with the actual Lab measurements. ? 2- When You made these measurements in the LAB ,if you have the IC pin always high when you apply the VCC to that pin, how can you vary the voltage to measure the current variations? 3- Are you sure that the voltage change between -Vcc to 2Vcc will not harm the IC pin?? 4- These IC characteristics (IV ,Ramp...) is measured on the pins when all the IC pins are free so are these C/S will not change when the IC is connected inside the circuit or some pins within the IC itself is connected to another pins to the same IC ?? Thanks for your cooperation. Hany Gad. From owner-ibis Sun Jul 27 21:40:39 1997 Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id VAA28069 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibm-customer (ppp-206-171-248-81.vntrcs.pacbell.net [206.171.248.81]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.5/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id VAA26421; Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33DC24C0.413A@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:49:04 -0700 From: Jon Powell Reply-To: jonp@pacbell.net Organization: Viewlogic Consulting Services X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-PBWG (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: psd CC: ibis@vhdl.org Subject: Re: Some questions References: <@x400gw.infonet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit psd wrote: > > > Dear Sir. > > I have read some documents on the IBIS from the internet and I have > some questions to ask: > > 1- In the simulator you have two curves one for the Pull-up, Pull-down > and the other for the Clamp diodes, these two curves are on the same > pin I mean you can not get each of them individually so how can you > check these curves with the actual Lab measurements. ? There are some inherent difficulties trying to make IBIS models from physical measurement. If you can't probe inside the chip to control or cut out things (which is VERY expensive) then you have to make some assumptions about how transistors work and extract your data from that. > > 2- When You made these measurements in the LAB ,if you have the IC pin > always high when you apply the VCC to that pin, how can you vary the > voltage to measure the current variations? You are varying the voltage at the input. A programmable voltage source, CURRENT LIMITED, works good. > > 3- Are you sure that the voltage change between -Vcc to 2Vcc will not > harm the IC pin?? It will melt it to slag. I recommend you stop your sweep very quickly when the overshoot diodes cut on and LIMIT YOUR CURRENT to around 300ma. > > 4- These IC characteristics (IV ,Ramp...) is measured on the pins when > all the IC pins are free so are these C/S will not change when the IC > is connected inside the circuit or some pins within the IC itself is > connected to another pins to the same IC ?? Sorry, I don't follow this. If your are asking, "can the package parasitics mask the AC behavior of the part during transition measurement?" the answer is "yes". This is why I usually recommend that people make models either from high quality SPICE like simulations (which presumably come from good measurements made at the factory) or from raw data generated by the chip manufacturer. Special Note: There are people out there making good models from measurement (I may even be one of them) but it is very expensive and takes a lot of set up time, measurement know-how, and spare parts (for when you slag them). > > > Thanks for your cooperation. > Hany Gad. Your Welcome, Jon Powell Senior Scientist, Viewlogic Systems Consulting services (formally of the Quad Design group) From owner-ibis Mon Jul 28 05:45:37 1997 Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id FAA05631 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us8rmc.bb.dec.com (us8rmc.bb.dec.com [16.53.0.44]) by mail13.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.5/1.0/WV) with SMTP id IAA05662; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wrksys.enet by us8rmc.bb.dec.com (5.65/rmc-17Jan97) id AA20983; Mon, 28 Jul 97 08:32:53 -0400 Message-Id: <9707281232.AA20983@us8rmc.bb.dec.com> Received: from wrksys.enet; by us8rmc.enet; Mon, 28 Jul 97 08:37:28 EDT Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 08:37:28 EDT From: Andy Ingraham To: psd@powermail.intouch.com Cc: ibis@vhdl.org, ingraham@wrksys.ENET.dec.com Apparently-To: ibis@vhdl.org, psd@powermail.intouch.com Subject: Re: Some questions Hany Gad asks: > 1- In the simulator you have two curves one for the Pull-up, Pull-down > and the other for the Clamp diodes, these two curves are on the same > pin I mean you can not get each of them individually so how can you > check these curves with the actual Lab measurements. ? The IBIS spec provides these four sets of curves for full flexibility, but there are situations where not all four are either measurable, or necessary. In that case, one or more of the curves are zero. For an I/O (bidirectional or tri-stateable) pin, you can measure the clamp curves when the pin is in the OFF state. Then measure the characteristics in the HIGH and LOW states, and subtract the OFF state curves to arrive at the Pull-up and Pull-down curves. > 2- When You made these measurements in the LAB ,if you have the IC pin > always high when you apply the VCC to that pin, how can you vary the > voltage to measure the current variations? Why would you apply VCC to that pin? Is this a power pin, or a signal pin? I/V curves are needed for signal pins, not power pins. If your signal pin always drives high (to VCC), then just connect a variable voltage source to it and measure the current vs. voltage. If this is a signal input pin that is "always" pulled high when the IC is used, then you can either skip it (on the assumption that it "never" needs to be simulated), or treat it just like any other input pin (i.e., sweep its voltage and measure the current). Remember that IBIS models show the analog behavior of signal pins without regard to their purpose or whether the chip works when a pin is brought low or high. > 3- Are you sure that the voltage change between -Vcc to 2Vcc will not > harm the IC pin?? It may. But that's not the point (of IBIS modeling). The point is to provide expected I/V curves for what the current would be if the voltage on a pin momentarily reached these voltages. If you can, quickly sweep the voltage and gather data without killing the chip. Sweeping the voltage quickly reduces the chances of damaging the chip. It also better mimics what happens when an overshoot or undershoot signal hits the IC pin, which usually don't last more than a few nanoseconds. DC measurements generally are not a good idea. But not every point in the IBIS curves need to be measured. If you can only measure from -2V to Vcc+2V before something strange starts happening in your IC, then take just the good data and extrapolate it to the full -Vcc to 2Vcc range. Regards, Andy