From owner-ibis Wed Feb 10 13:41:38 1999 Received: from mail.hyperlynx.com (root@mail.hyperlynx.com [209.20.148.70]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA26566 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:41:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from tensor ([192.168.148.75]) by mail.hyperlynx.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA26964 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:36:23 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990210133915.00a8f2c0@mail.nwlink.com> X-Sender: mbflora@mail.nwlink.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:39:15 -0100 To: ibis@eda.org From: Matthew Flora Subject: IBIS Summit Meeting Minutes 1 Feb 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" DATE: 2/10/99 SUBJECT: 2/1/99 EIA IBIS Summit Meeting Minutes VOTING MEMBERS AND 1999 PARTICIPANTS LIST: AMP (Martin Freedman) Applied Simulation Technology Raj Raghuram*, Norio Matsui* Cadence Design Mike LaBonte Cisco Systems Syed Huq* Compaq Bob Haller*, Steve Coe*, Shafir Rahman*, Maher Elasad* Cypress (Rajesh Manapat) H.A.S. Electronics (Haruny Said) Hewlett Packard (EEsof, etc.) Paul Gregory*, Henry Wu* High Design Technology (Razvan Ene) HyperLynx Matthew Flora*, Kellee Crisafulli* Incases Olaf Rethmeier Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Frank Kern, Martin Chang, Dave Moxley, Kerry Nelson, Jeff Day, Richard Mellitz*, Peter Liou* LSI Logic (Symbios Logic) Scott King* Mentor Graphics Bob Ross*, Mohamed Mahmoud* Mitsubishi (Tam Cao) Motorola (Ron Werner) National Semiconductor Milt Schwartz* North East Systems Associates Edward Sayre*, Michael Baxter*, Kathy Breda* NEC (Hiroshi Matsumoto) Quantic EMC (Mike Ventham) Texas Instruments (Jean-Claude Perrin), Shankar Balasubramaniah*, Ramzi Ammar* Thomson-CSF (Jean Lebrun) Viewlogic Chris Rokusek, Guy de Burgh*, (Jon Powell) VeriBest Ian Dodd* VLSI Technology D.C. Sessions* Zuken-Redac (John Berrie) OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1999: 3Dfx Interactive Ken Wu* Actel Corporation Silvia Montoya* Applied Microelectronics Brian Sanderson* Avanti Nik Bannov* Bogatin Enterprise Eric Bogatin* EIA Patti Rusher EMC Corporation Fabrizio Zanella* IBM Greg Edlund*, Michael Cohen, Praven Patel* Fairchild Semiconductor Peter LaFlamme*, Craig Klem* FCI John Ellis* Litton Systems Robert Bremer* Molex Incorporated Gus Panella* Rockwell Collins Susan Tweeton*, Ron Hau* Samsung Jung-Gun Byun*, Cheol-Seung Choi* Siemens AG Bernhard Unger* Signals & Systems Engineering Tom Hawkins* SiQual Scott McMorrow* StorageTek Nick Krull* Sun Microsystems Victor Chang* Teradyne Mikhail Khusid* Time Domain Analysis Systems Dima Smolyansky Xilinx Susan Wu* (Unaffiliatied, Retired) Bruce Wenniger* In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses. Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets. Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as follows: Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode February 19, 1999 (916) 356-9200 4-2245000 7252452 Tuesday, March 9, 1999 IBIS Summit Meeting - No Teleconference All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas out 7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode. NOTE: "AR" = Action Required. -------------------------------- MINUTES ----------------------------------- IBIS SUMMIT MEETING The IBIS Summit Meeting was held at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, California. About 52 people representing 35 organizations participated in the meeting. These minutes just briefly note some of the meeting's content and some of its discussions. Most of the presentations and related documents are available on the World Wide Web at: http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/summits/feb99 INTRODUCTIONS AND BUSINESS - Bob Ross (Mentor Graphics) Bob Ross opened the IBIS meeting by introducing the officers and then having having the participants introduce themselves. Bob thanked Milt Schwartz of National Semiconductor for handling the local arrangements and copying of presentations, and thanked National Semiconductor for hosting the buffet luncheon. Bob also thanked Jon Powell for arranging the booth and company logo placards (some of which were picked up at the meeting). Bob thanked the Accuracy Committee for providing the demo at the booth. Finally Bob thanked the DesignCon99 organization for providing the meeting room, the refreshments, the IBIS meeting room sign, the DesignCon99 booth, and publicity (a full page advertisement) in the DesignCon99 brochure. The EIA IBIS Open Forum is an associate sponsor of DesignCon99. Later Bob surveyed the participants and found that the semiconductor, EDA, and user sectors were all well represented. OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES Bob Ross called for Ad Hoc presentations and discussion topics. The following topics were added and covered during the meeting: Kellee Crisafulli - Flight Time Calculations in IBIS Simulations (Covered by Stephen Peters) Kellee Crisafulli - Who Supports the EBD Format? IBIS USER'S GROUP TELECONFERENCE MEETING Bob Ross indicated that there was interest by the IBIS User's Group in holding regular teleconference meetings on weeks that the IBIS Open Forum does not hold meetings. Bob indicated that Mentor Graphics is willing to provide a bridge for such meetings. [A meeting has been set up for Friday, February 26, 1999. More details will be announced later.] PROGRAM NOTES FOLLOW (Scheduled and Ad Hoc Presentations): OVERVIEW, REVIEW OF SUMMIT AGENDA - Bob Ross, Mentor Graphics Bob Ross started the main meeting by giving a brief overview of what has occurred during the last year. IBIS Version 3.2 was ratified and will be forwarded for ANSI/EIA-656A ratification. The ibischk3.2 parser is nearly completed, but still needs some refinements. IBIS Version 2.1 is moving forward, but still pending ratification as IEC 62014-1. Bob noted that over 350 people are on the IBIS reflectors. There are 26 member companies and over 70 organizations and over 170 people participated in IBIS meetings in 1998. Five face-to-face Summits were held. Bob also noted that he knew of over 30 different companies which provide web sites where IBIS models can be requested or downloaded. Other companies provide IBIS models directly. Bob stated that the meeting presentations cover Accuracy and Validation, a review of IBIS Version 3.2 features, and then move on to topics for potential future IBIS extensions. These include future requirements, a timing extension, IMIC discussion, and the connector modeling proposal. Bob concluded by mentioning his 5 C's for model Validation: Correct, Compliant, Complete, Checked, and Compared. Checked covers the syntax check, graphical viewing, visual inspection, and loading the model into a simulator. Later Greg Edlund suggested using Correlated as discussed in the Accuracy Specification rather than Compared . IBIS USER'S GROUP STATUS Ed Sayre, North East Systems Associates (NESA) Ed Sayre briefly reviewed the history of the User's group and sited two accomplishments of the IBIS User's Group: The Accuracy Specification and the Connector Model Specification. Ed stated that a 1999 goal was to produce an IBIS tutorial. He was willing to head the effort, but asked for volunteers to assist in preparing the material. Ed envisioned downloadable lesson blocks on IBIS and on how to use IBIS models. A number of items were discussed. Kellee Crisafulli mentioned that there should be no host preference. All EDA vendors could be represented in the material. Milt Schwartz stated that there should also be some basic material such as what typical I/O plots should look like. Susan Tweeton stated that how to produce ASIC models needed to be covered. Ed and D.C. Sessions noted that students in Universities get no exposure to IBIS. Kellee noted that a typical student project costs about $18,000 per student. THE IBIS ACCURACY SPECIFICATION: STATUS AND DIRECTION - Greg Edlund, IBM Greg Edlund supplied Revision 1.1 of a Draft Accuracy Specification and also an IBIS Accuracy Trailer draft. In the presentation Greg noted that Correlation was the cornerstone of the IBIS Accuracy Specification. Greg defined a figure of merit relationship for an overlay metric between laboratory measurements and simulation. The Specification should be a reference document for purchasing semiconductor parts. It is not a pass-fail standard for judging accuracy. It needs to be user driven and flexible. The current status of the document is to support Version 1.1 IBIS features. A test board has been developed, and its design along with other documents are uploaded on the http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/accuracy site. Revision 1.2 of the Specification will fold in V/T tables. The goal is to pursue EIA approval of Revision 1.2. Greg thanked the contributors to the document and outlined the contents. He discussed the proposed test structures and then showed examples of the envelope and correlation metrics. Four correlation levels are proposed in the document, but only three will be proposed in the future version based on the availability of the component sample. The proposed levels are 1: Random, 2: Known Typical, and 3: Known Typical, Fast and Slow. In response to comments that the correlation needs to factor out possible simulator differences, a judiciously chosen golden waveform will be proposed. It might be based on a SPICE reference simulation of the SPICE model from which the IBIS model was derived. Such a golden waveform might require an IBIS extension to include the test load structure. This led to a number of questions and discussions. The golden waveform was further discussed by Ed Sayre, Stephen Peters and Paul Gregory. It could be a correlation reference for EDA tools. Scott King mentioned that in doing ASIC models, the package information was introduced separately based on the ASIC package. Scott McMorrow cited the importance of the package information in current devices, yet indicated that it is difficult to extract. D.C. Sessions cautioned against sneaking in benchmarks. Stephen stated that the model documentation could be used as a confidence factor. Susan Tweeton cautioned that the model documentation should not be mis-used as an excuse to pitch the EDA tool. In response to the criticism that the specification will raise the model cost and cause too much work, Greg noted that too many simulation failures will create the crisis that forces semiconductor vendors to document their correlations. Greg concluded by asking for more volunteers. A bi-monthly teleconference call will be initiated. The correlation section will be revised. The group will propose a BIRD to support Golden Waveforms. The plan is to forward the updated document for EIA approval. Also, more research is needed for test loads to cover enhancements beyond IBIS Version 1.1 functionality. PRACTICAL USE OF IBIS MODELS AND ACCURACY STUDIES - Fabrizio Zanella, EMC Corporation Fabrizio Zanella presented some results comparing measurements with simulations using IBIS models and also comparing SPICE model and IBIS model simulations. Fabrizio stated the advantages of using IBIS models for board level simulation: The board file can be imported directly without recreating the topology, and IBIS models are easy to use, fast and accurate for board level simulations. Fabrizio showed some correlation results. One important result was to show equivalent ring back. Several comments were made regarding the bandwidth of of the test equipment and probe parasitics and whether the device was really typical to explain some differences. Fabrizio felt that for off-board analysis, SPICE simulation was a better option, especially for high speed clock nets, since connector models are available and lossy lines can be handled. He showed some measurements and SPICE simulation correlation. In addition, Fabrizio showed some correlation of a TTL test case with IBIS simulation using SPICE, and direct SPICE model simulation. There were some differences with overshoot and pulse widths. Some of this was discussed and questions were raised. For example, one SPICE simulation indicated that perhaps a clamping diode was not in the SPICE buffer model. The pulses did not overlay because the IBIS model may have chosen a different starting reference for rising and falling edges. Even so, Fabrizio concluded that IBIS model simulation did yield accurate results compared to laboratory data and produced similar results to SPICE simulations. FLIGHT TIME CALCULATIONS IN IBIS SIMULATIONS (Ad Hoc Presentation) - Stephen Peters, Intel Corporation Stephen Peters prepared some hand-drawn foils in response to the new agenda item. Stephen defined flight time as a way to account for the change in a device's propagation delay due to changes in device loading. He illustrated this by showing that the maximum clock period was calculated as the summation of propagation delay, net delay and setup time: Tpd + Tdelay + Tsetup. The timing test load (such as 500 ohms and 50 pF) along with Vmeas was used as a reference to extract the internal delay information, and its loading effect needed to be factored out for actual timing simulations. VALIDATION OF IBIS BASED TWO WAVEFORM MODELS - Bernhard Unger, Siemens AG Bernhard Unger presented some results of a study on two-waveform based IBIS models generated using 18 ohms, 50 ohms and 100 ohms as the fixture loads. The 18 ohm fixture was selected to produce about one-half the Vcc swing. Bernhard conducted the test using the Fairchild CMOS driver VCX16244 HSPICE model supplied by Peter LaFlamme as a reference and from which the IBIS model (also supplied by Peter LaFlamme) was generated. Four driver conditions were tested: (1) a 50 ohm, 1 ns transmission line loaded with 5 pF, (2) a lumped 500 ohm parallel 30 pF load, (3) a distributed 66 ohm transmission line load, (4) and a DIMM module 66 ohm transmission line load. The simulations were conducted with and without the Vdd/Vss package model parasitics. The simulations were done using two-waveform extracted Kpur(t), Kpdr(t), Kpuf(t) and Kpdf(t) table multipliers according to the SPICE implemented algorithm cited in previous presentations. Bernhard showed a number of overlaying comparisons and concluded that the 50 ohm fixture load provided a good compromise. The 18 ohm fixture load provided better correlation for the DIMM module test case since the effective impedance seen by the buffer was about 25 ohms. When the Vdd/Vss package effects were included, the results were not as well correlated. Bernhard concluded with the following points: (1) Two waveform behavioral model simulations provide excellent agreement with transistor based simulations if the IBIS V/T-table loading conditions are comparable with the simulation conditions and the Vdd/Vss parasitics are of minor influence. (2) 50 ohm V/T-table loading conditions seem to be a good compromise for most purposes. (3) IBIS models with different R_fixture loadings are a real need if timing and noise are very critical issues. (4) Vdd/Vss package parasitics strongly influence the simulation results with increasing transition times. As present, this feedback is not included in the IBIS model. Furthermore, Bernhard raised these questions: (1) Is there a set of IBIS V/T-table loading R_fixture loading conditions (four or five) that cover the range of application loading conditions for a given device? (2) What method determines the IBIS V/T-table R_fixture loading conditions to give the best fit with simulation loading conditions? (3) What are the possibilities to implement feedback caused by the Vdd/Vss package parasitics into IBIS behavioral models? D.C. Sessions commented that the load selection and results may be impacted by internal Miller capacitance in the output stage. LUNCH BREAK A delicious buffet luncheon was hosted by National Semiconductor. IBIS VERSION 3.2 OVERVIEW - Stephen Peters, Intel Stephen Peters gave an overview of the IBIS Version 3.2 extensions beyond IBIS Version 2.1. Version 3.2 was ratified by the IBIS Open Forum at the January, 1999 teleconference meeting and will be forwarded for ANSI/EIA-656A ratification. The golden parser is uploaded (it still needs some fixes). As background, Stephen stated that IBIS Version 2.1 supported I/V tables and V/T tables. It provided initially for GTL plus technology. However, it was limited in describing passive elements, it did not provide adequate multi-stage I/O buffer models and cartridge packaging technology, and lumped L/R/C package models were a practical limitation. Stephen gave an overview and elaborated (showing related keywords) upon four areas of IBIS Version 3.2 enhancements: (1) Support for additional device types - passive (2-pin) devices, terminators, bus switches (2) Extended model specs and simulation hooks - ringback and hysteresis specs, model selectors (3) Support for advanced driver/receiver technology - multi-staged outputs, bus hold, dynamic clamps (4) Enhanced package descriptions - transmission line package stubs, .ebd files. Stephen noted that the future enhancements include uncoupled and coupled connector models. The [Add Submodel] concept can be a path for future expansion since a submodel can be used for anything. There is consideration of a possible merger or incorporation of the IMIC specification. Kellee Crisafulli raised the question at this time regarding which EDA vendors support the .ebd format. Several vendors replied that several do provide support or will very shortly. IBIS FUTURES - Stephen Peters, Intel Stephen Peters continued the discussion by noting what IBIS does well. It handles CMOS/TTL/ECL technology and controlled rise time parts such as GTL. Bus hold is now available. The EBD and enhanced packages allow more complex paths - as long as coupling is not required. However, what is lacking is multiple buffer switching effects taking into account SSO effects due to pin to pin coupling and power/ground rail bounce. A lossy transmission line is needed. Perhaps it is time for the G matrix and/or a frequency dependent loss for .ebd and .pkg files. Non-ideal ground return paths need to be modeled in the next generation of simulators. Ed Sayre stated that impedance of the ground plane is a big problem, subject to possible university work. Stephen continued that the solution to these are important because of very fast processor buses and source synchronous signaling. The timing budgets are tight and the second order effects are now dominant. [Pin Mapping] is a start, but not complete. Pin to pin coupling is almost there, but needs improvement. A number of participants discussed aspects of physical databases, SPICE models and SSO effects. Stephen concluded that the key to SSO modeling is to make the buffer power and ground nodes available. IMIC is interesting, but does not use the standard I/V and V/T description of the buffer. Stephen also noted that the [Add Submodel] keyword has expansion possibilities for a model consisting of a group of buffers and for embedding package descriptions. VALIDATION OF EIAJ IMIC MODELS - Raj Raghuram, Applied Simulation Technology Raj Raghuram gave the first presentation of a two part presentation on IMIC. Raj introduced IMIC by noting that it was targeted for signal integrity, power integrity and EMI analysis. Such analysis requires the device model, the signal trace model and the ground/power plane model. The inner core of the IMIC model is a multi-dimensional table format as an extension to Berkeley Spice. Such tables can be generated by Spice2IMIC convertors. IBIS models can be generated from IMIC models. Raj described the validation process for both the Motorola 74LCX245 buffer and the Texas Instruments 74CBT16233 switch. Raj substituted the derived IMIC model tables for the process models. All the results showed nearly overlaying correlation with the original SPICE models. Raj also gave some details on making IMIC models. Several SPICEs support DC sweeps for printing three-dimensional Voltage/Current and Voltage/ Capacitance table information. RD, RS, and RSH should be set to zero. If a more generic SPICE is used, an AC analysis is needed at each point to extract the capacitances. Stephen Peters questioned how fast the IMIC model performs. Raj estimated that it was about twice as fast as SPICE, but such an estimate may be impacted by the table resolution. Scott McMorrow suggested a simplified and reduced IMIC model. Arpad Muranyi raised the concern that even though the process information is protected by using the table transistor model, the structural information, which also can be proprietary, is revealed. Report ON EIAJ IMIC STANDARD - Norio Matsui, Applied Simulation Technology Norio Matsui continued the IMIC presentation. He added that the Hitachi ALVCH16244 was also used for validation studies. Norio elaborated that work was being done for advanced package models for up to 2000 pin BGAs, QFP and CSP configurations. Package and Module descriptions need the free network descriptions for coupling effects, forks and loops, and frequency dependency. Norio noted that the I/O Model Project Group is currently working on the EMI Model Standard. Return current paths and are considered along with ground plane effects. Local ground planes reduce EMI. Some of the details in the presentation were not covered due to time limitations. However, Norio noted that one EDA vendor supports the IMIC format, and another is expected to follow. A new EIAJ subcommittee will be formed to consider EMI/EMC modeling for non-ICs and system level applications. Norio positioned the IBIS and IMIC committee activities and also considered the relative strengths and weaknesses of each format. Norio concluded that he would like to see a merger of activities through a subset approach: IMIC into IBIS or IBIS into IMIC. The EIAJ I/O Modeling Project Group has formed a subgroup to investigate IBIS and IMIC merger. The formal standardization process of IMIC is currently being postponed. INPUT THRESHOLD MODELING - D.C. Sessions (VLSI Technology) Note, this description is adapted from the description given for a similar presentation given at the December 7, 1998 IBIS Summit Meeting. D.C. Sessions noted that as a result of tighter timing margins, the old input threshold limits such as Vinh = 2.0 V and Vinl = 0.8 V are becoming too conservative to be practical. Input signals can easily have a ledge in the region between Vinh and Vinl. The actual thresholds are much tighter. Also JEDEC JC-16.2 is standardizing on closer threshold limits for newer technologies. D.C. noted that for many technologies, the Input thresholds were related to the power supply voltage. So D.C. suggested a linear adjustment factor that is related to the rail to determine more accurate thresholds. D.C. also noted that the timing delay was a function of how much the input signal went over the first threshold. D.C. showed some time shifted responses as a function of threshold overvoltage from 25 mV to about 1.6 V. The delays shrank from about 3 ns to 300 ps. For this particular simulation, D.C. fit the data to a 2/3rds power relationship: t = to + K/(Vin - Vth)**(2/3) D.C. suggested a timing table could be proposed for IBIS to capture this input resolution. D.C. provided formats at the meeting for such a timing table using the keywords [Rising Delay] and [Falling Delay]. The adjustments to the delay would be made relative to the specification thresholds. The 0 V value has 0 seconds of adjustments. These tables contain typ, min, and max columns. To summarize, D.C. presented the following draft proposal: 1) Threshold Voltage "Add a first-order term to the existing Vin specs. DC trip point is defined as the specified value at the specified supply voltage plus (the new value) times the difference in supply voltage. Alternately, add a table. In effect, turn the current and scaler values into lists." 2) Timing "In keeping with IBIS's preferred use of observable properties, add an [input_delay] table giving relative delay for input voltages relative to the specified thresholds. Thus, if Vinl is 800 mV under some condition, the table entry at 200 mV is the added delay for signals at 1000 mV. Simulator providers would be free to innovate with respect to dynamic algorithms for complex input waveforms. Some discussion occurred. Arpad Muranyi stated that an equation might be considered instead of tables. Scott McMorrow thought more tables might be needed for multiple edge rates. IBIS CONNECTOR MODEL STATUS - Kellee Crisafulli, HyperLynx Kellee Crisafulli along with Gus Panella gave a presentation. Kellee supplied CDs containing the presentation, the draft documents, and many examples of implementation. The presentation and other documents are planned to be uploaded. Kellee introduced the topic by naming the simulator vendors, connector vendors and end users who had participated in the development of the proposed specification. He presented the motivation related to what is missing in IBIS. This includes not having a method for modeling cascaded or tee methods for coupled matrices. Also, the current method does not allow for a "swath" simplification method. Currently the concepts are determined, and the specification, examples, and slide presentation are created. The CD contains this information and more. Kellee noted that the familiar keywords of the IC and .pkg specification are used for header information and defining types of matrices. The Connector Specification is intended to be a stand-alone specification. It will include pictures (JPEG), Stub matrices, Cascaded matrices, a swath matrix, and a Diagonal_matrix type. Changes include pin naming methods for connectors, the .ibiscnn file name extension naming convention, and relaxed line width restrictions. In response to potential questions, Kellee stated that the stand-alone document will be smaller and contain only the keywords needed for the connector models. The new Diagonal_matrix reduces the number of lines for the single line, uncoupled models versus a Banded_matrix of Bandwidth 0. Kellee and Gus showed some samples of the Connector Matrix syntax. Matrix sections are named. The Swath was defined as a small matrix used to define a much larger matrix. The syntax allows for defining how to terminate some end columns when the swath is used. For the left-hand and right-hand columns, the Swath matrix overlaps by a designated number of columns, and these overlap columns are terminated in a designated impedance. Other examples of matrix construction were presented for Stub matrices, and for the construction of the complete connector model. The short term goal is to transfer the Specification to the IBIS archive and solicit feedback from the IBIS Open Forum. The goal is to adopt the .ibiscnn as a revision to IBIS. The longer term goal is to create a parser for syntax checking. Also the accuracy of the .ibiscnn model needs to be checked by comparing it with SPICE simulations. Features may be added to the swath method. Lossy models need to be added along with support for .ebd capabilities. Unbalanced and balanced style SPICE connector models were shown. The comparison should be against the balanced type model for reflections, delay, crosstalk and risetime degradation. Kellee concluded by thanking Gus Panella for his time and the other participants, EMC for the phone bridge, and HyperLynx for the specification enhancements and CD-ROMs. Many points were discussed during and after the presentation. Arpad Muranyi suggested using a Conductance Matrix for losses. The method of Swath overlap was clarified. The reason is to approximate the edge effects. How to handle the reference ground was discussed. Some preferred no reference ground. Stephen Peters asked about pad capacitances and frequency limits. After some discussion Stephen concluded that it is reasonable for EDA tools to handle the pad capacitances from the physical design. The pin boundary would stop at the board surface. One new aspect is that unmated models would be supported. Two unmated models do not produce a mated model. Raj Raghuram questioned whether the matrices are Maxwell. He pointed out that the diagonal matrix is not Maxwell. The response was that the matrices for coupled sections are Maxwell. Uncoupled matrices are referenced implicitly to the global ground. The main action item is for the IBIS committee to review the proposal and provide feedback. CONCLUSION Bob Ross concluded the meeting by noting that the next teleconference meeting was scheduled for Friday, February 19, 1999. The Tekronix IPA 510 software proposal would be discussed. Also, the following meeting would be an IBIS Summit Meeting in Munich, Germany on March 9, 1999 along with the DATE99 conference. Bob again thanked the participants and presenters for contributions. NEXT MEETING: The next teleconference meeting will be on Friday, February 19, 1999 from 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM. The Tektronix IPA 510 proposal will be discussed and voted upon. ============================================================================== NOTES IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897 bob_ross@mentorg.com Modeling Engineer, Interconnectix BU of Mentor Graphics 8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070 VICE CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515 sjpeters@ichips.intel.com Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation M/S JF1-56 2111 NE 25th Ave. Hillsboro, Oregon 97124-5961 SECRETARY: Matthew Flora (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008 mbflora@hyperlynx.com Senior Engineer, HyperLynx, Inc. 17641 NE 67th Court Redmond, WA 98052 LIBRARIAN: Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259 jonp@qdt.com Senior Scientist, Viewlogic (formerly Quad Design) 1385 Del Norte Rd., Camarillo, CA 93010 This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA Manual of Organization and Procedure. The following e-mail addresses are used: ibis-request@eda.org To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector (ibis@eda.org), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector (ibis-users@eda.org) or both. State your request. ibis-info@eda.org To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS Open Forum as a full Member. ibis@eda.org To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS technical enhancements. Job posting information is not permitted. ibis-users@eda.org To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and general user concerns. Job posting information is not permitted. ibischk-bug@eda.org To report ibischk2 parser bugs. The Bug Report Form Resides on eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs. To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt, /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, & /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt respectively. Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the Electronic Information Group under: http://www.eia.org Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous discussions and results. You can get on via FTP anonymous. ============================================================================== From owner-ibis Thu Feb 11 14:58:43 1999 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA01614; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:58:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from em-wv03.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id OAA21065; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:53:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from bob by em-wv03.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40R) id OAA11333; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:53:00 -0800 (PST) From: bob_ross@mentorg.com (Bob Ross) Received: by bob (4.1/CF5.23L) id AA23637; Thu, 11 Feb 99 14:52:59 PST Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 14:52:59 PST Message-Id: <9902112252.AA23637@bob> To: ibis-users@eda.org, ibis@eda.org, si-list@silab.eng.sun.com Subject: EUROPEAN IBIS SUMMIT MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT To All: This is a second announcement of the second European IBIS Summit Meeting. Last year we had a very successful European IBIS Summit Meeting. This year we are holding again a meeting along with DATE99 on Tuesday, March 9, 1999. The purpose is to promote communication among users and developers of IBIS models in Europe. The meeting is open to everyone and will start with a Lunch at Noon to allow some attendees to arrive in Munich that morning. Below is some information on the IBIS Summit and some related events. You are invited to register and also to submit presentations. Best Regards Bob Ross Mentor Graphics E U R O P E A N I B I S S U M M I T M E E T I N G S E C O N D A N N O U N C E M E N T Time/Date: 12 PM - 6 PM, Tuesday, March 9, 1999 Location: ASTRON HOTEL/Neue Messe Eggenfeldener Strasse 100 Munich, Germany This is a hotel near the DATE99 Conference Content: Presentations and Discussions Purpose: Solicit and Exchange IBIS Model Related Information and Ideas. Sponsors: Mentor Graphics, INCASES DATE99 Show: DATE99 - March 9 - 12, 1999. The IBIS meeting is scheduled the day before the DATE99 trade show begins. Location: International Congress Center, Munich, Germany See www.date-conference.com for more information. PCB Symposium: An all day symposium is scheduled Thursday, March 11, 1999, on PCB design issues, on site at DATE99. BACKGROUND Last year we had a very successful European IBIS Summit Meeting. This year we plan to expand the scope to include: Submitted Presentations on IBIS Topics (See below) Less formal Ad Hoc Presentations and Discussions IBIS Questions and Answers Below is an invitation to register and also to submit presentations. CALL FOR PARTICIPANTS People involved in IBIS Model development, EDA tool development, and digital circuit design are invited to participate in the European IBIS Summit meeting. If you plan to participate, please register with the information below (deadline, February 26, 1999): Name: E-mail address: Company: Telephone: Send to: Karine Loudet (karine_loudet@mentor.com) +33 1 40 94 74 54 TENTATIVE AGENDA TOPICS TO DATE (More are Welcome): 12:00: LUNCH (Provided to all participants) 13:00 - 18:00 MEETING Current IBIS Activities and Issues Bob Ross, Mentor Graphics IBIS Version 3.2 Update Stephen Peters, Intel IBIS Future Requirements Stephen Peters, Intel Validation of IBIS Based Two Waveform Behavioral Models Bernhard Unger, Siemens AG (Possible Presentation on IBIS Library Development Topic) Siemens General Questions and Discussions - IBIS Interpretation - Future Requirements - Any other topic of interest Ad Hoc Presentations CALL FOR PRESENTATIONS We are seeking presentations from individuals who have IBIS experiences or issues. Some suggested subjects of interest are: IBIS Model Development Experiences Generating IBIS Models Validating IBIS Models Future IBIS Requirements EMC/EMI IBIS Issues Format of Presentation: Overhead Projections Time: 15-30 Minutes Electronic Archival: We request electronic versions so that the presentations can be archived and also made available to non-attendees. Formats used in the past have been text, Power Point, Word, Postscript, and Acrobat. Electronic presentations should be made available by February 26, 1999. Otherwise the presentor will be expected to provide 50 copies for distribution. If you plan a presentation, please supply Title: Presenter: E-mail address: Company: Telephone: Estimate Time: Send this to: Bob Ross (bob_ross@mentor.com) FOR FURTHER INFORMATION: Bob Ross, Chair, EIA/IBIS Open Forum Mentor Graphics 8005 S.W. Boeckman Road Wilsonville, Oregon 97070 USA (503) 685-0732 bob_ross@mentor.com From owner-ibis Fri Feb 12 13:40:16 1999 Received: from isis.vlsi.com (relayhost.vlsi.com [134.27.20.24]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA05285 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:40:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from smtp@localhost) by isis.vlsi.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA20789 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:34:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: isis.vlsi.com: smtp set sender to using -f Received: from (tem-pbx1.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.128.26]) by isis.vlsi.com via smap (V2.0) id xma020780; Fri, 12 Feb 99 13:34:09 -0800 Received: from vlsi.com (witsend.tempe.vlsi.com [134.27.133.12]) by tem-pbx1.tempe.vlsi.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2232.9) id ZHB45ZJ6; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:35:58 -0700 Sender: dsession@isis.vlsi.com Message-ID: <36C49E50.C95B654B@vlsi.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:34:08 -0700 From: "D. C. Sessions" Organization: VLSI Technology Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IBIS Mailing list Subject: JEDEC Gauntlet Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been hinting for a while that JEDEC had a standard in the queue that couldn't be modelled by IBIS 3.2 -- now I can point y'all to it. http://www.jedec.org/download/freeStd/jedec/jesd67.pdf The floor is open for suggestions. -- D. C. Sessions dc.sessions@vlsi.com From owner-ibis Fri Feb 12 14:50:28 1999 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA05492 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:50:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from em-wv03.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id OAA04395; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:44:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from bob by em-wv03.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40R) id OAA10122; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:44:46 -0800 (PST) From: bob_ross@mentorg.com (Bob Ross) Received: by bob (4.1/CF5.23L) id AA24353; Fri, 12 Feb 99 14:16:11 PST Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 14:16:11 PST Message-Id: <9902122216.AA24353@bob> To: ibis@eda.org Subject: IBIS AGENDA 2/19/99 IBIS Open Forum Meeting Agenda for 2/19/99 Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode (916) 356-9200 4-2245000 7252452 All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will Hobbs and give the Reservation Number and Passcode. 8:00 Check-In, Intros, Announcements Ross - Intros of New IBIS Participants, Meeting Quorum Ross - Membership Update and Treasurers Report Rusher - Review of Previous Meeting's Minutes (and ARs) Ross - Miscellany/Announcements All - Press & Web Page Updates Huq, All - New Models Available, Library Update Powell, All - Opens for New Issues All 8:15 Administrative and Project Discussions International/External Progress - IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 2.1) Rusher - pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits (IMIC) Raghuram/Ross - 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation Perrin - JEDEC JC-16.2 Modeling and Testing Sessions - JEDEC/IBIS Version 3.2 Incompatibility - IEEE P1537 Data Format Project Peters IBIS (East) Users Group Meetings Haller/Zanella/Edlund DesignCon99 February 1, 1999 IBIS Summit Review All - IBIS Meeting - IBIS Booth - DesignCon99 Presentations and Panels - Other DATE99 March 9, 1998 IBIS Summit Meeting Ross IBIS Version 3.2 Ross/Rusher - EIA Standard Preparations IBISCHK3 Version 3.2.2/ 3.2.3 Ross/Flora/Rokusek - Split off ibis_chk for Version 1.1? - Source, Executables Tektronix IPA510 Software Proposal Discussion Huq - Vote Cookbook Status Peters IBIS Model Review Committee Flora New Administrative Issues All 9:40 Technical Discussion Connector Proposal Review Flora/Crissafulli Accuracy Specification Review Edlund/Haller New Technical Issues All 9:50 Wrap Up and Next Meetings Plans Peters 9:55 Sign Off From owner-ibis Fri Feb 12 18:55:07 1999 Received: from mail.hyperlynx.com (root@mail.hyperlynx.com [209.20.148.70]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id SAA05929 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:55:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from Kellee98 ([192.168.148.110]) by mail.hyperlynx.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA20748; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:49:55 -0800 Message-Id: <199902130249.SAA20748@mail.hyperlynx.com> X-Sender: kellee@pop.nwlink.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:50:35 -0800 To: "D. C. Sessions" , IBIS Mailing list From: Kellee Crisafulli Subject: Re: JEDEC Gauntlet In-Reply-To: <36C49E50.C95B654B@vlsi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by server.eda.org id SAA05930 Hi all, At 02:34 PM 2/12/99 -0700, D. C. Sessions wrote: >I've been hinting for a while that JEDEC had a standard in >the queue that couldn't be modelled by IBIS 3.2 -- now I >can point y'all to it. > >http://www.jedec.org/download/freeStd/jedec/jesd67.pdf > >The floor is open for suggestions. It looks to me like "model selector" will handle everything except "Method 1" analog impedance control through an external resistor. Where Zout = N times Rexternal. We could certainly add a keyword to handle this. Best wishes... Kellee --------------------------------------------------------- Have a great day.... Kellee Crisafulli at HyperLynx SI,EMC,X-talk and IBIS tools for the Windows platform E-mail: web:   --------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ibis Tue Feb 16 07:34:09 1999 Received: from emcmail.lss.emc.com (emcmail.lss.emc.com [168.159.48.78]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id HAA14944 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 07:34:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from fishbowl02.emc.com (fishbowl02.lss.emc.com [168.159.48.62]) by emcmail.lss.emc.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA23820 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:27:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by fishbowl02.emc.com with VINES-ISMTP; Tue, 16 Feb 99 10:28:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 10:22:43 -0500 Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: From: "fabrizio zanella" Reply-To: Errors-to: Subject: IBIS switch models X-Incognito-SN: 1467 X-Incognito-Version: 4.11.23 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii At the IBIS Summit held at DesignCon 2 weeks ago, one of the presentations discussed IBIS version 3.2 enhancements. Asa part of IBIS v3.2, Quickswitches, FET switches, CBT switches can now be modeled in IBIS. I need to simulate boards which have switches, and in speaking to a semiconductor vendor, they will have IBIS switch models available as soon as a simulator can support the models. Does anyone know of a simulator which can support IBIS v3.2 models or when this feature will be available? Thank you and regards, Fabrizio Zanella EMC, Hardware Engineering fzanella@emc.com 508-435-2075, x4645 From owner-ibis Tue Feb 16 12:51:39 1999 Received: from hebe.or.intel.com (hebe.or.intel.com [134.134.248.4]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id MAA16341 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:51:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ichips-jf.jf.intel.com (ichips-jf.jf.intel.com [134.134.50.200]) by hebe.or.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.6 1998/11/24 22:10:56 iwep Exp iwep $) with ESMTP id MAA08431; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:56:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from xtg801.pdx.intel.com (xtg801.pdx.intel.com [134.134.114.35]) by ichips-jf.jf.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: internal.m4,v 1.2 1998/11/09 19:18:37 iwep Exp iwep $) with ESMTP id MAA28463; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:46:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from ichips.intel.com (loopback.pdx.intel.com [127.0.0.1]) by xtg801.pdx.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) with ESMTP id MAA06859; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:46:19 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199902162046.MAA06859@xtg801.pdx.intel.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0delta 6/3/97 To: Kellee Crisafulli cc: "D. C. Sessions" , IBIS Mailing list Subject: Re: JEDEC Gauntlet In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:50:35 PST." <199902130249.SAA20748@mail.hyperlynx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:46:18 -0800 From: Stephen Peters Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by server.eda.org id MAA16342 Kellie Wrote: > Hi all, > > At 02:34 PM 2/12/99 -0700, D. C. Sessions wrote: > >I've been hinting for a while that JEDEC had a standard in > >the queue that couldn't be modelled by IBIS 3.2 -- now I > >can point y'all to it. > > > >http://www.jedec.org/download/freeStd/jedec/jesd67.pdf > > > >The floor is open for suggestions. > > It looks to me like "model selector" will handle everything > except "Method 1" analog impedance control through an external > resistor. Where Zout = N times Rexternal. We could certainly > add a keyword to handle this. > > Best wishes... > Kellee > The Method 1 output impedance control could also be handled by [Model Selector] as well. Just create several different output models, each assuming some selected output impedence. I don't think that you would have to make very many models to cover a useful range. Anyways, my $.02 worth. regards, Stephen From owner-ibis Tue Feb 16 17:30:28 1999 Received: from gw-us1.philips.com (gw-us1.philips.com [205.167.14.34]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id RAA17223 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:30:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtprelay-us1.philips.com (localhost.philips.com [127.0.0.1]) by gw-us1.philips.com with ESMTP id UAA01290 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:24:57 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Todd.Andersen@abq.sc.philips.com) Received: from smtprelay-nam1.philips.com(130.140.196.208) by gw-us1.philips.com via mwrap (4.0a) id xma001288; Tue, 16 Feb 99 20:24:57 -0500 Received: from smtphub.sv.sc.philips.com (smtphub.sv.sc.philips.com [130.140.45.86]) by smtprelay-us1.philips.com (8.8.5/8.6.10-1.2.2m-970826) with ESMTP id UAA16433 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:24:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtphub.abq.sc.philips.com (smtphub.abq.sc.philips.com [130.140.3.9]) by smtphub.sv.sc.philips.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA23601 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:24:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sphp01.abq.sc.philips.com (root@sphp01.abq.sc.philips.com [130.140.12.101]) by smtphub.abq.sc.philips.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15908 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:24:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from abq.sc.philips.com (sphp44.abq.sc.philips.com [130.140.12.144]) by sphp01.abq.sc.philips.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15814 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:24:52 -0700 (MST) Sender: Todd.Andersen@abq.sc.philips.com Message-ID: <36CA1A62.1180A292@abq.sc.philips.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:24:51 -0700 From: Todd Andersen Organization: Philips Semiconductors -- PIC, Albuq NM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; U; HP-UX B.10.20 9000/770) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis users group Subject: unsubscribe tech notes. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will be going to Europe for a while and wish to unsubscribe the technical notes. Please notify me of meetings and send minutes if these can be done. I hope to make the Munich IBIS meeting in March. Todd Todd.Andersen@nym.sc.philips.com -- Todd Andersen Phone:505-822-7666 IC Modeling Engineer FAX: 505-822-7802 Standard Logic, ABQ Todd.Andersen@abq.sc.philips.com From owner-ibis Thu Feb 18 08:29:31 1999 Received: from smtp4.ny.us.ibm.COM (smtp4.ny.us.ibm.com [198.133.22.43]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id IAA24381; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:29:30 -0800 (PST) From: gedlund@us.ibm.com Received: from northrelay01.pok.ibm.com (northrelay01.pok.ibm.com [9.117.200.21]) by smtp4.ny.us.ibm.COM (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25522; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:24:52 -0500 Received: from D51MTA10.pok.ibm.com (d51mta10.pok.ibm.com [9.117.200.38]) by northrelay01.pok.ibm.com (8.8.7m1/NCO v1.8) with SMTP id LAA64060; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:23:37 -0500 Received: by D51MTA10.pok.ibm.com(Lotus SMTP MTA Internal build v4.6.2 (651.2 6-10-1998)) id 8525671C.005A0C1D ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:23:33 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: IBMUS To: ibis@vhdl.org, ibis-users@vhdl.org, si-list@silab.eng.sun.com Message-ID: <8525671C.005A0ACE.00@D51MTA10.pok.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:23:52 -0600 Subject: IBIS Accuracy Specification First Draft Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline (OK, so nobody is interviewing us - but we thought some of you might be interested in this "press release.") First Draft of IBIS Accuracy Specification Unveiled at DesignCon99 February 1, 1999 - A group of engineers from system and semiconductor companies has been working for the past year on a specification that would allow an IBIS datasheet (model) provider to document the results of lab correlation. This new effort is called the "IBIS Accuracy Specification," and we presented our first draft at the DesignCon99 IBIS Summit. The documents are available on the IBIS web site at www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis.htm under the heading "Accuracy Info." The intention of this specification is to offer the IBIS user a quantitative method for assessing the accuracy of an IBIS datasheet. The user can then make a data-driven decision about whether or not an IBIS datasheet and the component it represents are appropriate for the design application. The IBIS Accuracy Specification is a potentially powerful tool for specifying the purchase of semiconductor components. The basic idea is this: the IBIS modeling engineer measures a set of test loads called out in the spec and compares the results against SPICE "golden waveforms" that are embedded in the IBIS datasheet (model). The modeling engineer then applies a metric that quantifies the comparison and places the metric results in the IBIS datasheet as comments. The user can then run a comparison against the same "golden waveforms" using the behavioral simulator of his or her own choosing. So we have established a link between behavioral simulation results and the actual hardware the IBIS datasheet is supposed to represent. We invite the IBIS and signal integrity communities to review the IBIS Accuracy Specification and offer their comments and suggestions. Please send them to ibis-users@eda.org. This document is a work-in-progress; we are already working on revision 1.2. It is our intention to take the specification before the Electronic Industries Alliance for approval as a formal industry standard in 1999. Furthermore, we would like to invite any of you who has an interest in IBIS accuracy to join us in an open teleconference call beginning February 26, 1999. This call will be held the every third week one week after the regular IBIS Open Forum call. A formal announcement will be posted to the IBIS reflector after the February 19 IBIS Open Forum conference call. (You may join the reflector by sending email to ibis-request@eda.org.) The accuracy working group will address four main topics: 1) amending IBIS to include new golden waveforms 2) revising the IBIS Accuracy Specification to 1.2 3) pursuing EIA approval 4) expanding the scope to cover contemporary I/O buffer designs. As IBIS users, you may also be interested in a test board that we designed as a companion to the specification. It demonstrates test structures that implement the measurements called out by the specification. You can down-load the schematics, Gerbers, and Cadence design source files. The board design is public domain, and we encourage you to build your own copy or even change the design. Please read the errata first. From owner-ibis Mon Feb 22 18:52:24 1999 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id SAA12834; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:52:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from em-wv03.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id SAA23975; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:46:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from bob by em-wv03.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40R) id SAA23521; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:46:39 -0800 (PST) From: bob_ross@mentorg.com (Bob Ross) Received: by bob (4.1/CF5.23L) id AA01898; Mon, 22 Feb 99 18:46:38 PST Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 18:46:38 PST Message-Id: <9902230246.AA01898@bob> To: ibis-users@eda.org, ibis@eda.org, si-list@silab.eng.sun.com Subject: EUROPEAN IBIS SUMMIT MEETING REMINDER To All: This is a third announcement of the second European IBIS Summit Meeting. Last year we had a very successful European IBIS Summit Meeting. This year we are holding again a meeting along with DATE99 on Tuesday, March 9, 1999. The purpose is to promote communication among users and developers of IBIS models in Europe. The meeting is open to everyone and will start with a Lunch at Noon to allow some attendees to arrive in Munich that morning. Below is some information on the IBIS Summit and some related events. You are invited to register. The agenda is becoming formed below: Best Regards Bob Ross Mentor Graphics E U R O P E A N I B I S S U M M I T M E E T I N G T H I R D A N N O U N C E M E N T Time/Date: 12 PM - 6 PM, Tuesday, March 9, 1999 Location: ASTRON HOTEL/Neue Messe Eggenfeldener Strasse 100 Munich, Germany This is a hotel near the DATE99 Conference Content: Presentations and Discussions Purpose: Solicit and Exchange IBIS Model Related Information and Ideas. Sponsors: Mentor Graphics, INCASES, High Design Technology (HDT) DATE99 Show: DATE99 - March 9 - 12, 1999. The IBIS meeting is scheduled the day before the DATE99 trade show begins. Location: International Congress Center, Munich, Germany See www.date-conference.com for more information. PCB Symposium: An all day symposium is scheduled Thursday, March 11, 1999, on PCB design issues, on site at DATE99. CALL FOR PARTICIPANTS People involved in IBIS Model development, EDA tool development, and digital circuit design are invited to participate in the European IBIS Summit meeting. If you plan to participate, please register with the information below (deadline, February 26, 1999): Name: E-mail address: Company: Telephone: Send to: Karine Loudet (karine_loudet@mentor.com) +33 1 40 94 74 54 TENTATIVE SCHEDULE TO DATE: 12:00: LUNCH (Provided to all participants) 13:00 - 18:00 MEETING Current IBIS Activities and Issues Bob Ross, Mentor Graphics Detecting Typical Bugs in IBIS Models Werner Rissiek, INCASES Engineering Validation of IBIS Based Two Waveform Behavioral Models Bernhard Unger, Siemens AG IBIS Version 3.2 Update Stephen Peters, Intel BREAK IBIS Management and CHECK at Siemens ICN Gerald Bannert, Siemens DOGEN, An Internal Model Library Management Tool Hans Pichlmaier, Siemens General Questions and Discussions - IBIS Interpretation IBIS Future Requirements Stephen Peters, Intel Unconfirmed Presentation on Future Requirements General Questions and Discussions - Future Requirements - Any other topic of interest Ad Hoc Presentations CALL FOR PRESENTATIONS Presenters: If you want copies made of your presentation, please send presentation to these addresses: karine_loudet@mentor.com bob_ross@mentor.com Deadline is Friday, February 26, 1999, but we would prefer them as early as possible to get a head start. Otherwise plan to bring 50 copies for the meeting. FOR FURTHER INFORMATION: Bob Ross, Chair, EIA/IBIS Open Forum Mentor Graphics 8005 S.W. Boeckman Road Wilsonville, Oregon 97070 USA (503) 685-0732 bob_ross@mentor.com From owner-ibis Tue Feb 23 19:17:31 1999 Received: from mail.hyperlynx.com (root@mail.hyperlynx.com [209.20.148.70]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id TAA17036 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:17:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from tensor ([192.168.148.75]) by mail.hyperlynx.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA09635 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:12:12 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990223191211.00b377c0@hyperwall> X-Sender: mbflora@hyperwall X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:12:11 -0100 To: ibis@eda.org From: Matthew Flora Subject: IBIS Open Forum Minutes 19 Feb 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" DATE: 2/23/99 SUBJECT: 2/19/99 EIA IBIS Open Forum Minutes VOTING MEMBERS AND 1999 PARTICIPANTS LIST: AMP (Martin Freedman) Applied Simulation Technology Raj Raghuram*, Norio Matsui Cadence Design Mike LaBonte Cisco Systems Syed Huq* Compaq Bob Haller, Steve Coe, Shafir Rahman, Maher Elasad Cypress (Rajesh Manapat) H.A.S. Electronics (Haruny Said) Hewlett Packard (EEsof, etc.) Paul Gregory, Henry Wu High Design Technology (Razvan Ene) HyperLynx Matthew Flora*, Kellee Crisafulli Incases Olaf Rethmeier Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi*, Frank Kern, Martin Chang, Dave Moxley, Kerry Nelson, Jeff Day, Richard Mellitz, Peter Liou LSI Logic (Symbios Logic) Scott King Mentor Graphics Bob Ross*, Mohamed Mahmoud Mitsubishi (Tam Cao) Motorola (Ron Werner) National Semiconductor Milt Schwartz* North East Systems Associates Edward Sayre, Michael Baxter, Kathy Breda NEC (Hiroshi Matsumoto) Philips Semiconductor (Todd Andersen) Quantic EMC (Mike Ventham) Texas Instruments Jean-Claude Perrin*, Shankar Balasubramaniah, Ramzi Ammar Thomson-CSF (Jean Lebrun) Viewlogic Chris Rokusek, Guy de Burgh, (Jon Powell) VeriBest Ian Dodd VLSI Technology D.C. Sessions* Zuken-Redac (John Berrie) OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1999: 3Dfx Interactive Ken Wu Actel Corporation Silvia Montoya Applied Microelectronics Brian Sanderson Avanti Nik Bannov Bogatin Enterprise Eric Bogatin EIA Patti Rusher EMC Corporation Fabrizio Zanella IBM Greg Edlund*, Michael Cohen*, Praven Patel Fairchild Semiconductor Peter LaFlamme, Craig Klem FCI John Ellis Litton Systems Robert Bremer Molex Incorporated Gus Panella Rockwell Collins Susan Tweeton, Ron Hau Samsung Jung-Gun Byun, Cheol-Seung Choi Siemens AG Bernhard Unger Signals & Systems Engineering Tom Hawkins SiQual Scott McMorrow StorageTek Nick Krull Sun Microsystems Victor Chang Tektronix Tom Brinkoetter* Teradyne Mikhail Khusid Time Domain Analysis Systems Dima Smolyansky* Xilinx Susan Wu (Unaffiliatied, Retired) Bruce Wenniger In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses. Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets. Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as follows: Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode Tuesday, March 9, 1999 IBIS Summit Meeting - No Teleconference March 26, 1999 Not Yet Available All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas out 7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode. NOTE: "AR" = Action Required. -------------------------------- MINUTES ------------------------------------- INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM Tom Brinkoetter of Tektronix, who had called in last year, joined us for the IPA 510 discussion. MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT Bob Ross reported that the annual membership invoices have been sent out. Also, Philips Semiconductor was an IBIS Member in 1998. The December 18, 1998 minutes have been changed to show this membership. Last year there were 27 IBIS members. About 33 invoices were sent out this year. Membership is officially established when payment (or purchase order) is received by EIA. Bob expects several new memberships, including some from participating IBIS East companies. REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S No corrections. The ARs will be discussed during the meeting. MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS Bob Ross reported that the http://pub/ibis/summits/ directories now have all the uploaded Summit material (from face-to-face meetings) indexed by month/ year of the summit. Some Summits had no uploadable material. The minutes for these summits may be uploaded in the future. PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES Syed Huq reported some minor changes to the EIA IBIS web page have been sent to EIA. The list of upcoming events has been updated. Bob Ross reported the EE Times Article "EIAJ Proposes Alternative to IBIS Modeling Scheme" in the January 25, 1999 issue of EE Times. This article discusses the IBIS committee relationship with the EIAJ I/O modeling subgroup. It contains quotes from several IBIS committee participants. Bob reported that the DesignCon99 brochure listed IBIS as an Associate Sponsor and had a full page add for the IBIS Open Forum and Booth. Bob also reported that the presentation "A Tour of the IBIS Accuracy Specification" by Robert Haller, Peter LaFlamme was presented on Tuesday, February 2, 1999 at DesignCon99. This presentation is stored in the IBIS FTP site accuracy subdirectory: http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/accuracy/desconibis.zip and is accessible using the Accuracy Info link on the EIA IBIS home page. Bob reported that a presentation last year at DesignCon98 by Jon Powell and Chuck Berman titled "Creating Signal Integrity Models from Physical Measurement" appeared on pages 22-27 of the Hewlett-Packard publication Insite, Volume 4, Issue 1, 1999. Bob reported that Arpad Muranyi is teaching a session on "Introduction to IBIS Models" at the Circuit Simulation and Signal Integrity in Microelectronic Circuits and Systems tutorial short course. Also Tim Schreyer will teach "High Speed Interconnect Design". Finally, EDN Magazine has an EDN on Signal Integrity section which contains several links with IBIS content including "IBIS Links and Information": http://www.ednmag.com/special/si.cfm NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE Bob Ross reported that Philips Semiconductor has IBIS model links: http://www.philipslogic.com/products/pc/ http://www.philipslogic.com/support/ibis/ Bob also reported that Hyundai Electronics has IBIS models (registration is required): http://kcs.hei.co.kr/models/model/model.html The International Microelectronics FTP link now contains directly downloadable IBIS models (without the need for a password): ftp://ftp13.ba.best.com/pub/imiweb8/ibis/ OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES Bob Ross - Payment of Atul for parser development $4168 Bob Ross - Bug34 - No Error Reported for Missing V/I Table in Output Buffers (not covered) INTERNATIONAL/EXTERNAL PROGRESS - IEC 62014-1 (IBIS Version 2.1) - Bob Ross repeated a previous report that IEC has circulated IBIS Version 2.1 on November 6, 1998. The Committee Draft for Vote (CDV) closes ballot on April 15, 1999. - pr EIAJ ED-5302 Standard for I/O Interface Model for Integrated Circuits (IMIC) - Bob Ross reported that Dr. Hideki Fukuda held an EIAJ I/O Project Group meeting on January 12, 1999. The group discussed a relationship with IBIS, and almost all of the members wanted to cooperate with IBIS and reach a merger of IBIS and IMIC. They decided to make a group to discuss the issues of the relationship with IBIS. Another topic of the meeting was EMI. They will tackle the problem of applying IMIC to EMI analysis. Some of this information was also discussed at the IBIS Summit Meeting on February 1, 1999. - IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation - Jean-Claude Perrin reported that he plans an Experts meeting in March in preparation for a Working Group meeting later. A presentation is planned, but some software checking will be needed. Jean-Claude may not be able to attend the DATE99 IBIS Summit, but he expects someone from his group to attend. Jean-Claude will contact Bob Ross off-line concerning details of the presentation. - JC-16.2 Subcommittee: Modeling and Test - Bob Ross reported that D.C. Sessions reported on the reflector that a JEDEC standard now has requirements that IBIS Version 3.2 may not be able to handle. Stephen Peters and Kellee Crisafulli responded that [Model Selector] could be used. However, D.C. stated that this could produce too many models. Arpad Muranyi stated that some extension to IBIS such as equation based models might be used for such situations. Bob stated that this discussion needs to be deferred to a later time. This functionality could be a candidate for IBIS Version 4.x extensions - consistent with other input extensions. D.C. stated, as previously reported, that he is Chair of a JEDEC sub-group to standardize on a generic IBIS Model for double data rate SDRAM electrical characterization. D.C. is looking for IBIS members to help out. Contact D.C. at dc.sessions@vlsi.com if you are interested. - IEEE P1537 Electronic Data Format Project (Previously listed as the Standard Component Data Sheet) - Stephen Peters had no further report. IBIS (EAST) USERS GROUP MEETINGS Greg Edlund reported that the IBIS User Group will be holding teleconference meetings. Each meeting is planned to be on Friday of the week following, and at the same time of day as, the IBIS Open Forum meeting. The first one is scheduled for Friday, February 26, 1999 from 8 AM to 10 AM PST. Greg stated that about one hour will be devoted to Accuracy Committee issues, and Ed Sayre will be using the other hour for a general IBIS East meeting. The agenda and meeting contact details will be sent out after the IBIS Open Forum Meeting on the ibis-users@eda.org reflector. Greg expects to send out meeting minutes on that reflector. Bob Ross reported that Mentor Graphics is hosting the meeting and providing the dial-in number and password information for these minutes: Bridge Access Code Friday Feb. 26, 8 AM to 10 AM: 1-608-250-9675 734362 Bob noted that the DesignCon99 presentation has been uploaded to the FTP site. It is accessible directly and through the Accuracy link noted above. Bob also noted that the Connector activity will be covered as a separate group and working directly with the IBIS Open Forum. Some documents have been uploaded at a new "connector" subdirectory on the IBIS FTP site: http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/connector/ DESIGNCON99 FEBRUARY 1, 1999 SUMMIT REVIEW Bob Ross called for feedback on the February 1, 1999 IBIS Summit meeting. Matthew Flora stated it was a good meeting and that much of the material should provide new BIRDs for enhancing IBIS. Bob noted that typically some IBIS Summit material in the past has seeded actual specification advances. Bob thanked National Semiconductor for hosting the lunch, and Milt Schwartz for helping in the meeting logistics and in copying the presentations. Bob commented that the Booth went well and again thanked Viewlogic for providing the backdrop and Jon Powell for handling the logos and other details. Jon is currently in possession and is storing the logo placards for later use. Bob also commented that he expects to see the DesignCon99 problems concerning the proceedings and lack of room for many High Performance System Design sessions to be resolved next year. Bob expects that the IBIS Open Forum will be an Associate Sponsor again next year. DATE99 MARCH 9, 1999 SUMMIT MEETING Bob Ross noted that information has been sent out on the IBIS Summit meeting associated with the DATE99 conference in Munich, Germany. The IBIS meeting is scheduled for Tuesday, March 9, 1999 at the Hotel below: ASTRON HOTEL/Neue Messe Eggenfeldener Strasse 100 Munich, Germany Lunch, provided to all participants, will start at 12 Noon, and the meeting is expected to start at 1:00 PM. The date was chosen to avoid conflicting with the trade show portion of DATE99 held Wednesday through Friday. The Noon starting time will allow some people to fly in that morning. Mentor Graphics, INCASES, High Design Technology are co-sponsoring the IBIS Summit Meeting. INCASES has sent out a press release in Europe concerning the meeting. Bob listed the tentative agenda: 12:00: LUNCH (Provided to all participants) 13:00 - 18:00 MEETING Current IBIS Activities and Issues Bob Ross, Mentor Graphics Detecting Typical Bugs in IBIS Models Werner Rissiek, INCASES Engineering Validation of IBIS Based Two Waveform Behavioral Models Bernhard Unger, Siemens AG IBIS Version 3.2 Update Stephen Peters, Intel BREAK IBIS Management and CHECK at Siemens ICN Gerald Bannert, Siemens DOGEN, An Internal Model Library Management Tool Hans Pichlmaier, Siemens General Questions and Discussions - IBIS Interpretation IBIS Future Requirements Stephen Peters, Intel Future Requirements on Frequency Dependent Package and MCM Modeling (Tentative) Werner Rissiek, INCASES Engineering General Questions and Discussions - Future Requirements - Any other topic of interest Ad-hoc Presentations Another flyer will be sent out early next week. The Agenda will be sent out one week in advance. Presenters are requested to send electronic copies of their presentations to karine_loudet@mentor.com for copying by February 26, 1999 or earlier. Otherwise plan to bring 50 copies for the meeting. Stephen Peters reported problems with this address, and Bob will handle this offline. (Stephen successfully sent his presentations.) Bob noted that some of the presentations may be uploaded under a Mar99 subdirectory before the meeting. IBIS VERSION 3.2 EIA STANDARD PREPARATIONS Bob Ross stated that IBIS Version 3.2 had been ratified at the January 15, 1999 meeting and the ARs for it had been completed. The revised document was uploaded at http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/ver3.2/ver3_2.ibs Patti Rusher supplied a link to Bob regarding an example of a JEDEC document that is downloadable and subject to electronic balloting. Bob plans to have an electronic balloting mechanism set up for ratification of IBIS Version 3.2 as ANSI/EIA-656A. However, Bob is not aware that anything has been set up yet. IBISCHK3 VERSION 3.2.2 AND VERSION 3.2.3 Bob Ross reported that the ibischk3 Version 3.2.2 and Version 3.2.3 have been distributed to the companies supporting the parser development. The executables for ibischk3 version 3.2.2 have been uploaded. Several issues came up. Atul Agarwal asked if the old ibis_chk executable for Version 1.1 should be split off. He gave the options of deleting it from ibischk3, accessing it by a switch, or keep as is (autodetect Version 1.1 level files to invoke the ibis_chk code. Bob favored keeping ibischk3 as is. Bob also noted that it was reported that the hp10 executable did not properly handle the IBIS Version 3.2 extension on the number of characters allowed in file names when the file name had more than 8 characters. ibischk3 worked fine for Sun UNIX and Windows operating systems. Matthew Flora stated that he tracked the location where the error is being generated. He will work with Chris Rokusek (and Atul) for more clarification and testing. Bob raised the new agenda item for approving payment to Atul Agarwal. Bob reported that Atul had performed work beyond the scope of the work leading to ibischk3 Version 3.1.0. He had been paid for the original work. The work for the extensions to ibischk3 Version 3.2.3 had to deal with some significant additions associate with 10 BIRDs (including the new [Submodel] mechanism) and many BUG reports. He had done the extension based on an agreement that he would be compensated at a later time. The amount of work adds up to $4168.00. Bob felt that that was a fair amount and called for a vote to authorize the EIA to pay for this when the formal invoice from Atul is received. Payment authorization to Atul Agarwal was approved by unanimous vote. Matthew Flora questioned whether this was a vote to ratify the parser. Bob stated that the parser still had the hp10 bug above, but suggested that the ratification vote be held at the next scheduled teleconference meeting (scheduled March 26, 1999). Bob expects that more work and revisions will be done to the parser as problems are reported, but it is sufficiently stable for ratification. Michael Cohen questioned whether ibischk3 included other versions of the parser. Bob Ross and others responded that ibischk3 is also referred as a parser, and it contains the functionality of IBIS Version 2.1 and IBIS Version 1.1 testing within the ibischk3 executable. Executables are available off of the IBIS FTP site, but source code is issued only to those companies who are funding the project. These companies have the benefit of the first release, and executables are not always produced for each release. TEKTRONIX IPA 510 SOFTWARE DISTRIBUTION PROPOSAL The remainer of the meeting was devoted to the Tektronix IPA 510 software distribution proposal. In order to deal with this topic, Bob Ross stated that we would follow Syed Huq's private suggestion using the sequence below: Briefly introduce the background and proposal Hear arguments favoring the proposal Hear arguments opposing the proposal Open the meeting to discussion and more arguments Conduct a vote Bob stated that the issue will be decided by majority vote of the official IBIS members at the meeting. Bob had not received notification of any new members. If there were a tie vote, the issue would be brought up the next teleconference for more discussion and another vote. Bob started by presenting the background. At the November 6, 1998 teleconference meeting Tektronix had proposed a free transfer to the IBIS Open Forum of the IPA 510 software product for parameter extraction based on time domain reflectometry measurements. The Forum would distribute both the executable and source code and provide support. Tektronix would retain the right to sell products based on this code or derivatives of it. The source code would be distributed only to people agreeing to provide back to the IBIS Open Forum the source code with any enhancements based on the code. After extensive discussion, the IBIS Open Forum approved distributing only the executable code, but had to resolve a few questions and needed refinement of the agreement before agreeing to distribute the source code. While in pursuit of some of these questions, a few objections were raised. The fundamental concern was whether it was appropriate for the IBIS Open Forum to distribute this software. This was discussed again at the November 20, 1998 meeting. The resolution was to continue discussion. At the January 15, 1999 meeting, the issue was again discussed. A vote was conducted with split resolution just as the meeting time was running out. Since these subsequent discussions were cut short because of other IBIS business or conducted under time pressure, we decided to raise the issue again at the February 19, 1999 meeting and schedule enough time for full discussion and resolution. Bob noted that there were no known barriers to accepting the proposal. The FTP site could be used for code distribution. The EIA legal department had given its approval. At least one person was identified to handle the source code distribution. We could develop appropriate processes for source code distribution and control. The executable was dongle-free, and documentation was included. in the product. In addition, Syed had investigated some other alternatives for source code distribution, but these did not look promising. Syed and Matthew Flora suggested that the issue first be constrained to only dealing with distribution of the executable. Bob agreed, although he expressed concern that one fundamental motivation for discussing the proposal was to make the source code available for improvement. Tom Brinkoetter discussed again why Tektronix was making the offer. Tektronix has discontinued the IPA 510 hardware and software product and no longer can provide support. In order to help the existing user community, Tektronix is interested in offering the product to the IBIS Open Forum and to help develop a self-supporting user community. Tom responded to a number of questions before having to leave for another committment. Stephen Peters questioned why the product could not just be offered from a Tektronix web site, and Tom responded that the Tektronix logo and location would convey implicit support. Tom clarified Bob's understanding that, the current product executable operates only on Windows 3.1 and Windows 95. It does not work on Windows NT. During the discussion, Bob read parts of the agreement for clarification. The arguments in favor of and against the proposal were presented by everyone and do not necessarily represent one's overall support or opposition to the proposal. Some are paraphrased to capture the essence. The arguments in favor: 1. Syed stated that the IPA 510 was a widely used tool. He found it relevant to IBIS for developing measurement based IBIS models. It was particularly useful for VT tables and for extracting the capacitance information. 2. Syed also stated that the support would be through voluntary effort similar to the support done for s2ibis. It would not be a burden on the IBIS Open Forum. Milt Schwartz reaffirmed this position. 3. Raj Raghuram indicated that this could be considered a free tool similar to s2ibis. 4. Matthew Flora argued that offering the utility had a positive effect on the market. Free utilities did not detract from commercial operations. (Examples could be Berkeley Spice versus commercial Spice, or free linux versus commercial linux.) Later it was argued that the free utility sets the "base-line" or level of expectation for commercial utilities. 5. Milt and Bob indicated that having the utility available would be a factor in educating the community on TDR and parameter extraction technology. 6. Greg Edlund also supported the TDR method as the simpler method for package model parameter extraction. 7. Later Syed argued that the executable itself would become obsolete within about two years as Windows 3.1 and Windows 95 systems were phased out. Arguments in opposition: 1. Stephen Peters was concerned that the IBIS Forum should not be responsible for distributing a product that competed with potential commercial products. It could undercut commercial attempts. Some discussion occurred that the other free utilities were issued when there were no commercial alternatives. 2. Stephen felt Tektronix should take direct responsibility in distributing the executable. 3. Bob cited a top level concern that the executable, unlike other free utilities, was not directly related to IBIS. 4. Bob was concerned that EIA and IBIS are industry funded organizations with high involvement with vendor-neutral standards development. IBIS should avoid situations which may favor one commercial venture over another. Distributing the utility risked having the IBIS Forum loose credibility by intruding into the commercial arena. 5. Dima Symolansky argued that substantial support was needed for potential bugs and technical issues. So rather than seeding the market, a bad experience with a free utility could discourage one from investigating a commercial alternative. 6. Bob felt that the support could be inadequate since better support of a product is available from a commercial organization where funding is involved (such as with ibischk3) Raj asked whether under the transfer agreement, the executable could be used in a commercial product (such as with a wrapper around it). This was discussed. Bob thought it was permissible, but was not sure. Others thought it might not be technically practical. Additional discussions and clarifications occurred and some other arguments may have been presented, but not captured. Upon completion, Bob called for a vote. The Tektronix proposal to have the IBIS Open Forum distribute the executable code was rejected by a 4 NO to 3 YES vote. It was determined that no other issues needed to be discussed regarding the Tektronix proposal. The meeting was concluded as time ran out. COOKBOOK STATUS (Not Discussed) IBIS MODEL REVIEW COMMITTEE DISCUSSION (Not Discussed) The old AR remains. AR - Matthew Flora to issue to the IBIS reflector a short write-up on the IBIS Model Review Committee. OLD TOPIC - BIRD56 - RELAXATION OF THE [Series Pin Mapping] RESTRICTION (Not discussed) The old AR remains. AR - Arpad Muranyi provide an IBIS model example for BIRD56. CONNECTOR PROPOSAL REVIEW (Not Discussed) ACCURACY SPECIFICATION REVIEW (Not Discussed) BUG34 - NO ERROR REPORTED FOR MISSING V/I TABLE IN OUTPUT BUFFERS This new item was not discussed. NEXT MEETING: The next meeting will be an IBIS Summit Meeting at DATE99 from 12 PM to to 6 PM on Tuesday, March 9, 1999 at the Astron Hotel in Munich, Germany. The following teleconference meeting will be on Friday, March 26, 1999 from 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM. ============================================================================== NOTES IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 685-0732, Fax (503) 685-4897 bob_ross@mentorg.com Modeling Engineer, Interconnectix BU of Mentor Graphics 8005 S.W. Boeckman Road, Wilsonville, OR 97070 VICE CHAIR: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515 sjpeters@ichips.intel.com Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation M/S JF1-56 2111 NE 25th Ave. Hillsboro, Oregon 97124-5961 SECRETARY: Matthew Flora (425) 869-2320, Fax: (425) 881-1008 mbflora@hyperlynx.com Senior Engineer, HyperLynx, Inc. 17641 NE 67th Court Redmond, WA 98052 LIBRARIAN: Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259 jonp@qdt.com Senior Scientist, Viewlogic Systems (formerly Quad Design) 1385 Del Norte Rd., Camarillo, CA 93010 This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA Manual of Organization and Procedure. The following e-mail addresses are used: ibis-request@eda.org To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector (ibis@eda.org), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector (ibis-users@eda.org) or both. State your request. ibis-info@eda.org To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS Open Forum as a full Member. ibis@eda.org To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS technical enhancements. Job posting information is not permitted. ibis-users@eda.org To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector. This is used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and general user concerns. Job posting information is not permitted. ibischk-bug@eda.org To report ibischk2 parser bugs. The Bug Report Form Resides on eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/ibischk/bugform.txt along with reported bugs. To report s2ibis, s2ibis2 and s2iplt bugs, use the Bug Report Forms which reside under eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis/bugs2i.txt, /pub/ibis/bugs/s2ibis2/bugs2i2.txt, & /pub/ibis/bugs/s2iplt/bugsplt.txt respectively. Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the Electronic Information Group under: http://www.eia.org Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous discussions and results. You can get on via FTP anonymous. ============================================================================== From owner-ibis Wed Feb 24 16:49:31 1999 Received: from mail.hyperlynx.com (root@mail.hyperlynx.com [209.20.148.70]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA21080 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:49:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from Kellee98 ([192.168.148.110]) by mail.hyperlynx.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA20848; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:44:08 -0800 Message-Id: <199902250044.QAA20848@mail.hyperlynx.com> X-Sender: kellee@pop.nwlink.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:44:16 -0800 To: ibis@eda.org, ibiscnn@mail.hyperlynx.com From: Kellee Crisafulli Subject: IBIS Connector group status. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990223191211.00b377c0@hyperwall> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by server.eda.org id QAA21081 Update on IBIS connector sub-group activities. At the presentation at DesignCon99 earlier this month we had a few questions come up. Most notable were the following: 1) The documentation about the type of matrix data needs a better description. We agreed to add more documentation in this area: We have not completed this A.I. yet. 2) There is no way to describe lossy R,L,C,G effects. The sub-group responded by saying we had considered it but felt is was too complex to include in the first version of the specification. We agreed to reopen this for discussion in the sub-group. See below for details. We have not gotten the full connector sub-group back together since DesignCon but we plan to do so next week. I felt we owed an update since we have not reported back on the IBIS meeting inputs. Please feel free to forward any comments for the connector sub-group to me. We are very interested in creating a standard that works for the majority of users. In the mean time we had a discussion between Teradyne and HyperLynx Electromagnetic guru's and begun discussions of methods to describe lossy information in the specification. HyperLynx-Teradyne meeting summary: 1) How do we describe the 3 major types of resistive loss across frequency (R matrix). General methods in use today only focus on one or two and require geometric data as input. 2) How do we describe L,C frequency effects 3) How do we describe dielectric loss v.s. frequency (G matrix). We discussed several methods and agreed that a full loss model was very complex. We determined 3 possible courses of action: 1) Continue without loss in the first release (follow up later) 2) Create a very simplified loss method for the first release 3) Continue discussions until a full featured loss model is found. It was mentioned several times that because connectors are very short typically less than an inch the loss with todays uses is very small and we could probably get by without including loss until the next release. It was also mentioned that acquiring the data from real connector models to describe several aspects of loss is very difficult. We also discussed the possibility of using the IBIS connector model for doing cable models. We will be discussing these options in the next connector sub-group meeting and report our suggestions at that time to the full IBIS group. We want to give serious consideration for method a simplified model at that time. More of the meeting details will be sent from Mikhail at Teradyne to sub-committee along with a first cut at the proposed simplified loss model. Kellee --------------------------------------------------------- Have a great day.... Kellee Crisafulli at HyperLynx SI,EMC,X-talk and IBIS tools for the Windows platform E-mail: web:   --------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ibis Wed Feb 24 16:57:43 1999 Received: from mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (mta1.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.122]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA21095 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:57:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacbell.net (ppp-209-79-182-67.vntrcs.pacbell.net) by mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0F7O001WNQF0OH@mta1.snfc21.pbi.net> for ibis@vhdl.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:52:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:51:12 -0800 From: Jon Powell Subject: IBIS model page update To: ibis@vhdl.org Reply-to: jpowell@viewlogic.com Message-id: <36D49E80.41791877@pacbell.net> Organization: Viewlogic Consulting Services MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-PBI-NC404 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi IBIS type persons, I have update the IBIS MODEL PAGE (http://www.eia.org/EIG/IBIS/ibis.htm and select "models"). There are several new model references there but a couple pages have disappeared. As always, if you know where more models are, please send me email: jonp@pacbell.net sincerely, Jon Powell IBIS Librarian From owner-ibis Wed Feb 24 20:50:41 1999 Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id UAA21558 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:50:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23041 invoked by alias); 25 Feb 1999 04:45:24 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-ibis@eda.org@fixme Received: (qmail 22993 invoked by uid 0); 25 Feb 1999 04:45:22 -0000 Received: from dialup88.bois.uswest.net (HELO vasthorizons.com) (207.108.228.88) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 25 Feb 1999 04:45:22 -0000 Message-ID: <36D4D560.65906FE@vasthorizons.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:45:21 -0800 From: Scott McMorrow X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kellee Crisafulli , ibis@eda.org Subject: Re: IBIS Connector group status concerning ac losses References: <199902250044.QAA20848@mail.hyperlynx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kellee, It is in the area of extending the model for use with packages (which can be quite lossy), cables (which do have significant losses), and pcboard traces (as an extension to the current ebd non-lossless model) that some sort of frequency dependent loss model is needed. The Hspice W-element model with a frequency dependent dielectric and skin effect loss is generally good to the 1 to 2 GHz range, within a small margin of error. Yes, there are frequency dependent changes in L and C, however, they are quite small in the frequency ranges where IBIS simulations are generally run. AC losses are a significant factor in real systems with sub-400ps edge rates, and high frequencies. I see these effects in source synchronous bus simulations in the 200 to 400MHz range, where the edge rate harmonics approach 1.5 to 2 GHz. They significantly effect noise margins and timing of high speed signals, and definitely effect the eye patterns of fiber channel and gigabit ethernet signals. I would suggest that the committee take the lead and define an extensible method of describing ac losses. One that could be enhanced by different methods of modeling in the future. For example, using the current matrix models that you have for lossless transmission line sections, you could easily extend this to an RLGC matrix with an Rs, which is the frequency dependent skin effect resistance, and Gd, which is the frequency dependent dielectric loss. Other, possibly more advanced, modeling types could be included in the standard in the future. I agree that, in general, ac losses are insignificant for most connectors. However, if we are creating a coupled matrix template to be used in other areas, as I have suggested above, then it makes sense to consider inclusion of frequency dependent losses in this standard. Otherwise, it will be years before the chance will occur again. If we think of this as a way to enhance ebd and package modeling, then I believe adding ac losses to the coupled matrix descriptions makes undeniable sense. If you don't beleive, then try to correlate a 400MHz memory bus simulation to measurements using an IBIS simulator with currentebd models of the RIMM modules. It can't be done. Regards, Scott > 2) There is no way to describe lossy R,L,C,G effects. > The sub-group responded by saying we had considered it but felt > is was too complex to include in the first version of the specification. > We agreed to reopen this for discussion in the sub-group. > See below for details. > HyperLynx-Teradyne meeting summary: > 1) How do we describe the 3 major types of resistive loss > across frequency (R matrix). General methods in use today only focus > on one or two and require geometric data as input. > 2) How do we describe L,C frequency effects > 3) How do we describe dielectric loss v.s. frequency (G matrix). > > We discussed several methods and agreed that a full loss model > was very complex. We determined 3 possible courses of action: > 1) Continue without loss in the first release (follow up later) > 2) Create a very simplified loss method for the first release > 3) Continue discussions until a full featured loss model is found. > > It was mentioned several times that because connectors are very short > typically less than an inch the loss with todays uses is very small > and we could probably get by without including loss until the next release. > It was also mentioned that acquiring the data from real connector models > to describe several aspects of loss is very difficult. > We also discussed the possibility of using the IBIS connector model for > doing cable models. > From owner-ibis Thu Feb 25 15:02:44 1999 Received: from thalia.fm.intel.com (thalia.fm.intel.com [132.233.247.11]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA27606 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:02:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from fmsmsx17.intel.com (fmsmsx17.fm.intel.com [132.233.58.209]) by thalia.fm.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.6 1998/11/24 22:10:56 iwep Exp iwep $) with ESMTP id WAA14093; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:57:28 GMT Message-Id: <199902252257.WAA14093@thalia.fm.intel.com> Received: by FMSMSX17 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:57:28 -0800 From: "Muranyi, Arpad" To: "\"ibis@eda.org\" " , "\"ibiscnn@mail.hyperlynx.com\" " , "\"Kellee Crisafulli\" " Subject: RE: IBIS Connector group status. Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:56:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by server.eda.org id PAA27607 Kellee, Thanks for the update. I agree that the losses for a connector may be negligible, because they are fairly short. However, it was also brought up at DesignCon99 that whatever you do for the connector should be generalized for EBD and package, if possible, since they are so similar. If that can be done, losses would become much more important. Could an HSPICE-like method (W-element's matrix format with Rs and Gd) be adopted as an interim solution? If possible at all, I would like to see the connector spec to be extended to the package at least since we have burning needs there, for which it would be good to have the losses. Arpad ============================================================================ ==== Update on IBIS connector sub-group activities. At the presentation at DesignCon99 earlier this month we had a few questions come up. Most notable were the following: 1) The documentation about the type of matrix data needs a better description. We agreed to add more documentation in this area: We have not completed this A.I. yet. 2) There is no way to describe lossy R,L,C,G effects. The sub-group responded by saying we had considered it but felt is was too complex to include in the first version of the specification. We agreed to reopen this for discussion in the sub-group. See below for details. We have not gotten the full connector sub-group back together since DesignCon but we plan to do so next week. I felt we owed an update since we have not reported back on the IBIS meeting inputs. Please feel free to forward any comments for the connector sub-group to me. We are very interested in creating a standard that works for the majority of users. In the mean time we had a discussion between Teradyne and HyperLynx Electromagnetic guru's and begun discussions of methods to describe lossy information in the specification. HyperLynx-Teradyne meeting summary: 1) How do we describe the 3 major types of resistive loss across frequency (R matrix). General methods in use today only focus on one or two and require geometric data as input. 2) How do we describe L,C frequency effects 3) How do we describe dielectric loss v.s. frequency (G matrix). We discussed several methods and agreed that a full loss model was very complex. We determined 3 possible courses of action: 1) Continue without loss in the first release (follow up later) 2) Create a very simplified loss method for the first release 3) Continue discussions until a full featured loss model is found. It was mentioned several times that because connectors are very short typically less than an inch the loss with todays uses is very small and we could probably get by without including loss until the next release. It was also mentioned that acquiring the data from real connector models to describe several aspects of loss is very difficult. We also discussed the possibility of using the IBIS connector model for doing cable models. We will be discussing these options in the next connector sub-group meeting and report our suggestions at that time to the full IBIS group. We want to give serious consideration for method a simplified model at that time. More of the meeting details will be sent from Mikhail at Teradyne to sub-committee along with a first cut at the proposed simplified loss model. Kellee --------------------------------------------------------- Have a great day.... Kellee Crisafulli at HyperLynx SI,EMC,X-talk and IBIS tools for the Windows platform E-mail: web:   --------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ibis Fri Feb 26 09:15:38 1999 Received: from send103.yahoomail.com (send103.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.92]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id JAA00891 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:15:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19990226171057.17201.rocketmail@send103.yahoomail.com> Received: from [38.168.153.2] by send103.yahoomail.com; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:10:57 PST Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:10:57 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Lin Reply-To: scottlin@pacbell.net Subject: SUBSCRIBE To: ibis@eda.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii SUBSCRIBE == Scott Lin Project Manager Foxconn International, Inc Direct: 408-919-6175 Main: 408-919-6100 Fax: 408-330-6988 Email: scottlin@pacbell.net _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com