From: owner-ibis-users@ (ibis-users) To: ibis-users-digest@eda.org Subject: ibis-users V1 #9 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ibis-users@ Errors-To: owner-ibis-users@ Precedence: bulk ibis-users Wednesday, September 18 2002 Volume 01 : Number 009 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Aug 2002 17:21:52 -0400 From: "Perry Qu" Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] Simplified model for receiver Kevin, Thanks for your suggestion. I'm using HSPICE 2001.2 and 2001.4. None them works on this model. I will check the IV curves as you suggested. In the mean time, I find it hard to understand that the same model works fine in XTK. REgards PErry Kevin Fisher wrote: > Perry, > > What version of Hspice are you running? > > In the combined IV curves for the LVDS driver model, where do the > pullup/p-clamp and pulldown/g-clamp cross 0mA, and are there data points > explicitly stating the 0mA crossing in the tables? > > Have you ran other simulations with the IBIS driver model in Hspice that > gave you expected results? > > I would suggest running an IV sweep on the LVDS IBIS model and comparing > the resulting IV curves with the IV curves in the IBIS model. > > -- > Kevin M. Fisher > Consultant > Signal Integrity Software Inc. > 6 Clock Tower Place, Suite 250 > Maynard, MA 01754 > Phone: (978) 461-0449, ext 11 > http://www.sisoft.com > > Perry Qu wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Can anyone share your experience to use a simple die capacitance to > > replace IBIS receiver model, especially for differential receivers ? I > > run into such situations frequently when some IBIS models does not > > behave properly in HSPICE and I have to do the simulation using other > > IBIS-based tools. e.g., i had a case right now when the driver is an > > IBIS model (LVDS) and receiver is in HSPICE. The apparent choice is to > > run the simulation in HSPICE. Unfortunately, the IBIS model does not > > behave properly in HSPICE, whereas it works fine in XTK. I was forced to > > run the simulation in XTK but I have to replace the HSPICE model of > > receiver with a simplified model to at least get some feeling about the > > signal integrity. Of course, I will add packaging in the simulation. > > > > Thanks > > > > -- > > Perry Qu > > > > Product Integrity | 600 March Road > > Alcatel Canada | Ottawa, ON K2K 2E6, Canada > > > > DID: (613) 7846720 | FAX: (613) 5993642 > > > > > > |------------------------------------------------------------------ > > |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org > > |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: > > | > > | help > > | subscribe ibis > > | subscribe ibis-users > > | unsubscribe ibis > > | unsubscribe ibis-users > > | > > |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. > > | > > |IBIS reflector archives exist under: > > | > > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent > > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent > > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 > > |------------------------------------------------------------------ > |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org > |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: > | > | help > | subscribe ibis > | subscribe ibis-users > | unsubscribe ibis > | unsubscribe ibis-users > | > |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. > | > |IBIS reflector archives exist under: > | > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 - -- Perry Qu Product Integrity | 600 March Road Alcatel Canada | Ottawa, ON K2K 2E6, Canada DID: (613) 7846720 | FAX: (613) 5993642 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:32:28 -0400 From: "Ingraham, Andrew" Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] Simplified model for receiver I am puzzled why you think the fault is with the IBIS model. I think you said the simulation looks good with the IBIS driver model in XTK, or with just the IBIS driver model in HSPICE; but that it misbehaves when you add the HSPICE receiver model. That would seem to indicate that something may be wrong with the HSPICE receiver model. Is it an encrypted model? Are there any SCALE or SCALM options anywhere? In the IBIS models in HSPICE, make sure to include all nodes in your B-elements, do not omit the "optional" ones. They aren't really optional, if you want correct behavior. Regards, Andy |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 2002 14:04:17 -0400 From: "Perry Qu" Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] Simplified model for receiver Andy, Thanks for your reply. Maybe I did not make myself clear in the previous email. Yes, I don't think there is anything wrong with the IBIS driver model. It works just fine in XTK. However, in HSPICE, when I tested the IBIS driver model by connecting the driver to termination directly, without SPICE receiver, I got wierd waveform with higher than normal voltage swing and faster edges. And I do include all the options in the B_element. Regards Perry "Ingraham, Andrew" wrote: > I am puzzled why you think the fault is with the IBIS model. > > I think you said the simulation looks good with the IBIS driver model in XTK, or with just the IBIS driver model in HSPICE; but that it misbehaves when you add the HSPICE receiver model. That would seem to indicate that something may be wrong with the HSPICE receiver model. > > Is it an encrypted model? > > Are there any SCALE or SCALM options anywhere? > > In the IBIS models in HSPICE, make sure to include all nodes in your B-elements, do not omit the "optional" ones. They aren't really optional, if you want correct behavior. > > Regards, > Andy > > |------------------------------------------------------------------ > |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org > |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: > | > | help > | subscribe ibis > | subscribe ibis-users > | unsubscribe ibis > | unsubscribe ibis-users > | > |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. > | > |IBIS reflector archives exist under: > | > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 - -- Perry Qu Product Integrity | 600 March Road Alcatel Canada | Ottawa, ON K2K 2E6, Canada DID: (613) 7846720 | FAX: (613) 5993642 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:41:31 -0700 From: yw.wang@philips.com Subject: [IBIS-Users] info about signal integrity This is a multipart message in MIME format. - --=_alternative 007BFF5707256C16_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I want to know some stuff about signal integrity ( IBIS model related ). Any recommandation on the theory and tools are appreciated. yu wang yw.wang@philips.com - --=_alternative 007BFF5707256C16_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
I want to know some stuff about signal integrity ( IBIS model related ). Any recommandation on the theory and tools are appreciated.

yu wang

yw.wang@philips.com

 - --=_alternative 007BFF5707256C16_=-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:34:54 -0700 From: yw.wang@philips.com Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] info about signal integrity This is a multipart message in MIME format. - --=_alternative 00028B1607256C17_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks for your response, Bill, I probably did not asked the right question, I actually more interested in how the IBIS model is used in signal integrity check. I actually have the ibis models and I want to know how to verify them other than using the ibischk tool downloaded from the eda web. Do you have some information about that as well? Thanks again. yu wang - --=_alternative 00028B1607256C17_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Thanks for your response, Bill,

I probably did not asked the right question, I actually more interested in how the IBIS model is used in signal integrity check. I actually have the ibis models and I want to know how to verify them other than using the ibischk tool downloaded from the eda web.  Do you have some information about that as well?

Thanks again.

yu wang - --=_alternative 00028B1607256C17_=-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:59:08 +0530 From: Anshuli Goel Subject: [IBIS-Users] [Fwd: Non_monotonous data in IBIS models] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------2C9A25AC95A0BB341CDED8B8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please ignore the previous mail . The IBIS models is attached with this mail. Regards Anshuli Anshuli Goel wrote: > Hi All > > I am a new user of IBIS model.I tried generating the IBIS models for > input and output models using s2ibis2 utility from NCSU . > I am getting some non-monotonic data in the curves.Which I am not able > to understand it's reason. > The IBIS file is attached . Please suggest me some thing where I could > be wrong and what can I do to rectify this problem. > > Regards > Anshuli > - --------------2C9A25AC95A0BB341CDED8B8 Content-Type: application/vnd.lotus-organizer; name="oum831.ibs.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="oum831.ibs.org" fCoqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKgp8IElCSVMgZmlsZSBvdW04MzEuaWJzIGNyZWF0ZWQgYnkg czJpYmlzMiB2ZXJzaW9uIDEuMQp8IE5vcnRoIENhcm9saW5hIFN0YXRlIFVuaXZlcnNpdHkg RWxlY3Ryb25pY3MgUmVzZWFyY2ggTGFib3JhdG9yeSAgMTk5NQp8KioqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqCnwKW0lCSVMgdmVyXSAgICAgICAyLjEKW0ZpbGUgbmFtZV0gICAgICBvdW04MzEuaWJz CltGaWxlIFJldl0gICAgICAgMApbRGF0ZV0gICAgICAgICAgIEphbiAyOSwgMjAwMiAKW1Nv dXJjZV0gICAgICAgICBGcm9tIFRGUDUwMSBEQVRBIEJVRkZFUiBzcGljZSBtb2RlbHMgCltE aXNjbGFpbWVyXSAgICAgUGxlYXNlIGJlIGF3YXJlIHRoYXQgaW4gdGhlIGFic2VuY2Ugb2Yg 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Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:57:15 +0530 From: Anshuli Goel Subject: [IBIS-Users] Non_monotonous data in IBIS models This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------F8F6DC76CBC9AD2B46BD04B1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I am a new user of IBIS model.I tried generating the IBIS models for input and output models using s2ibis2 utility from NCSU . I am getting some non-monotonic data in the curves.Which I am not able to understand it's reason. The IBIS file is attached . Please suggest me some thing where I could be wrong and what can I do to rectify this problem. Regards Anshuli - --------------F8F6DC76CBC9AD2B46BD04B1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="README" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="README" This README file describes the v1.1 distribution of s2ibis2. This is a minor bug-fix release. It affects only those users who were using Spectre to produce their IBIS files. (Thanks to Ganesh Balamitran for the bug report.) See the file doc/changes.txt for a description of the bug. To try s2ibis2, use the appropriate executable (found in the bin directory) and use any of the files in the examples/ directory as input. For example, for a quick test run on Solaris machine, you could try the following (note that "%" is the prompt symbol, so don't type it): % cd examples/ex1 % ../../bin/s2ibis2.solaris buffer.s2i The program will execute, and in a few minutes, it will write the file buffer.ibs. (Note that this example uses the Spectre simulator, so it should be in your executable path.) You can compare this file to the file my_buf.ibs in the same directory. For a more permanent installation, I would suggest renaming the appropriate executable to s2ibis2, and moving it to an appropriate directory somewhere in your executable path (or adding the S2IBIS2/bin directory to your path). We are distributing the Perl script s2iplt, by Steve Lipa, with s2ibis2. This script uses gnuplot to plot out all the curves found in an IBIS file. It's a handy thing to have. For information on Perl and gnuplot, see the README file in the s2iplt directory. If you have comments, bug reports, or suggestions for features, please email them to me at: awglaser@eos.ncsu.edu Thanks very much. *********************************************************************** This directory contains the following: bin/ contains the following executables: s2ibis2.ultrix executable for DECstations (Ultrix 4.3) s2ibis2.hpux executable for HPUX s2ibis2.aix32 executable for RS6000 (AIX 3.2) s2ibis2.sun4 executable for SPARCstation (SunOS 4) s2ibis2.solaris executable for SPARCstation (Solaris) doc/ contains documentation s2iplt/ contains the Perl script s2iplt src/ contains the source code and Makefile for s2ibis2 examples/ contains various examples of how to use s2ibis2. - --------------F8F6DC76CBC9AD2B46BD04B1-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:02:51 -0400 From: "Ingraham, Andrew" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] [Fwd: Non_monotonous data in IBIS models] Non-monotonicity is normal for a bidirectional buffer and happens as a consequence of subtracting the clamp currents from the total currents to generate the pullup and pulldown current tables. In the region where the clamps are effective, the pullup and pulldown currents frequently have non-monotonic behavior. If ibischk were clever enough to sum the currents back together before checking for monotonicity, most of these warnings would go away. Anyway, IBIS doesn't care if the data is monotonic. It's just that some simulators that use IBIS data might be affected. Technically, IBIS model can have non-monotonic data. Regards, Andy |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:24:35 +0530 From: Anshuli Goel Subject: [Fwd: [IBIS-Users] [Fwd: Non_monotonous data in IBIS models]] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------24A7B6667AE8D5367AFDC7C6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --------------24A7B6667AE8D5367AFDC7C6 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <3D609611.735A1209@india.ti.com> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:24:09 +0530 From: Anshuli Goel Reply-To: anshuli@india.ti.com Organization: Texas Instruments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Ingraham, Andrew" Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] [Fwd: Non_monotonous data in IBIS models] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Andy Thanx for the response.But just wanted to know if this non-monotonic behaviour will be the case for input only or output only buffers also ? The models that I am using are input only and output only buffers . I don't have any Bi-di buffer .The output buffer is 3-state output buffer . Regards Anshuli Ingraham, Andrew" wrote: > Non-monotonicity is normal for a bidirectional buffer and happens as a consequence of subtracting the clamp currents from the total currents to generate the pullup and pulldown current tables. In the region where the clamps are effective, the pullup and pulldown currents frequently have non-monotonic behavior. > > If ibischk were clever enough to sum the currents back together before checking for monotonicity, most of these warnings would go away. > > Anyway, IBIS doesn't care if the data is monotonic. It's just that some simulators that use IBIS data might be affected. Technically, IBIS model can have non-monotonic data. > > Regards, > Andy > > |------------------------------------------------------------------ > |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org > |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: > | > | help > | subscribe ibis > | subscribe ibis-users > | unsubscribe ibis > | unsubscribe ibis-users > | > |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. > | > |IBIS reflector archives exist under: > | > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 - --------------24A7B6667AE8D5367AFDC7C6-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:37:26 -0400 From: "Ingraham, Andrew" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Non_monotonous data in IBIS models > Thanx for the response.But just wanted to know if this non-monotonic behaviour will be the case for input only or output only buffers also ? The models that I am using are input only and output only buffers . > I don't have any Bi-di buffer .The output buffer is 3-state output buffer . Sorry, I really should have said tri-stateable buffers (which effectively includes bi-dir buffers too, since they are tri-stateable). It tends to happen when you create a buffer model that has both the * Clamp tables and Pulldown, Pullup tables. Input buffers have only the Clamp tables, so they should be OK. Output-only buffers that don't tri-state should be OK (if the output drivers really are monotonic) because they have only the Pulldown and Pullup tables. The monotonicity tends to happen as a result of subtracting the Clamp currents from the total currents, to get the Pulldown and Pullup tables. If input-only buffers or output-only buffers (that don't tri-state) cause non-monotonic warnings, then they really are non-monotonic (or there's something wrong with the measurements or simulations used to create their IBIS models). Regards, Andy |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:23:28 -0500 From: Steven_McKinney@Dell.com Subject: [IBIS-Users] Rising waveform, Fall waveform data tables Can anyone explain how the simulator uses the Rising/Falling waveform data tables that are included in an IBIS model. Some models contain several tables of data for the Rising/Falling waveform but it is unclear how the simulator uses this information. Does the simulator select one table depending on simulation conditions or does it interpolate across all the tables? I know that the information is optional, but I am assuming that in order to get more accurate simulation results, you should have this waveform data. Thanks for any clarification! Regards, Steven McKinney |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:02:23 -0400 From: "Lynne Green" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Rising waveform, Fall waveform data tables Hello, Steven, You are right that V-t tables make the model more accurate than having just the [Ramp] values. The IBIS specification does not describe how the tables are to be used, so not all EDA tools use the tables in exactly the same way. SpecctraQuest does use all of the V-t tables. Two relevant papers available on the web: http://www.mentor.com/icx/modeling/ibis_modeling.html#documents 1. "The Development of Analog SPICE Behavioral Model Based on IBIS Model" - by Ying Wang and Han Ngee Tan, Proceedings of the Ninth Great Lakes Symposium on VLSI, (March 1999) 2. "Extraction of Transient Behavioral Model of Digital I/O Buffers from IBIS" - by Peivand Tehrani,Yuzhe Chen and Jiayuan Fang, 46th IEEE Electronic Components & Technology Conference (May 28-31, 1996). Best regards, Lynne Dr. Lynne Green Senior Member of Consulting Staff Cadence Design Systems, Inc. "All the world's an analog stage, whereon digital plays bit parts." - -----Original Message----- From: Steven_McKinney@Dell.com [mailto:Steven_McKinney@Dell.com] Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 12:23 PM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users] Rising waveform, Fall waveform data tables Can anyone explain how the simulator uses the Rising/Falling waveform data tables that are included in an IBIS model. Some models contain several tables of data for the Rising/Falling waveform but it is unclear how the simulator uses this information. Does the simulator select one table depending on simulation conditions or does it interpolate across all the tables? I know that the information is optional, but I am assuming that in order to get more accurate simulation results, you should have this waveform data. Thanks for any clarification! Regards, Steven McKinney |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:02:03 +0530 From: akhilesh.chandra@st.com Subject: [IBIS-Users] more information required for ibischk 3.2 Hi all, Can you tell me please what our ibischk 3.2 check in our model & how it can check our models. If you have any doc regarding it is helpful to me. Regards Akhilesh |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:26:29 +0530 From: akhilesh.chandra@st.com Subject: [IBIS-Users] ibis model problem Hi all, I got one warning in my IBIS model Can any one tell me why it is? WARNING - Model 'cell': TYP VI curves cannot drive through Vmeas=1.4V given load Rref=1e+06 Ohms to Vref=1.65V Cell is a simple bidirectional. I am unable to undersatnd what is the significance of this warning & how I can remove it. Regards Akhilesh |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 02:28:54 -0700 From: Ramesh Reddy Subject: [IBIS-Users] HSPICE to IBIS Hi All I want to convert HSPICE model to IBIS model. Please let me know which application I have to use(download) and how to use to convert HSPICE to IBIS. Thanks in advance Ramesh |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:53:15 -0400 From: Kevin Fisher Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] ibis model problem akhilesh.chandra@st.com wrote: > Hi all, > > I got one warning in my IBIS model Can any one tell me why it is? > > WARNING - Model 'cell': TYP VI curves cannot drive through Vmeas=1.4V > given load Rref=1e+06 Ohms to Vref=1.65V > > Cell is a simple bidirectional. > > I am unable to undersatnd what is the significance of this warning & > how I can remove it. > > Regards > Akhilesh > |------------------------------------------------------------------ > |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org > |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: > | > | help > | subscribe ibis > | subscribe ibis-users > | unsubscribe ibis > | unsubscribe ibis-users > | > |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. > | > |IBIS reflector archives exist under: > | > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 Akhilesh, One of the things IBISchk verifies is an IO/Output cell can drive the timing reference load specified in the IBIS model (which in the case of your cell is a 1Meg resistor to 1.65V) through the standard load reference voltage (1.4V in this case). It does this by drawing a load line representing the standard load on the IV table and checks that Vmeas is within the range is between voltages where the the load line crosses the low-state DC curve and the high-state DC curve. However, there is not enough information above to diagose the problem. It could be one of a number of things. If you could make the suspect IBIS model available, it would make it much easier to figure out what's going on here. Thanks, Kevin - -- Kevin M. Fisher Consultant Signal Integrity Software Inc. 6 Clock Tower Place, Suite 250 Maynard, MA 01754 Phone: (978) 461-0449, ext 11 http://www.sisoft.com - -- Kevin M. Fisher Consultant Signal Integrity Software Inc. 6 Clock Tower Place, Suite 250 Maynard, MA 01754 Phone: (978) 461-0449, ext 11 http://www.sisoft.com |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:30:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Syed Huq Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] HSPICE to IBIS Ramesh, For a shareware tool, download from the link 'Spice-to-IBIS Conversion': http://www.eigroup.org/IBIS/tools.htm When you un'tar, look under /s2ibis2/doc for documentation. Syed >From: Ramesh Reddy >To: ibis-users@eda.org >Subject: [IBIS-Users] HSPICE to IBIS >Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 02:28:54 -0700 >MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > Hi All > I want to convert HSPICE model to IBIS model. > Please let me know which application I have to use(download) and how to >use to convert HSPICE to IBIS. > > Thanks in advance > Ramesh > > > >|------------------------------------------------------------------ >|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org >|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: >| >| help >| subscribe ibis >| subscribe ibis-users >| unsubscribe ibis >| unsubscribe ibis-users >| >|or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. >| >|IBIS reflector archives exist under: >| >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:15:13 -0700 From: "Peters, Stephen" Subject: [IBIS-Users] Request for IBIS Golden Parser Developer Quotes Greetings IBIS fans and users: As you are probably aware, IBIS version 4.0 was approved at the IBIS Open Forum on July 19. IBIS Version 4.0 incorporates 11 (eleven) approved BIRDs. The approved IBIS version 4.0 specification is available on the IBIS website: http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/specs.htm With the approval of the new IBIS version, the Golden Parser program ("ibischk3") must now be upgraded. The IBIS Open Forum is soliciting names of any companies or individuals who may be interested in bidding on this project. If you or your company are interested, or you know of a contractor who may be, please contact Stephen Peters by e-mail (stephen.peters@intel.com) or at the address below. Quotes will be evaluated based on price, delivery date, evidence of ability to complete the contract in a timely and professional manner, and ability to provide parser support. A document containing the detailed requirements will be available to those interested in bidding. Thank you for your help. Best Regards, Stephen Peters Intel Corp. Chair, EIA/IBIS Open Forum - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Stephen J. Peters Phone: (503) 264-4108 M/S JF4-215 Fax: (503) 264-1831 Intel Corporation stephen.peters@intel.com 2111 N.E. 25th Ave. Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 23:29:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Syed Huq Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS Roster page updates - Urgent Please review your information on the IBIS roster under: http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/roster/roster.html We need your inputs to update your company information and keep all entries current. The roster is the best method for the IBIS community to get hold of you. Please provide "ALL" data for any missing fields. Failure to provide an update could result in the removal of your company information so your participation is urgently needed. If no changes are needed, then simply reply back and specify "No changes". We will start the cleanup in ONE WEEK. Thanks, Syed Webmaster |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:25:08 +0530 From: Anshuli Goel Subject: [IBIS-Users] How Do We model the parasitics of board. ? Hi All, I have one querry ? The bondwire and pin capacitance is captured in R,L and C of package in IBIS models but how do we take care of the load that this buffer is going to drive outside the package ? Does it need to be modeled ? If not than how that load is taken care off while doing the simulation using IBIS models , 'coz the behaviour of the I/O will change with different loads. ? Regards Anshuli Goel |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:35:56 +0530 From: Anshuli Goel Subject: [IBIS-Users] Multi Power Buses IBIS models. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------8BB5537F7791A8EF01759150 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I am trying to generate the IBIS model for input model with multiple VDD and VSS supply.I have in by ckt 2 VDDs and 2VSS.One VDD operates at 3.3 and another at 1.8.The circuitry that is in direct contact with outside world is working at 3.3 Volt while other circuitry is working on 1.8 V . As there is no option to model these multi power buses in s2ibis2 utility . What should I do to eliminate this problem.? One more thing is Vinl and Vinh parameter must for input model to be supplied in s2ibis2 utility ? What is the difference in vinl,vinh and Vil and Vih . ? Where and how these parameters should be used ? If anybody can answer my querries that will be really helpful. ? Regards Anshuli Goel Texas Instruments - --------------8BB5537F7791A8EF01759150 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <3D5A25EE.36BD17FD@india.ti.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:12:06 +0530 From: Anshuli Goel Reply-To: anshuli@india.ti.com Organization: Texas Instruments X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis-info@eda.org Subject: Multi Power Buses IBIS models. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I am trying to generate the IBIS model for input model with multiple VDD and VSS supply.I have in by ckt 2 VDDs and 2VSS. One VDD operates at 3.3 and another at 1.8 As there is no option to model these multi power buses in s2ibis2 utility . What should I do to eliminate this problem.? One more thing is Vinl and Vinh parameter must for input model to be supplied in s2ibis2 utility ? What is the difference in vinl,vinh and Vil and Vih . ? Where and how there parameters should be used ? In generating the models I am able to generate the GND clamp curve properly but in Power Clamp curve I am getting very low values of current . What could be the reason for this ? If anybody can answer my querries that will be really helpful. Regards Anshuli Goel Texas Instruments - --------------8BB5537F7791A8EF01759150-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:02:56 -0500 From: John Phillippe Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] Multi Power Buses IBIS models. Anshuli Goel wrote: > > Hi > > I am trying to generate the IBIS model for input model with multiple VDD > and VSS supply.I have in by ckt 2 VDDs and 2VSS.One VDD operates at 3.3 and > another at 1.8.The circuitry that is in direct contact with outside world > is working at 3.3 Volt while other circuitry is working on 1.8 V . As there > is no option to model these multi power buses in s2ibis2 utility . What > should I do to eliminate this problem.? > > One more thing is Vinl and Vinh parameter must for input model to be > supplied in s2ibis2 utility ? > > What is the difference in vinl,vinh and Vil and Vih . ? Where and how > these parameters should be used ? > > If anybody can answer my querries that will be really helpful. ? > > Regards > Anshuli Goel > Texas Instruments > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Multi Power Buses IBIS models. > Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:12:06 +0530 > From: Anshuli Goel > Organization: Texas Instruments > To: ibis-info@eda.org > > Hi > > I am trying to generate the IBIS model for input model with multiple VDD > and VSS supply.I have in by ckt 2 VDDs and 2VSS. > One VDD operates at 3.3 and another at 1.8 > As there is no option to model these multi power buses in s2ibis2 > utility . What should I do to eliminate this problem.? > > One more thing is Vinl and Vinh parameter must for input model to be > supplied in s2ibis2 utility ? > > What is the difference in vinl,vinh and Vil and Vih . ? Where and how > there parameters should be used ? > > In generating the models I am able to generate the GND clamp curve > properly but in Power Clamp curve I am getting very low values of > current . What could be the reason for this ? > > If anybody can answer my querries that will be really helpful. Anshuli, I ran into this problem as well. What I did, was to use the higher VDD, in your case 3.3V, in the .s2i file. Then in my library file, I added the following spice command: .global gnd vdd vss vddh bvdd vdd gnd v=(0.52*v(vddh)) This generates 2.6V from the 5V VDD I'm using. My buffer uses VDDH=5.0V externally, and VDD=2.6V internally. - -- John Phillippe SPS, 32 Bit Embedded Controller Division, IC Creation Motorola - 512-895-1835 Austin, TX - ra6314@email.sps.mot.com |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:51:38 -0400 From: Robert Haller Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] Non_monotonous data in IBIS models Anshuli I took a quick look at the IBIS model and have 2 observations. First, there is an BUG in the IBIS parser that causes it to flag non-monotonic problems in pullups and pulldowns when clamps are seperated out even though combined curves are Monotonic. I have formally submitted this as parser BUG71, lobby your company IBIS rep to APPROVE this BUG fix if you don't want to see FALSE error flags. Second, In your IBIS model there was an addition non-monotonic region outside the normal region of operation ( ~ 5 volts) which probably won't cause you simulation problems, but from the purest standpoint is wrong. Regards, Bob - -- Robert J. Haller (rhaller@sisoft.com) Principal Consultant Signal Integrity Software Inc. 6 Clock Tower Place, Suite 250 Maynard, MA 01754 Phone: (978) 461-0449, ext 15 Anshuli Goel wrote: > Hi All > > > I am a new user of IBIS model.I tried generating the IBIS models for > input and output models using s2ibis2 utility from NCSU . > I am getting some non-monotonic data in the curves.Which I am not able > to understand it's reason. > The IBIS file is attached . Please suggest me some thing where I could > be wrong and what can I do to rectify this problem. > > Regards > Anshuli > > > |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:05:15 -0700 From: "Mohan, Prabhu" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Multi Power Buses IBIS models. Hi Anshuli, Vil & Vih are required for any buffer that can be an output. - these are used only by s2ibis2 as stimulus for HSPICE simulation - they don't appear in the IBIS model vinl & vinh are required for any buffer that can be an input (3-state is an exception i think). - these are not used by s2ibis2 for HSPICE simulation - they do appear in the IBIS model (s2ibis2 just pastes the given value) - these are the low and high input threshold voltages (eg. 0.8 and 2.0 for TTL) and are used by board level simulators Regards Prabhu/~ - -----Original Message----- From: Anshuli Goel [mailto:anshuli@india.ti.com] Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 4:06 AM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users] Multi Power Buses IBIS models. Hi I am trying to generate the IBIS model for input model with multiple VDD and VSS supply.I have in by ckt 2 VDDs and 2VSS.One VDD operates at 3.3 and another at 1.8.The circuitry that is in direct contact with outside world is working at 3.3 Volt while other circuitry is working on 1.8 V . As there is no option to model these multi power buses in s2ibis2 utility . What should I do to eliminate this problem.? One more thing is Vinl and Vinh parameter must for input model to be supplied in s2ibis2 utility ? What is the difference in vinl,vinh and Vil and Vih . ? Where and how these parameters should be used ? If anybody can answer my querries that will be really helpful. ? Regards Anshuli Goel Texas Instruments |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:10:45 -0700 From: "Angulo, John" Subject: [IBIS-Users] FW: IBIS Summit (East), October 15, 2002 This message is posted on behalf of Kathy Breda of North East Systems Associates, Inc. Please send all private replies to breda@nesa.com only. John Angulo IBIS Open Forum Postmaster - ------------------------------------------- To All: This is the first call for the IBIS East Summit Meeting. The PCB East conference that usually coincides with the IBIS Summit has been relocated from Worcester, MA to Boxborough, MA and the time has been moved to October. The IBIS Summit Meeting will be held on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 to avoid conflicting with the Exhibition portion of the PCB meeting. We will be holding the meeting in Westford, MA at NESA's offices. See http://www.nesa.com/map.html for directions to NESA. Westford is about 10 miles north of Boxborough. We need, and would greatly appreciate the following: Meeting Participation IBIS Presentations Sponsors for the lunch that is provided at the meeting. I look forward to hearing from you all. Regards, Kathy Breda NESA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - ------------------------------------------------------- IBIS SUMMIT FIRST CALL FOR PARTICIPATION, PRESENTATIONS & SPONSORSHIP!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I B I S S U M M I T M E E T I N G Time/Date: 8:30 AM - 5:00 PM, Tuesday, October 15, 2002 Location: North East Systems Associates (NESA) 5 LAN Drive, Suite 2000 Westford, MA 01886 Tel: (978) 392-8787 See http://www.nesa.com/map.html for map and instructions Content: Presentations and Discussions Purpose: Solicit and Exchange IBIS Model Related Information and Ideas. Sponsors: North East Systems Associates, Inc. (NESA), IBIS Users Group Others to be determined WE ARE LOOKING FOR ADDITIONAL SPONSORS! (contact Kathy Breda, breda@nesa.com or Bob Ross, bob_ross@mentor.com) PCB Conference: October 14-18, 2002 East Holiday Inn Boxborough Woods Boxborough, Massachusetts See http://www.pcbeast.com/ for more information. BACKGROUND The IBIS Users Group (IBIS East) has been formed under the leadership of Dr. Edward Sayre from North East Systems Associates, Inc. (NESA) and has been meeting to consider and forward IBIS model user concerns. As a result of East coast meetings, the group has developed an IBIS Accuracy Handbook document and has initiated the project to format Connector Models. These topics plus others of current interest to the EIA IBIS Open Forum will be discussed at this meeting. This meeting will be conducted as a formal IBIS Summit Meeting. Presentation are expected to be available and archived in an electronic format, and minutes of the meeting will be issued. Any pending formal decisions (votes) will be announced at least two weeks prior to the meeting. CALL FOR PARTICIPANTS People involved in IBIS Model development, EDA tool development, and digital circuit design are invited to participate to the Summit meeting. If you plan to participate, please register with the information below: Name: E-mail address: Company: Telephone: Send to: Kathy Breda (breda@nesa.com) CALL FOR PRESENTATIONS We are seeking presentations from individuals who have IBIS experiences or issues. Format of Presentation: Overhead Projections or LCD Projections (NESA has both machines) Time: 15-30 Minutes Electronic Archival: We request electronic versions so that the presentations can be archived and also made available to non-attendees. Formats used in the past have been text, Power Point, Word, Postscript, and Acrobat. Electronic presentations should be made available by October 11, 2002. Otherwise the presenter will be expected to provide up to 30 copies for distribution. If you plan a presentation, please supply Title: Presenter: E-mail address: Company: Telephone: Estimate Time: Send this to: Kathy Breda (breda@nesa.com) AGENDA The agenda includes presentations, discussions, breaks, and a luncheon (which will be provided). This will be developed as presentation proposals are received. LIST OF NEARBY HOTELS See http://www.pcbeast.com for travel directions, hotels and other information. |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:09:09 -0700 From: "Peters, Stephen" Subject: [IBIS-Users] Agenda, IBIS Open Forum Teleconference 8/30 IBIS Open Forum Meeting Agenda for 8/30/02 Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode 1-888-316-5901 N/A 5136500 (International Dial-In: 1-617-801-9781) All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Stephen Peters and give the Reservation Number and Passcode. 8:00 Check-In, Intros, Announcements Peters - Intros of New IBIS Participants, Meeting Quorum Peters - Membership Update and Treasurers Report Peters - Review of Previous Meeting's Minutes (and ARs) Peters - Miscellany/Announcements All - Press & Web Page Updates Huq, All - New Models Available, Library Update Leventhal, All - Opens for New Issues All 8:15 Administrative and Project Discussions International/External Progress - IEC 62014-3 (ICEM) Integrated Circuits Electromagnetic Model Proposal (IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation) Perrin/Peters PCB Conference East IBIS Summit Meeting Peters IBIS Version 4.0 Activities Peters IBIS Qualification Committee Katz IBIS Model Review Committee Green New Administrative Issues All 8:45 Technical Discussion BIRD74.1 - EMI Parameters de Burgh BIRD77.1 - Differential Subparameter Additions Ross/Muranyi BIRD75.3 - Multi-Lingual IBIS Model Support Ross/Muranyi IBIS Connector and Futures Group Report Peters ibischk3 & Bug Tracking Status Ross - BUG71 Monotonic Checking for Combined I-V Tables - BUG72 Tab Warning Message Promotion New Technical Issues All 9:50 Wrap Up and Next Meetings Plans Peters 9:55 Sign Off |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:22:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul J. Menchini" Subject: [IBIS-Users] Test Ladies and Gentlemen, This is a test--please ignore. We're diagnosing some possible list problems and, unfortunately, to really test, one must send email.... Paul Menchini eda.org Lead System Manager |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 00:40:04 -0700 From: Shee Kian Wong Subject: [IBIS-Users] LVDS modeling method This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24E66.1FE3AAC0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi all, I've seen a lot of LVDS modeling methods only take care of vos (output offset voltage) or vcm (common mode voltage). But how come very seldom people make use of vod (output differential voltage)? Isn't as important as other parameters? Please advice. Best Regards, Shee Kian Wong Applications Engineer, Altera Corporation (M) Sdn. Bhd. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24E66.1FE3AAC0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LVDS modeling method

Hi all,

I've seen a lot of = LVDS modeling methods only take care of vos (output offset voltage) or vcm (common mode voltage).

But how come very seldom = people make use of vod = (output differential voltage)? = Isn't as = important as other = parameters?

Please advice.


Best Regards,

 

Shee Kian = Wong

Applications Engineer,

Altera = Corporation (M) Sdn. Bhd.

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24E66.1FE3AAC0-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 01:08:40 -0700 From: Shee Kian Wong Subject: [IBIS-Users] PCML I/O Buffer This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24E6A.1EB5DC50 Content-Type: text/plain Hi all, Does anyone have experience in modeling a PCML I/O buffer? Best Regards, Shee Kian Wong Applications Engineer, Altera Corporation (M) Sdn. Bhd. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24E6A.1EB5DC50 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PCML I/O Buffer

Hi = all,

Does = anyone have experience in modeling a PCML I/O buffer?

Best Regards,

 

Shee Kian = Wong

Applications Engineer,

Altera = Corporation (M) Sdn. Bhd.

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24E6A.1EB5DC50-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:45:24 +0300 From: "Hegazy, Hazem" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] LVDS modeling method This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24E6F.4047064F Content-Type: text/plain Hi, Could please clarify the question? The common mode voltage is very important for the model generation and which method to use. While the Vod is a model parameter and you can even put it in the model after finishing all current/wave form tables. Hazem Hegazy - -----Original Message----- From: Shee Kian Wong [mailto:SKWONG@altera.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:40 AM To: ibis-users@server.eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users] LVDS modeling method Hi all, I've seen a lot of LVDS modeling methods only take care of vos (output offset voltage) or vcm (common mode voltage). But how come very seldom people make use of vod (output differential voltage)? Isn't as important as other parameters? Please advice. BM__MailAutoSigBest Regards, Shee Kian Wong Applications Engineer, Altera Corporation (M) Sdn. Bhd. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24E6F.4047064F Content-Type: text/html LVDS modeling method
Hi,
 
 Could please clarify the question? The common mode voltage is very important for the model generation and which method to use. While the Vod is a model parameter and you can even put it in the model after finishing all current/wave form tables.
 

Hazem Hegazy

-----Original Message-----
From: Shee Kian Wong [mailto:SKWONG@altera.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:40 AM
To: ibis-users@server.eda.org
Subject: [IBIS-Users] LVDS modeling method

Hi all,

I've seen a lot of LVDS modeling methods only take care of vos (output offset voltage) or vcm (common mode voltage).

But how come very seldom people make use of vod (output differential voltage)? Isn't as important as other parameters?

Please advice.


Best Regards,

 

Shee Kian Wong

Applications Engineer,

Altera Corporation (M) Sdn. Bhd.

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24E6F.4047064F-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 02:33:55 -0700 From: Shee Kian Wong Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] LVDS modeling method This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24E76.077DD630 Content-Type: text/plain Hi, Thanks for your interest. Sorry for not specifying my question clearly. The LVDS standard specifies a differential output voltage range of 0.25V < Vod < 0.45V. Also, the terms "common-mode voltage" and "offset voltage" refer to the average of A and B (the outputs of the driver), (A +B)/2. And LVDS has a typical output common-mode voltage of 1.25 V. This simply means that A+B=2.5. Let say if one output is at 1.5V (during sweeping of an external voltage source), the other output will try to achieve 1V so as to maintain a fixed Vcm. However, Vod is now 500mV which is out of the Vod range. When one output is -2V, the other one will be 4.5V, which consequently giving rise to a Vod of 6500mV. This should not be the behavior of an LVDS buffer. My question was: Is it possible to model an LVDS buffer by controlling both vcm and vod? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks. Best Regards, Shee Kian Wong Applications Engineer, Altera Corporation (M) Sdn. Bhd. - -----Original Message----- From: Hegazy, Hazem [mailto:hazem_hegazy@mentorg.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 4:45 PM To: 'Shee Kian Wong'; ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] LVDS modeling method Hi, Could please clarify the question? The common mode voltage is very important for the model generation and which method to use. While the Vod is a model parameter and you can even put it in the model after finishing all current/wave form tables. Hazem Hegazy - -----Original Message----- From: Shee Kian Wong [mailto:SKWONG@altera.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:40 AM To: ibis-users@server.eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users] LVDS modeling method Hi all, I've seen a lot of LVDS modeling methods only take care of vos (output offset voltage) or vcm (common mode voltage). But how come very seldom people make use of vod (output differential voltage)? Isn't as important as other parameters? Please advice. Best Regards, Shee Kian Wong Applications Engineer, Altera Corporation (M) Sdn. Bhd. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24E76.077DD630 Content-Type: text/html LVDS modeling method

Hi,

 

Thanks for your interest. Sorry for not specifying my question clearly.

 

The LVDS standard specifies a differential output voltage range of 0.25V < Vod < 0.45V. Also, the terms "common-mode voltage" and "offset voltage" refer to the average of A and B (the outputs of the driver), (A +B)/2. And LVDS has a typical output common-mode voltage of 1.25 V. This simply means that A+B=2.5.

 

Let say if one output is at 1.5V (during sweeping of an external voltage source), the other output will try to achieve 1V so as to maintain a fixed Vcm. However, Vod is now 500mV which is out of the Vod range. When one output is -2V, the other one will be 4.5V, which consequently giving rise to a Vod of 6500mV. This should not be the behavior of an LVDS buffer.

 

My question was: Is it possible to model an LVDS buffer by controlling both vcm and vod?

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.

 

Best Regards,
 
Shee Kian Wong
Applications Engineer,
Altera Corporation (M) Sdn. Bhd.

-----Original Message-----
From: Hegazy, Hazem [mailto:hazem_hegazy@mentorg.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 4:45 PM
To: 'Shee Kian Wong'; ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] LVDS modeling method

 

Hi,

 

 Could please clarify the question? The common mode voltage is very important for the model generation and which method to use. While the Vod is a model parameter and you can even put it in the model after finishing all current/wave form tables.

 

Hazem Hegazy

-----Original Message-----
From: Shee Kian Wong [mailto:SKWONG@altera.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:40 AM
To: ibis-users@server.eda.org
Subject: [IBIS-Users] LVDS modeling method

Hi all,

I've seen a lot of LVDS modeling methods only take care of vos (output offset voltage) or vcm (common mode voltage).

But how come very seldom people make use of vod (output differential voltage)? Isn't as important as other parameters?

Please advice.

 

Best Regards,

 

Shee Kian Wong

Applications Engineer,

Altera Corporation (M) Sdn. Bhd.

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24E76.077DD630-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:51:49 +0300 From: "Hegazy, Hazem" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] LVDS modeling method This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24E78.8732761D Content-Type: text/plain First, I modeled LVDS buffer has a voltage swing of 800mV !!. This happened not only once. Second, The Vod of a LVDS buffer between 0.25V and 0.45V is at standard loads. The no load or capacitive load conditions might give higher swings. In your example of A= -2V then B=4.5V, This is not the dc conditions (Steady state) This assumed to happen in transient. Over/under shoots are the reason here to model the buffer in these voltage ranges. BR, Hazem Hegazy Development Engineer IBIS & TAU Modeling Team Mentor Graphics Tel: +20(2) 4135458 Mobile: +20(10) 6052154 Fax: +20(2) 4141306 - -----Original Message----- From: Shee Kian Wong [mailto:SKWONG@altera.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 12:34 PM To: Hegazy, Hazem; ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] LVDS modeling method Hi, Thanks for your interest. Sorry for not specifying my question clearly. The LVDS standard specifies a differential output voltage range of 0.25V < Vod < 0.45V. Also, the terms "common-mode voltage" and "offset voltage" refer to the average of A and B (the outputs of the driver), (A +B)/2. And LVDS has a typical output common-mode voltage of 1.25 V. This simply means that A+B=2.5. Let say if one output is at 1.5V (during sweeping of an external voltage source), the other output will try to achieve 1V so as to maintain a fixed Vcm. However, Vod is now 500mV which is out of the Vod range. When one output is -2V, the other one will be 4.5V, which consequently giving rise to a Vod of 6500mV. This should not be the behavior of an LVDS buffer. My question was: Is it possible to model an LVDS buffer by controlling both vcm and vod? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks. Best Regards, Shee Kian Wong Applications Engineer, Altera Corporation (M) Sdn. Bhd. - -----Original Message----- From: Hegazy, Hazem [mailto:hazem_hegazy@mentorg.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 4:45 PM To: 'Shee Kian Wong'; ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] LVDS modeling method Hi, Could please clarify the question? The common mode voltage is very important for the model generation and which method to use. While the Vod is a model parameter and you can even put it in the model after finishing all current/wave form tables. Hazem Hegazy - -----Original Message----- From: Shee Kian Wong [mailto:SKWONG@altera.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:40 AM To: ibis-users@server.eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users] LVDS modeling method Hi all, I've seen a lot of LVDS modeling methods only take care of vos (output offset voltage) or vcm (common mode voltage). But how come very seldom people make use of vod (output differential voltage)? Isn't as important as other parameters? Please advice. Best Regards, Shee Kian Wong Applications Engineer, Altera Corporation (M) Sdn. Bhd. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24E78.8732761D Content-Type: text/html LVDS modeling method
First, I modeled LVDS buffer has a voltage swing of 800mV !!. This happened not only once.
Second, The Vod of a LVDS buffer between 0.25V and  0.45V is at standard loads. The no load or capacitive load conditions might give higher swings.
In your example of A= -2V then B=4.5V, This is not the dc conditions (Steady state) This assumed to happen in transient. Over/under shoots are the reason here to model the buffer in these voltage ranges.
 
BR,
 

Hazem Hegazy
Development Engineer
IBIS & TAU Modeling Team
Mentor Graphics
Tel: +20(2) 4135458
Mobile: +20(10) 6052154
Fax: +20(2) 4141306

-----Original Message-----
From: Shee Kian Wong [mailto:SKWONG@altera.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 12:34 PM
To: Hegazy, Hazem; ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] LVDS modeling method

Hi,

 

Thanks for your interest. Sorry for not specifying my question clearly.

 

The LVDS standard specifies a differential output voltage range of 0.25V < Vod < 0.45V. Also, the terms "common-mode voltage" and "offset voltage" refer to the average of A and B (the outputs of the driver), (A +B)/2. And LVDS has a typical output common-mode voltage of 1.25 V. This simply means that A+B=2.5.

 

Let say if one output is at 1.5V (during sweeping of an external voltage source), the other output will try to achieve 1V so as to maintain a fixed Vcm. However, Vod is now 500mV which is out of the Vod range. When one output is -2V, the other one will be 4.5V, which consequently giving rise to a Vod of 6500mV. This should not be the behavior of an LVDS buffer.

 

My question was: Is it possible to model an LVDS buffer by controlling both vcm and vod?

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.

 

Best Regards,
 
Shee Kian Wong
Applications Engineer,
Altera Corporation (M) Sdn. Bhd.

-----Original Message-----
From: Hegazy, Hazem [mailto:hazem_hegazy@mentorg.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 4:45 PM
To: 'Shee Kian Wong'; ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] LVDS modeling method

 

Hi,

 

 Could please clarify the question? The common mode voltage is very important for the model generation and which method to use. While the Vod is a model parameter and you can even put it in the model after finishing all current/wave form tables.

 

Hazem Hegazy

-----Original Message-----
From: Shee Kian Wong [mailto:SKWONG@altera.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:40 AM
To: ibis-users@server.eda.org
Subject: [IBIS-Users] LVDS modeling method

Hi all,

I've seen a lot of LVDS modeling methods only take care of vos (output offset voltage) or vcm (common mode voltage).

But how come very seldom people make use of vod (output differential voltage)? Isn't as important as other parameters?

Please advice.

 

Best Regards,

 

Shee Kian Wong

Applications Engineer,

Altera Corporation (M) Sdn. Bhd.

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24E78.8732761D-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 22:09:06 +0630 From: Suchitha.V@smartm.com Subject: [IBIS-Users] HSPICE(.rlc/.sp) files Hi All, I have some package model information in the following formats Format: HSPICE W Element (.rlc) Format: HSPICE (.sp) I'm using XTK/ScratchPad from Innoveda for SI analysis. I would like to know the method to include the package files in HSPICE format along with the IBIS buffer model of the component, in the topology created in ScratchPad/XTK Or Is there a conversion tool available to convert HSPICE model into IBIS/QUAD format (input format for XTK). Can anyone please suggest a method to include the package model information? Thanking you in advance Thanks & Regards Suchitha, |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:34:33 +0530 From: Nirav Patel Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS issue at high frequencies IBIS gurus, We are using Avanti HSPICE to correlate the IBIS model performance to spice. We notice that the model starts misbehaving abruptly as we increase the toggle rate. Our observation has been that the onset of this misbehavior is a function of the delay through the buffer. Buffers that have long propagation delays tend to misbehave at lower toggle rates. Does anybody have a clue on what may be the cause of this issue? Any help will be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance. - --Nirav |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:09:13 +0300 From: "Hegazy, Hazem" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] IBIS issue at high frequencies This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24F33.2847DCA1 Content-Type: text/plain Hi, Should I ask at which rate or rise/fall time you generate the model? I mean, the stimulus of the input side while extracting wave form tables is it fast or slow compared to the tested frequency? BR, Hazem Hegazy Development Engineer IBIS & TAU Modeling Team Mentor Graphics Tel: +20(2) 4135458 Mobile: +20(10) 6052154 Fax: +20(2) 4141306 - -----Original Message----- From: Nirav Patel [mailto:nirav@agere.com] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 8:05 AM To: ibis-users@eda.org; ibis@eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS issue at high frequencies IBIS gurus, We are using Avanti HSPICE to correlate the IBIS model performance to spice. We notice that the model starts misbehaving abruptly as we increase the toggle rate. Our observation has been that the onset of this misbehavior is a function of the delay through the buffer. Buffers that have long propagation delays tend to misbehave at lower toggle rates. Does anybody have a clue on what may be the cause of this issue? Any help will be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance. - --Nirav |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24F33.2847DCA1 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [IBIS-Users] IBIS issue at high frequencies

Hi,
Should I ask at which rate or rise/fall time you = generate the model? I mean, the stimulus of the input side while = extracting wave form tables is it fast or slow compared to the tested = frequency?

BR,

Hazem Hegazy
Development Engineer
IBIS & TAU Modeling Team
Mentor Graphics
Tel: +20(2) 4135458
Mobile: +20(10) 6052154
Fax: +20(2) 4141306


-----Original Message-----
From: Nirav Patel [mailto:nirav@agere.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 8:05 AM
To: ibis-users@eda.org; ibis@eda.org
Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS issue at high = frequencies


IBIS gurus,

We are using Avanti HSPICE to correlate the IBIS =
model performance to spice. We notice that the model =
starts misbehaving abruptly as we increase the = toggle
rate.

Our observation has been that the onset of = this
misbehavior is a function of the delay through = the
buffer. Buffers that have long propagation = delays
tend to misbehave at lower toggle rates.

Does anybody have a clue on what may be the = cause
of this issue? Any help will be very much = appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

--Nirav
|--------------------------------------------------------------= - ----
|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email = majordomo@eda.org
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|  unsubscribe = ibis       <optional e-mail address, = if different>
|  unsubscribe ibis-users <optional e-mail = address, if different>
|
|or email a written request to = ibis-request@eda.org.
|
|IBIS reflector archives exist under:
|
|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/  = Recent
|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/  = Recent
|  http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/  &nbs= p;       E-mail since 1993

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C24F33.2847DCA1-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 12:46:33 +0200 From: herbert_lage@agilent.com Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] IBIS issue at high frequencies Hi Nirav, I am not quite sure that you have the same problem as I had with Avanti HSpice a little while ago. I encountered funny effects when a buffer was switched before the end of a waveform was reached, e.g. if a waveform was 1.2ns long but I swiched/toggled the buffer again after less than 1.2ns. I got spikes in the transient analysis. These went away when I toggled the buffer at (1.2+ x)ns. When I create IBIS models I now make sure that the waveforms are shorter than the fastest bit period the part is intended to run at. I do that by cutting the lead-in time (in a consistent manner for all corners). Below is an excerpt of a conversation that I had with an IBIS model user: > I believe that the downward spike has to do with the way > HSpice interprets the IBIS model. > > The downspike only occurs when the bit pattern is very short > and the simulator jumps straight from the falling waveform of > the IBIS file to the rising waveform. Why this creates a spike > is a mystery to me at the moment, as the curves nicely match up. > It does not occur in the Ones either, only in the Zeros. > > I was able to fix it by shortening the falling and rising > waveforms so that the simulator is forced to use the static > pullup/pulldown curves before it invokes another waveform. This effect may well depend on the version of HSpice. I hope this helps, Best Regards, Herbert. - -----Original Message----- From: Nirav Patel [mailto:nirav@agere.com] Sent: 29 August 2002 07:05 To: ibis-users@eda.org; ibis@eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS issue at high frequencies IBIS gurus, We are using Avanti HSPICE to correlate the IBIS model performance to spice. We notice that the model starts misbehaving abruptly as we increase the toggle rate. Our observation has been that the onset of this misbehavior is a function of the delay through the buffer. Buffers that have long propagation delays tend to misbehave at lower toggle rates. Does anybody have a clue on what may be the cause of this issue? Any help will be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance. - --Nirav |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:03:55 +0530 From: Nirav Patel Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] IBIS issue at high frequencies Hazem Hegazy, Thanks for your suggestions. I made rise/fall time same as test frequency but problem remained same. Million thanks to Herbert. I had same problem as he described, before following his suggestions. Thanks, Nirav |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:02:43 -0400 From: "Todd Westerhoff" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] IBIS issue at high frequencies If you attempt to switch the buffer before the end of the V-T curve sweep, then you have an abrupt change in the buffer's output state. The buffer jumps from the point on the transient curve that was switching to the start point on the curve you are transitioning to. You'll see the same problem at any frequency if the DC settling points of the rise and fall curves are different. If your rise curve settles at 2.5V (as an example), and the corresponding fall curve starts at 2.3V, then there will be an abrupt change (and "spike")at the start of the falling edge. Bottom line: Herbert is right - attempting to switch an IBIS buffer before it finishes the V-T sweep can cause weird problems. Because each simulator's IBIS implementation is a bit different, the problems you will see can vary. IBIS models weren't meant to model inertial delays, and they don't ... Todd. Todd Westerhoff Signal Integrity Engineer Cisco Systems 250 Apollo Drive - Chelmsford, MA - 01824 email:twesterh@cisco.com ph: 978-497-0272 ============================================ "When did the choices get so hard, with so much more at stake? Life gets mighty precious when there's less of it to waste" - - Bonnie Raitt, "Nick of Time" - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org]On Behalf Of herbert_lage@agilent.com Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 6:47 AM To: ibis-users@eda.org; ibis@eda.org Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] IBIS issue at high frequencies Hi Nirav, I am not quite sure that you have the same problem as I had with Avanti HSpice a little while ago. I encountered funny effects when a buffer was switched before the end of a waveform was reached, e.g. if a waveform was 1.2ns long but I swiched/toggled the buffer again after less than 1.2ns. I got spikes in the transient analysis. These went away when I toggled the buffer at (1.2+ x)ns. When I create IBIS models I now make sure that the waveforms are shorter than the fastest bit period the part is intended to run at. I do that by cutting the lead-in time (in a consistent manner for all corners). Below is an excerpt of a conversation that I had with an IBIS model user: > I believe that the downward spike has to do with the way > HSpice interprets the IBIS model. > > The downspike only occurs when the bit pattern is very short > and the simulator jumps straight from the falling waveform of > the IBIS file to the rising waveform. Why this creates a spike > is a mystery to me at the moment, as the curves nicely match up. > It does not occur in the Ones either, only in the Zeros. > > I was able to fix it by shortening the falling and rising > waveforms so that the simulator is forced to use the static > pullup/pulldown curves before it invokes another waveform. This effect may well depend on the version of HSpice. I hope this helps, Best Regards, Herbert. - -----Original Message----- From: Nirav Patel [mailto:nirav@agere.com] Sent: 29 August 2002 07:05 To: ibis-users@eda.org; ibis@eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS issue at high frequencies IBIS gurus, We are using Avanti HSPICE to correlate the IBIS model performance to spice. We notice that the model starts misbehaving abruptly as we increase the toggle rate. Our observation has been that the onset of this misbehavior is a function of the delay through the buffer. Buffers that have long propagation delays tend to misbehave at lower toggle rates. Does anybody have a clue on what may be the cause of this issue? Any help will be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance. - --Nirav |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 12:27:35 -0500 From: "Haque, Moshiul" Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS model for FET switch IBIS Gurus, I am trying to model a switch with parallel NMOS and PMOS. I am kind of confused about the description of Series Mosfet keyword in IBIS Version 4 specification. The description says that either of the FET's could be removed. Thus this model covers all four conditions , off, single NMOS, single PMOS and parallel NMOS/PMOS. 1) Does that mean that I have to model NMOS, PMOS and off condition separately? Or only one Series Mosfet keyword with different VDS is sufficient to model the switch. 2) How to model the off condition? I thought to model off condition series current keyword with off sub parameter is necessary. 3) What would be appropriate keyword to model parallel FET switches, series current or series mosfet? I have tried to model the switch with series switch keyword. One problem with this type of model is the error generated due to decreasing current. In the IBISCHK3.2.9 version the error has been changed to warning. But lot of the simulator uses the older version of IBISCHK and my concern is that will this error prevent the simulator from simulating? Appreciate any suggestions. Regards Moshiul Haque Standard Linear and Logic Marketing Texas Instruments Incorporated Ph: (903) 868-7153 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 11:57:00 -0700 From: "Ross, Bob" Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] IBIS model for FET switch Moshiul: Some responses are below in your text. Bob Ross Mentor Graphics "Haque, Moshiul" wrote: > > IBIS Gurus, > I am trying to model a switch with parallel NMOS and PMOS. I am kind of > confused about the description of Series Mosfet keyword in IBIS Version 4 > specification. The description says that either of the FET's could be > removed. Thus this model covers all four conditions , off, single NMOS, > single PMOS and parallel NMOS/PMOS. > > 1) Does that mean that I have to model NMOS, PMOS and off condition > separately? No, do the I-V extraction on the total switch for a given Vgs. Or only one Series Mosfet keyword with different VDS is > sufficient to model the switch. Yes. > 2) How to model the off condition? I thought to model off condition series > current keyword with off sub parameter is necessary. Actually the [Off] keyword is necessary. Also, the Off subparameter is normally listed in the [Series Switch Groups] table if a completely off (High-Z or whatever) condition exists. > 3) What would be appropriate keyword to model parallel FET switches, series > current or series mosfet? [Series MOSFET] since it captures some "across" impedance changes as a function of actual input voltage at one terminal. > > I have tried to model the switch with series switch keyword. One problem > with this type of model is the error generated due to decreasing current. In > the IBISCHK3.2.9 version the error has been changed to warning. But lot of > the simulator uses the older version of IBISCHK and my concern is that will > this error prevent the simulator from simulating? No. Most simulators will allow Warning messages, but will reject models with Error messages. Some Warnings are informational to alert the user of some internal values or characteristics in an otherwise technically correct model. There might be philosophical arguments about allowing this, but that is currently the reason some messages (such as large package model values) exist. The non-monotonic I-V characteristic is technically correct, but some EDA tools might be limited. So the Warning message give some guidance to the user that this might be an issue. > > Appreciate any suggestions. > > Regards > Moshiul Haque > Standard Linear and Logic Marketing > Texas Instruments Incorporated > Ph: (903) 868-7153 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:17:48 -0700 From: Abdulrahman Rafiq Subject: [IBIS-Users] Re: Question: Obtaining I/V and Switiching Info via lab measurments - --------------BD30FB5FF6B18916D029F6D9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Ibis users, Could some explain how one would go about extracting data for ibis models via lab measurments? Is there a document which describes the ibis model creation via lab measurment in detail ? Thanks, Abdulrahman rafiq arafiqsi@yaoo.com - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | | Abdulrahman A. Rafiq :|: :|: Hardware Engineer :|||: :|||: HSS Engineering Services, (ISBU) .:|||||||:...:|||||||:. Direct: (408) 527-5540 c i s c o S y s t e m s Fax : (408) 526-6603 www.cisco.com email : arafiq@cisco.com 800-250-4800 epage : arafiq@epage.cisco.com URL1 : http://wwwin-sipd.cisco.com URL2 : http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/~arafiq - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------------BD30FB5FF6B18916D029F6D9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Ibis users,

Could some explain how one would go about extracting data for ibis models via lab measurments?  Is there a document which describes the ibis model creation via lab measurment in detail ?

Thanks,

Abdulrahman rafiq
arafiqsi@yaoo.com 

-- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
      |           |             Abdulrahman A. Rafiq  
     :|:         :|:            Hardware Engineer
    :|||:       :|||:           HSS Engineering Services, (ISBU)
 .:|||||||:...:|||||||:.        Direct: (408) 527-5540
 c i s c o S y s t e m s        Fax   : (408) 526-6603
      www.cisco.com             email : arafiq@cisco.com
      800-250-4800              epage : arafiq@epage.cisco.com
                                URL1  : http://wwwin-sipd.cisco.com
                                URL2  : http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/~arafiq
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  - --------------BD30FB5FF6B18916D029F6D9-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 19:00:28 +0530 From: akhilesh.chandra@st.com Subject: [IBIS-Users] need ibischk information Hello, Can you tell me plase how our ibischk check our models or any document regarding it. I got some errors during ibischk but unable to analyse it. Regards Akhilesh |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 08:32:12 -0700 From: "Peters, Stephen" Subject: [IBIS-Users] Agenda, IBIS Open Forum Teleconference 9/20 IBIS Open Forum Meeting Agenda for 9/20/02 Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode 1-916-356-2663 2 0597966 (International Dial-In: 1-617-801-9781) All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Stephen Peters and give the Reservation Number and Passcode. 8:00 Check-In, Intros, Announcements Peters - Intros of New IBIS Participants, Meeting Quorum Peters - Call for Patents Peters - Membership Update and Treasurers Report Peters - Review of Previous Meeting's Minutes (and ARs) Peters - Miscellany/Announcements All - Press & Web Page Updates Huq, All - New Models Available, Library Update Leventhal, All - Opens for New Issues All 8:15 Administrative and Project Discussions International/External Progress - IEC 62014-3 (ICEM) Integrated Circuits Electromagnetic Model Proposal (IEC 93/67/NP IBIS and EMC Simulation) Perrin/Peters PCB Conference East IBIS Summit Meeting Planning Peters/Green - Teleconference Bridge IBIS Version 4.0 Activities Peters - Documents - Parser IBIS Quality Committee Katz IBIS Model Review Committee Green New Administrative Issues All 8:45 Technical Discussion IBIS Connector and Futures Group Report Peters/Green BIRD74.1 - EMI Parameters de Burgh BIRD75.4 - Multi-Lingual IBIS Model Support Ross/Muranyi BIRD77.1 - Differential Subparameter Additions Ross BIRD78 - Comment Line Length Limit Green ibischk3 Status Ross - BUG71 - Monotonic Checking for Combined I-V Tables Haller - BUG73 - Extreme Non-Monotonic I-V Table Fails Muranyi End-Point Test - BUG74 - Missing Timing Test Load Warning Messages Haller - BUG75 - Successive EBD Checking Crashes Automated Green New Technical Issues All 9:50 Wrap Up and Next Meetings Plans Peters 9:55 Sign Off |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 14:02:50 -0400 From: Robert Haller Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] Re: Question: Obtaining I/V and Switiching Info via lab measurments I would suggest to check the IBIS Accuracy Handbook. http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/accuracy/ Regards, Bob Haller Abdulrahman Rafiq wrote: > Dear Ibis users, > > Could some explain how one would go about extracting data for ibis > models via lab measurments? Is there a document which describes the > ibis model creation via lab measurment in detail ? > > Thanks, > > Abdulrahman rafiq > arafiqsi@yaoo.com > > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | | Abdulrahman A. Rafiq > :|: :|: Hardware Engineer > :|||: :|||: HSS Engineering Services, (ISBU) > .:|||||||:...:|||||||:. Direct: (408) 527-5540 > c i s c o S y s t e m s Fax : (408) 526-6603 > www.cisco.com email : arafiq@cisco.com > 800-250-4800 epage : arafiq@epage.cisco.com > URL1 : http://wwwin-sipd.cisco.com > URL2 : http://wwwin-people.cisco.com/~arafiq > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - -- Robert J. Haller (rhaller@sisoft.com) Principal Consultant Signal Integrity Software Inc. 6 Clock Tower Place, Suite 250 Maynard, MA 01754 Phone: (978) 461-0449, ext 15 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:47:45 +0530 From: akhilesh.chandra@st.com Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS problem Hello, I got one problem in my during ibischk ERROR - Model BD2TARDQP_TC_40: The [Rising Waveform] with [R_fixture]=50 Ohms and [V_fixture]=3.3V has TYP column DC endpoints of 2.44V and 3.30v, but an equivalent load applied to the model's I-V tables yields different voltages ( 2.30V and 3.30V) My cell's Rising Waveform have 2.44V & 3.30V dc end ponit but I am unable to find out how IBISCHK got 2.30V & 3.30V DC end point. Can anyone tell me please how IBISCHK got DC endpoint. Regards Akhilesh |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:28:57 -0400 From: Kevin Fisher Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] IBIS problem Akhilesh, For each VT curve entry in a model, the IBIS parser will take the fixture circuit used for that VT curve and draw a load line representing the circuit against the IV curves of the same process corner. The DC endpoints found, which in your example were 2.30V and 3.30V, are determined as the intersection of the load line with the pullup (+ power clamp if I/O) and pulldown (+gnd clamp if I/O) IV curves. There are few possible causes for this descrepency, however in my experience, the most common reason was that the VT curves never reach the DC values. Either the VT curves simulation was not run long enough, or the extraction of the VT curves did not get the whole curve. I would first check the VT curves and see if it looks like they've reached DC. Hope this helps. Kevin - -- Kevin M. Fisher Consultant Signal Integrity Software Inc. 6 Clock Tower Place, Suite 250 Maynard, MA 01754 Phone: (978) 461-0449, ext 11 http://www.sisoft.com akhilesh.chandra@st.com wrote: >Hello, > I got one problem in my during ibischk > >ERROR - Model BD2TARDQP_TC_40: The [Rising Waveform] > with [R_fixture]=50 Ohms and [V_fixture]=3.3V > has TYP column DC endpoints of 2.44V and 3.30v, but > an equivalent load applied to the model's I-V tables yields > different voltages ( 2.30V and 3.30V) > > My cell's Rising Waveform have 2.44V & 3.30V dc end ponit but I am >unable to find out how IBISCHK got 2.30V & 3.30V DC end point. > > Can anyone tell me please how IBISCHK got DC endpoint. > >Regards >Akhilesh >|------------------------------------------------------------------ >|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org >|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: >| >| help >| subscribe ibis >| subscribe ibis-users >| unsubscribe ibis >| unsubscribe ibis-users >| >|or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. >| >|IBIS reflector archives exist under: >| >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 > > |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 14:41:49 +0530 From: Anshuli Goel Subject: [IBIS-Users] s2ibis2 validity Hi IBIS users I am generating the IBIS models using s2ibis2 utility. I wanted to know how much reliable is this utility in doing this and is there any way to validate the models obtained from this utility. Regards Anshuli |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 08:18:54 -0400 From: Robert Haller Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] s2ibis2 validity Anshuli, This utility works reasonably well after you come up the learning curve. A lot of companies create there own custom versions as well. Once you have created an IBIS model, to validate the results, you simply run both models (spice and IBIS) through your simulator of choice and compare the results. regards, bob - -- Robert J. Haller (rhaller@sisoft.com) Principal Consultant Signal Integrity Software Inc. 6 Clock Tower Place, Suite 250 Maynard, MA 01754 Phone: (978) 461-0449, ext 15 Anshuli Goel wrote: > Hi IBIS users > > I am generating the IBIS models using s2ibis2 utility. I wanted to know > how much reliable is this utility in doing this and is there any way to > validate the models obtained from this utility. > > Regards > Anshuli > > > |------------------------------------------------------------------ > |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org > |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: > | > | help > | subscribe ibis > | subscribe ibis-users > | unsubscribe ibis > | unsubscribe ibis-users > | > |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. > | > |IBIS reflector archives exist under: > | > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 08:46:53 -0400 From: Peter LaFlamme Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] IBIS problem Hi Akhilesh, Based on the error you got I think that there are two possibilities that come up. First, because the endpoint that is causing the error is the starting point for the rising waveform. You may want to look at the plot of this waveform. It is possible that the spice simulation has a strange starting point or you get a slight ringing on the output before the buffer switches. Secondly, it is possible that the load in your simulation is different than is specified. I think that this is probably not the case, but you may want to look at the ".sp" file to see the actual loading. If this is the only error, or warning that you got on the VT curves then I think that you will find that it is probably one of the above two possibilities. Good Luck, Peter P.s. If you want to send me the .ibs file I can take a quick look and see if I can see the discrepancy. akhilesh.chandra@st.com wrote: > > Hello, > I got one problem in my during ibischk > > ERROR - Model BD2TARDQP_TC_40: The [Rising Waveform] > with [R_fixture]=50 Ohms and [V_fixture]=3.3V > has TYP column DC endpoints of 2.44V and 3.30v, but > an equivalent load applied to the model's I-V tables yields > different voltages ( 2.30V and 3.30V) > > My cell's Rising Waveform have 2.44V & 3.30V dc end ponit but I am > unable to find out how IBISCHK got 2.30V & 3.30V DC end point. > > Can anyone tell me please how IBISCHK got DC endpoint. > > Regards > Akhilesh > |------------------------------------------------------------------ > |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org > |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: > | > | help > | subscribe ibis > | subscribe ibis-users > | unsubscribe ibis > | unsubscribe ibis-users > | > |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. > | > |IBIS reflector archives exist under: > | > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 - -- Peter LaFlamme Applied Micro Circuits Corp. System Applications Engineer 200 Minuteman Rd, 3rd Floor Andover, MA 01810 978-247-8470 phone 978-623-0055 Fax |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:59:45 -0400 From: "Mike LaBonte" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] IBIS problem Ibischk must have calculated the current to be 20mA, since (3.3v - 2.30v) / 50ohms = 20mA. Since the initial endpoint of a rising edge is examined here, the Pulldown I/V curve must be drawing 20mA at 2.3V. I am wondering if one of the clamp curves has significant leakage current within the buffer operating range, and ibischk is ignoring other curves in it's calculation. Although a too-short simulation duration easily causes mismatches at the final endpoint, it is unusual to see the initial point come out wrong. Mike LaBonte - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org]On Behalf Of akhilesh.chandra@st.com Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 6:18 AM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS problem Hello, I got one problem in my during ibischk ERROR - Model BD2TARDQP_TC_40: The [Rising Waveform] with [R_fixture]=50 Ohms and [V_fixture]=3.3V has TYP column DC endpoints of 2.44V and 3.30v, but an equivalent load applied to the model's I-V tables yields different voltages ( 2.30V and 3.30V) My cell's Rising Waveform have 2.44V & 3.30V dc end ponit but I am unable to find out how IBISCHK got 2.30V & 3.30V DC end point. Can anyone tell me please how IBISCHK got DC endpoint. Regards Akhilesh |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 08:46:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Syed Huq Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] s2ibis2 validity Anshuli, The reliability of the output data is based on how well the translation setup was done. It is also based on the original SPICE models you are trying to translate. After all, you are simply getting the V/I and V/T output coming out of your spice simulation and formatting it to meet the IBIS standard. So, review the IBIS model and validate the model on a simulator. Syed >Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 14:41:49 +0530 >From: Anshuli Goel >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: "ibis-users@eda.org" >Subject: [IBIS-Users] s2ibis2 validity >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Hi IBIS users > >I am generating the IBIS models using s2ibis2 utility. I wanted to know >how much reliable is this utility in doing this and is there any way to >validate the models obtained from this utility. > >Regards >Anshuli > > |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:37:07 +0530 (IST) From: S Jairam Subject: [IBIS-Users] On IBIS Model Generation Hi, This might sound very dumb a question, but I dont have an answer to this. When IBIS model generation for an IO buffer is in progress, only one package load (a set of RLC parameters) is used to calculate all the IV curves. Is that valid ? Because in such a case the I-V curves of buffer would then be dependent of the package load. Shouldn't it be that the calculation be done for various load points with each load-point providing a set of I-V curves. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks and Regards, Jairam. - -- # S.Jairam, # Texas Instruments Bangalore, # E-Mail: sjairam@ti.com # Phone : 080 5099 689 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 23:26:24 -0700 From: "Mohan, Prabhu" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] On IBIS Model Generation Hi Jairam, The package parameters (RLC) are NOT taken into account while generating the IBIS model. They are to be provided seperately to facilitate simulation using other (SI) tools. Ragards Prabhu/~ - -----Original Message----- From: S Jairam [mailto:sjairam@ti.com] Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 10:07 PM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users] On IBIS Model Generation Hi, This might sound very dumb a question, but I dont have an answer to this. When IBIS model generation for an IO buffer is in progress, only one package load (a set of RLC parameters) is used to calculate all the IV curves. Is that valid ? Because in such a case the I-V curves of buffer would then be dependent of the package load. Shouldn't it be that the calculation be done for various load points with each load-point providing a set of I-V curves. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks and Regards, Jairam. - -- # S.Jairam, # Texas Instruments Bangalore, # E-Mail: sjairam@ti.com # Phone : 080 5099 689 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:18:19 +0530 (IST) From: S Jairam Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] On IBIS Model Generation Hi Prabhu, Thanks for the answer. However the flavour of the question still remains the same. The buffer drive will depend on the load (might not just be the package load) that will be hooked up. Should not this again be varied for generating the IBIS model ? Thanks and Regards, Jairam. Mohan, Prabhu writes: #Hi Jairam, # #The package parameters (RLC) are NOT taken into account while generating the #IBIS model. They are to be provided seperately to facilitate simulation #using other (SI) tools. # #Ragards #Prabhu/~ # #-----Original Message----- #From: S Jairam [mailto:sjairam@ti.com] #Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 10:07 PM #To: ibis-users@eda.org #Subject: [IBIS-Users] On IBIS Model Generation # # # #Hi, # # This might sound very dumb a question, but I dont have an #answer to this. # # When IBIS model generation for an IO buffer is in progress, #only one package load (a set of RLC parameters) is used to calculate #all the IV curves. Is that valid ? Because in such a case the #I-V curves of buffer would then be dependent of the package load. # # Shouldn't it be that the calculation be done for various load #points with each load-point providing a set of I-V curves. # #Please correct me if I am wrong. # #Thanks and Regards, #Jairam. #-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 00:41:35 -0700 From: "Mohan, Prabhu" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] On IBIS Model Generation Hi Jairam, You are correct. The buffers characteristics will vary with load. Since there is no real way to know what load the buffer will be driving and fast edge rates make traces look like 50ohm transmission lines, most models use 50ohm pullup and pulldown to derive the VT curves. At this point I think it is upto the simulator vendor to come up with the appropriate algorithm to extract buffer characteristics for other loads. Hope that was of some help. Prabhu/~ - -----Original Message----- From: S Jairam [mailto:sjairam@ti.com] Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 11:48 PM To: Mohan, Prabhu Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] On IBIS Model Generation Hi Prabhu, Thanks for the answer. However the flavour of the question still remains the same. The buffer drive will depend on the load (might not just be the package load) that will be hooked up. Should not this again be varied for generating the IBIS model ? Thanks and Regards, Jairam. Mohan, Prabhu writes: #Hi Jairam, # #The package parameters (RLC) are NOT taken into account while generating the #IBIS model. They are to be provided seperately to facilitate simulation #using other (SI) tools. # #Ragards #Prabhu/~ # #-----Original Message----- #From: S Jairam [mailto:sjairam@ti.com] #Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 10:07 PM #To: ibis-users@eda.org #Subject: [IBIS-Users] On IBIS Model Generation # # # #Hi, # # This might sound very dumb a question, but I dont have an #answer to this. # # When IBIS model generation for an IO buffer is in progress, #only one package load (a set of RLC parameters) is used to calculate #all the IV curves. Is that valid ? Because in such a case the #I-V curves of buffer would then be dependent of the package load. # # Shouldn't it be that the calculation be done for various load #points with each load-point providing a set of I-V curves. # #Please correct me if I am wrong. # #Thanks and Regards, #Jairam. #-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:15:58 +0530 (IST) From: S Jairam Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] On IBIS Model Generation Prabhu / Eckhard Thanks for your responses. This makes it clear. So, the assumption that the buffers sees a proper termination, needs to be adhered. Regards, Jairam. Mohan, Prabhu writes: #Hi Jairam, # #You are correct. The buffers characteristics will vary with load. #Since there is no real way to know what load the buffer will be driving #and fast edge rates make traces look like 50ohm transmission lines, #most models use 50ohm pullup and pulldown to derive the VT curves. # #At this point I think it is upto the simulator vendor to come up #with the appropriate algorithm to extract buffer characteristics #for other loads. # #Hope that was of some help. # #Prabhu/~ # #-----Original Message----- #From: S Jairam [mailto:sjairam@ti.com] #Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 11:48 PM #To: Mohan, Prabhu #Cc: ibis-users@eda.org #Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] On IBIS Model Generation # # # #Hi Prabhu, # #Thanks for the answer. However the flavour of the question still #remains the same. The buffer drive will depend on the load (might not #just be the package load) that will be hooked up. Should not this #again be varied for generating the IBIS model ? # #Thanks and Regards, #Jairam. # # #Mohan, Prabhu writes: ##Hi Jairam, ## ##The package parameters (RLC) are NOT taken into account while generating #the ##IBIS model. They are to be provided seperately to facilitate simulation ##using other (SI) tools. ## ##Ragards ##Prabhu/~ ## ##-----Original Message----- ##From: S Jairam [mailto:sjairam@ti.com] ##Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 10:07 PM ##To: ibis-users@eda.org ##Subject: [IBIS-Users] On IBIS Model Generation ## ## ## ##Hi, ## ## This might sound very dumb a question, but I dont have an ##answer to this. ## ## When IBIS model generation for an IO buffer is in progress, ##only one package load (a set of RLC parameters) is used to calculate ##all the IV curves. Is that valid ? Because in such a case the ##I-V curves of buffer would then be dependent of the package load. ## ## Shouldn't it be that the calculation be done for various load ##points with each load-point providing a set of I-V curves. ## ##Please correct me if I am wrong. ## ##Thanks and Regards, ##Jairam. ##-- - -- # S.Jairam, # Texas Instruments Bangalore, # E-Mail: sjairam@ti.com # Phone : 080 5099 689 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:15:53 -0400 From: "Ingraham, Andrew" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] On IBIS Model Generation Jairam, The I-V curves are essentially static or DC, so even if they did include the package, only the package resistance would affect them. L and C would not. They are also load-independent. Their purpose is to "map out" or describe the characteristics of the IO buffer alone. You may think of it as connecting a constant voltage source (or perhaps a current source) to the IO pin. At that voltage, you would measure some value of current, which depends on the strength of the IO buffer alone. Repeat at other voltage values to create a curve. I think it is extremely rare for a buffer's drive strength to depend on the load. (Actually, there are some technologies that are capable of adjusting themselves against their loads; but once so adjusted, the drive strength remains constant until the next re-cal.) So except for rare cases, while the output current does depend on the load as you say, the drive strength, i.e., the shape and magnitude of the I-V curve, does not. On the other hand, the V-T curves do greatly depend on load; and for that reason, it is highly desirable for the model creator to have at least one V-T curve whose test load fixture is similar to the actual load that the customer will use. The simulator tool will need to extrapolate or interpolate around V-T curves in order to derive the waveform when a somewhat different load is used. Accuracy is theoretically enhanced when the actual load is very similar to the test load. An exact termination is not required, but the simulator needs to be "smart" enough to figure out what to do. Regards, Andy |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:38:05 +0200 From: Ege Engin Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] On IBIS Model Generation Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format. - --------------E86FDF1BAB148215066738B7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew, I-V and V-T curves are both obtained when the (CMOS) driver is connected to an ideal supply voltage. The resultant driver model is a 2-pole model, such that the signal return current is assumed to flow back on the AC short-circuited power and/or ground. Do you think, it is possible to use/extend IBIS (similar to the 4-terminal device model in the japanese IMIC) to include the power supply noise? You mentioned that the V-T curves at various loads is required to enhance accuracy. Maybe, a possible way to include the power-supply noise is to have all these V-T (and V-I) curves at various power-supply levels as well. I think the simulator needs to be "smarter" in this case to figure out what to do. Regards, Ege "Ingraham, Andrew" schrieb: > > Jairam, > > The I-V curves are essentially static or DC, so even if they did include the package, only the package resistance would affect them. L and C would not. > > They are also load-independent. Their purpose is to "map out" or describe the characteristics of the IO buffer alone. You may think of it as connecting a constant voltage source (or perhaps a current source) to the IO pin. At that voltage, you would measure some value of current, which depends on the strength of the IO buffer alone. Repeat at other voltage values to create a curve. > > I think it is extremely rare for a buffer's drive strength to depend on the load. (Actually, there are some technologies that are capable of adjusting themselves against their loads; but once so adjusted, the drive strength remains constant until the next re-cal.) So except for rare cases, while the output current does depend on the load as you say, the drive strength, i.e., the shape and magnitude of the I-V curve, does not. > > On the other hand, the V-T curves do greatly depend on load; and for that reason, it is highly desirable for the model creator to have at least one V-T curve whose test load fixture is similar to the actual load that the customer will use. The simulator tool will need to extrapolate or interpolate around V-T curves in order to derive the waveform when a somewhat different load is used. Accuracy is theoretically enhanced when the actual load is very similar to the test load. An exact termination is not required, but the simulator needs to be "smart" enough to figure out what to do. > > Regards, > Andy > > |------------------------------------------------------------------ > |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org > |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: > | > | help > | subscribe ibis > | subscribe ibis-users > | unsubscribe ibis > | unsubscribe ibis-users > | > |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. > | > |IBIS reflector archives exist under: > | > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 - --------------E86FDF1BAB148215066738B7 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=iso-8859-9; name="engin.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Visitenkarte für Ege Engin Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="engin.vcf" begin:vcard n:Engin;Ege tel;fax:+49-30-46403 158 tel;work:+49-30-46403 150 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Fraunhofer IZM;Advanced System Engineering adr:;;Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25;Berlin;;13355;Germany version:2.1 email;internet:engin@izm.fraunhofer.de fn:Ege Engin end:vcard - --------------E86FDF1BAB148215066738B7-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ End of ibis-users V1 #9 ***********************