From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org (ibis-users) To: ibis-users-digest@eda.org Subject: ibis-users V1 #36 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ibis-users@eda.org Errors-To: owner-ibis-users@eda.org Precedence: bulk ibis-users Thursday, March 11 2004 Volume 01 : Number 036 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:45:35 -0800 From: "Angulo, John" Subject: [IBIS-Users] FW: Questions on numbers in IBIS The following is posted on behalf of Shawn Silverman at Quantic EMC, and Roy Leventhal. Please send any private replies to shawn@quantic-emc.com and Roy.Leventhal@ieee.org. - -------------------- From: Shawn Silverman [mailto:shawn@quantic-emc.com] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 4:18 PM To: Roy Leventhal Subject: Questions on numbers in IBIS Hello, Roy. I have some confusion regarding numbers in an IBIS file. It states in section 3.8 that numbers with a suffix are meant to be interpreted as a number followed by any number of letters, where the first letter gives the actual scaling. For example, 3.0mOhms means 3.0e-3. Now, there are several uses with voltages and resistances where this rule has some exceptions. I can specify 3.0V for voltage and 3.0ohm for ohms. Doesn't this violate the rules and therefore incorrect? Should I make a special case for "V" and "ohm" as a suffix when I parse numbers and ignore them? What happens if there is a unit with the same starting letter as a valid scaling suffix. Eg. 'f' as in 3.0farad? Thanks! -Shawn |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:26:10 -0700 From: rrwolff@micron.com Subject: [IBIS-Users] [IBIS] IBIS Summit minutes (02/20/04) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3FFCB.6F0DDB70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3FFCB.6F0DDB70 Content-Type: text/plain; name="m022004s.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 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http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 22:26:41 +0530 From: Alok Rungta Subject: [IBIS-Users]Difference in rise-fall waveform due to c_comp!! Hello IBIS users, I am trying to understand how the simulation tool is using the c_comp parameter in the ibis model. For the same ibis model i just change the c_comp parameter and resimulated to see if there are any differences in the observed output voltage waveform. When using a cap as a load I see differences in both the rise and the fall transition .. but when using a pure resistive load I find that both the models on simulation give the same rise waveform but different fall waveforms. Is this the expected behavior ?? Isnt c_comp supposed to be used only in case of reflection ?? Thanks in Anticipation Alok Rungta |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:29:01 -0800 From: "Lynne Green" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] FW: Questions on numbers in IBIS Actually, it is even better than that. Many tools check just the first letter to see if it is a scaling prefix, and ignore anything else. So valid voltages would include 3.0, 3.0V, 3.0sec, 3.0ohms, etc. Since the units are not required, many IBIS files leave the units out. Best regards, Lynne Green - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Angulo, John Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 11:46 AM To: 'ibis-users@eda.org' Subject: [IBIS-Users] FW: Questions on numbers in IBIS The following is posted on behalf of Shawn Silverman at Quantic EMC, and Roy Leventhal. Please send any private replies to shawn@quantic-emc.com and Roy.Leventhal@ieee.org. - -------------------- From: Shawn Silverman [mailto:shawn@quantic-emc.com] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 4:18 PM To: Roy Leventhal Subject: Questions on numbers in IBIS Hello, Roy. I have some confusion regarding numbers in an IBIS file. It states in section 3.8 that numbers with a suffix are meant to be interpreted as a number followed by any number of letters, where the first letter gives the actual scaling. For example, 3.0mOhms means 3.0e-3. Now, there are several uses with voltages and resistances where this rule has some exceptions. I can specify 3.0V for voltage and 3.0ohm for ohms. Doesn't this violate the rules and therefore incorrect? Should I make a special case for "V" and "ohm" as a suffix when I parse numbers and ignore them? What happens if there is a unit with the same starting letter as a valid scaling suffix. Eg. 'f' as in 3.0farad? Thanks! -Shawn |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:32:05 -0800 From: "Muranyi, Arpad" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users]Difference in rise-fall waveform due to c_comp!! Alok, What you see is the correct behavior. The meaning of C_comp is die capacitance which includes everything that is on the die, pad, metal, transistors, etc... When you obtain waveforms (Vt curves), this capacitance is in place, so the waveform includes its effects. For this reason, IBIS simulators do not use this capacitance to load the waveform that is in the IBIS model, i.e. no matter what value you provide for C_comp, the simulation waveforms will remain the same (within reasonable limits) with the same resistive load on the output. On the other hand, any external capacitance connected to the output of the IBIS model will change its simulation waveforms, because that will act as a load to the buffer. On the other hand, the value of C_comp will have an effect the reflections which come to the buffer from the outside. In summary, C_comp is invisible from the inside out, but visible from the outside in. I hope this helps, Arpad Muranyi Intel Corporation ========================================================= - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org]On Behalf Of Alok Rungta Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 8:57 AM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users]Difference in rise-fall waveform due to c_comp!! Hello IBIS users, I am trying to understand how the simulation tool is using the c_comp parameter in the ibis model. For the same ibis model i just change the c_comp parameter and resimulated to see if there are any differences in the observed output voltage waveform. When using a cap as a load I see differences in both the rise and the fall transition .. but when using a pure resistive load I find that both the models on simulation give the same rise waveform but different fall waveforms. Is this the expected behavior ?? Isnt c_comp supposed to be used only in case of reflection ?? Thanks in Anticipation Alok Rungta |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:04:41 -0800 From: "Angulo, John" Subject: [IBIS-Users] Assistance The following is posted on behalf of Patricia Barnes at Lockheed Martin. Please send any private replies to patricia.l.barnes@lmco.com. - ----------------------------- I am extremely new to IBIS. Been asked to do a signal integrity analysis to our CCA using IBIS models. I have an ASIC, DSP, SRAM, and a FLASH which are all on the same net and need to perform some sort of signal integrity modeling. Does IBIS modeling involve more than one component? Composed as a system model (parallel components)? Will IBIS help me? or is it useful for only ONE component? How do you create a model for parts that are 'obsolete' and unsupported by their respective vendors? What equipment and how do I set up an accurate test to get the I/V, V/dt curves of these older parts? I'm unable to find models for these older components on the website search. Does anyone have a TMS320C40 model? |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 14:13:54 +0530 From: Alok Rungta Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users]Difference in rise-fall waveform due to c_comp!! Arpad, I am not sure if I understood things correctly .. First I would further clarify the experiment I did. I simulated a simple circuit with a buffer(ibis model) and a load. I tried two loads one resistive and other only cap. For each load condition I did 2 simulations with different ibis model files wherein in the 2nd simulation I just changed the c_comp(made it 10x the actual) value to see the effect of this parameter on the simulation. What I observe is: For Resistive load:(which is same as the load I used for generating the V-t curve in IBIS model): 1>When there is a transition from low to high the waveform in both the cases(with actual ibis model of the buffer and with the one which has c_comp modified to 10x) is exactly same. 2>But when there is a fall transition at output the waveforms are different for two cases. For Cap load: 3> Waveform is different for the rise case in both the cases. 4> Waveform is different for the fall cases in both the cases. From what I understand observation 2 can be explained because of current flowing in the buffer(outside in) and thus c-comp coming in picture.observation 1 => no role of c_comp in low to high transition because its inside out. Observation 4 can also be attributed to an outside in effect where c_comp comes into effect. But observation 3 is what I am not very clear about .. One thing I deduce is that probably the v-t curves in the ibis model are generated for resistive loads so when it comes to resistive loads the simulator just uses IV curve and V-t curves in the model for interpolation and generates the curve(accuracy depending on difference between the loads you simuated for and load being used in the simuation). When using the cap. load it cannot possibly use this V-t curve in the same way because the load is of entirely different nature. So it has to look at the c-comp. How is it using the IV information in this case is not very clear to me ? Can you please throw some more light on this ... Thanks in Anticipation Alok Rungta Muranyi, Arpad wrote: >Alok, > >What you see is the correct behavior. > >The meaning of C_comp is die capacitance which includes >everything that is on the die, pad, metal, transistors, >etc... When you obtain waveforms (Vt curves), this >capacitance is in place, so the waveform includes its >effects. For this reason, IBIS simulators do not use >this capacitance to load the waveform that is in the >IBIS model, i.e. no matter what value you provide for >C_comp, the simulation waveforms will remain the same >(within reasonable limits) with the same resistive >load on the output. On the other hand, any external >capacitance connected to the output of the IBIS model >will change its simulation waveforms, because that >will act as a load to the buffer. > >On the other hand, the value of C_comp will have an effect >the reflections which come to the buffer from the outside. > >In summary, C_comp is invisible from the inside out, but >visible from the outside in. > >I hope this helps, > >Arpad Muranyi >Intel Corporation >========================================================= > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org]On >Behalf Of Alok Rungta >Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 8:57 AM >To: ibis-users@eda.org >Subject: [IBIS-Users]Difference in rise-fall waveform due to c_comp!! > > >Hello IBIS users, > >I am trying to understand how the simulation tool is using the c_comp >parameter in the ibis model. For the same ibis model i just change the >c_comp parameter and resimulated to see if there are any differences in >the observed output voltage waveform. When using a cap as a load I see >differences in both the rise and the fall transition .. but when using >a pure resistive load I find that both the models on simulation give the >same rise waveform but different fall waveforms. Is this the expected >behavior ?? Isnt c_comp supposed to be used only in case of reflection ?? > >Thanks in Anticipation >Alok Rungta > > >|------------------------------------------------------------------ >|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org >|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: >| >| help >| subscribe ibis >| subscribe ibis-users >| unsubscribe ibis >| unsubscribe ibis-users >| >|or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. >| >|IBIS reflector archives exist under: >| >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 >|------------------------------------------------------------------ >|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org >|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: >| >| help >| subscribe ibis >| subscribe ibis-users >| unsubscribe ibis >| unsubscribe ibis-users >| >|or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. >| >|IBIS reflector archives exist under: >| >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 > > > > |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 09:59:49 -0500 From: Robert Haller Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] Assistance Patricia, I would first recommend reading some papers to become familiar with IBIS. A good place to start is http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis.htm An ibis model is of one component (or multiple components). By using a simulation tool you can instantiate multiple ibis models along with interconnect to form a system model. You may then simulate the interconnect of many components together. You should be able to perform the signal integrity analysis you want to do using IBIS models and an ibis simulator. There are a variety of ways to create models for 'obsolete parts. I wrote a paper on "Constructing Accurate Behavioral Buffers" that may answer a number of your questions and is available in the designcon98 preceding. regards, Bob Haller http://www.sisoft.com - -- Robert J. Haller (rhaller@sisoft.com) Principal Consultant Signal Integrity Software Inc. 6 Clock Tower Place, Suite 250 Maynard, MA 01754 Phone: (978) 461-0449, ext 15 Angulo, John wrote: > The following is posted on behalf of Patricia Barnes at Lockheed Martin. Please send any private replies to patricia.l.barnes@lmco.com. > ----------------------------- > I am extremely new to IBIS. Been asked to do a signal integrity analysis to our CCA using IBIS models. > I have an ASIC, DSP, SRAM, and a FLASH which are all on the same net and need to perform some sort of signal integrity modeling. > Does IBIS modeling involve more than one component? Composed as a system model (parallel components)? > Will IBIS help me? or is it useful for only ONE component? > How do you create a model for parts that are 'obsolete' and unsupported by their respective vendors > What equipment and how do I set up an accurate test to get the I/V, V/dt curves of these older parts? > I'm unable to find models for these older components on the website search. > Does anyone have a TMS320C40 model? |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 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ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 17:57:46 -0800 From: "Mohan, Prabhu" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] IBIS 4.0 parser (ibischk4) on-line! Hi All I tried downloading the ibisch4 for Sun 5. It fails to unzip using gunzip. There seems to be no problem with the windows version. I'm not sure where the problem is. Can someone verify this? Thanks Prabhu/~ - -----Original Message----- From: Mirmak, Michael [mailto:michael.mirmak@intel.com] Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 1:40 PM To: ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS 4.0 parser (ibischk4) on-line! The IBIS Open Forum is pleased to announce that the IBIS 4.0 specification golden parser "ibischk4" is on-line and available for download! Executables for Linux, HP 10, HP 11, Sun 5 and MS-DOS/Windows can be found at: http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/ibischk4/ Bugs may be reported using the "bugform.txt" template at http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/ibis_bugs/. Please send completed reports to ibis-bug@eda.org. - Michael Mirmak Intel Corp. Chair, EIA/IBIS Open Forum |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 08:33:03 +0530 From: Alok Rungta Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] IBIS 4.0 parser (ibischk4) on-line! Prabhu I could download and unzip(using gunzip) the ibischk4 for sun5 without any problem. Rgds Alok Rungta Texas Instruments Mohan, Prabhu wrote: >Hi All > >I tried downloading the ibisch4 for Sun 5. It fails to unzip using gunzip. >There seems to be no problem with the windows version. >I'm not sure where the problem is. Can someone verify this? > >Thanks >Prabhu/~ > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mirmak, Michael [mailto:michael.mirmak@intel.com] >Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 1:40 PM >To: ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org >Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS 4.0 parser (ibischk4) on-line! > > > >The IBIS Open Forum is pleased to announce that the IBIS 4.0 >specification golden parser "ibischk4" is on-line and available for >download! Executables for Linux, HP 10, HP 11, Sun 5 and MS-DOS/Windows >can be found at: > > http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/ibischk4/ > >Bugs may be reported using the "bugform.txt" template at >http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/ibis_bugs/. Please send completed reports >to ibis-bug@eda.org. > > - Michael Mirmak > Intel Corp. > Chair, EIA/IBIS Open Forum > >|------------------------------------------------------------------ >|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org >|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: >| >| help >| subscribe ibis >| subscribe ibis-users >| unsubscribe ibis >| unsubscribe ibis-users >| >|or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. >| >|IBIS reflector archives exist under: >| >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 >|------------------------------------------------------------------ >|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org >|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: >| >| help >| subscribe ibis >| subscribe ibis-users >| unsubscribe ibis >| unsubscribe ibis-users >| >|or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. >| >|IBIS reflector archives exist under: >| >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 > > > > |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:30:58 -0800 From: "Wyman Lo" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] IBIS 4.0 parser (ibischk4) on-line! Prabhu, did you try running the file itself as an executable? Perhaps it's a self-extracting file with a wrong file extension. (I recall seeing this in another ibis util file...) Wyman - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@server.eda.org]On Behalf Of Mohan, Prabhu Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 5:58 PM To: 'ibis-users@eda.org' Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] IBIS 4.0 parser (ibischk4) on-line! Hi All I tried downloading the ibisch4 for Sun 5. It fails to unzip using gunzip. There seems to be no problem with the windows version. I'm not sure where the problem is. Can someone verify this? Thanks Prabhu/~ - -----Original Message----- From: Mirmak, Michael [mailto:michael.mirmak@intel.com] Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 1:40 PM To: ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS 4.0 parser (ibischk4) on-line! The IBIS Open Forum is pleased to announce that the IBIS 4.0 specification golden parser "ibischk4" is on-line and available for download! Executables for Linux, HP 10, HP 11, Sun 5 and MS-DOS/Windows can be found at: http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/ibischk4/ Bugs may be reported using the "bugform.txt" template at http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/ibis_bugs/. Please send completed reports to ibis-bug@eda.org. - Michael Mirmak Intel Corp. Chair, EIA/IBIS Open Forum |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:40:54 -0800 From: "Eric Hsu" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] IBIS 4.0 parser (ibischk4) on-line! Hi Prabhu, I've tried that before and have same experience with you. The way I made it work is just rename this file without ".Z" and run it directly, then it work fine. I think actually this file is not compress file, but is original binary file. Best Regards, Eric Hsu Interface Technologies NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. 450 National Ave. Mountain View, CA 94043 650-961-6676 x198 This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information - -----Original Message----- From: Alok Rungta [mailto:a0875973@india.ti.com] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:03 PM To: ibis-users@server.eda.org Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] IBIS 4.0 parser (ibischk4) on-line! Prabhu I could download and unzip(using gunzip) the ibischk4 for sun5 without any problem. Rgds Alok Rungta Texas Instruments Mohan, Prabhu wrote: >Hi All > >I tried downloading the ibisch4 for Sun 5. It fails to unzip using gunzip. >There seems to be no problem with the windows version. >I'm not sure where the problem is. Can someone verify this? > >Thanks >Prabhu/~ > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mirmak, Michael [mailto:michael.mirmak@intel.com] >Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 1:40 PM >To: ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org >Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS 4.0 parser (ibischk4) on-line! > > > >The IBIS Open Forum is pleased to announce that the IBIS 4.0 >specification golden parser "ibischk4" is on-line and available for >download! Executables for Linux, HP 10, HP 11, Sun 5 and MS-DOS/Windows >can be found at: > > http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/ibischk4/ > >Bugs may be reported using the "bugform.txt" template at >http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/ibis_bugs/. Please send completed reports >to ibis-bug@eda.org. > > - Michael Mirmak > Intel Corp. > Chair, EIA/IBIS Open Forum > >|------------------------------------------------------------------ >|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org >|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: >| >| help >| subscribe ibis >| subscribe ibis-users >| unsubscribe ibis >| unsubscribe ibis-users >| >|or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. >| >|IBIS reflector archives exist under: >| >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 >|------------------------------------------------------------------ >|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org >|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: >| >| help >| subscribe ibis >| subscribe ibis-users >| unsubscribe ibis >| unsubscribe ibis-users >| >|or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. >| >|IBIS reflector archives exist under: >| >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 > > > > |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:23:37 -0800 From: "Mirmak, Michael" Subject: [IBIS-Users] Agenda, IBIS Open Forum Teleconference for March 12, 2004 IBIS Open Forum Meeting Agenda for March 12, 2004 Telephone Number Bridge Passcode 1-916-356-2663 1 837-4190 All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM US Pacific Time. When calling into the meeting, provide the bridge number and passcode at the automated prompts. If asked by an operator, please request to join the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Michael Mirmak. For international numbers, please contact Michael Mirmak. 8:00 Check-In, Intros, Announcements Mirmak - Intros of New IBIS Participants, Meeting Quorum Mirmak - Call for Patents (IBIS 4.0/4.1, ICM) Mirmak - Membership Update and Treasurer's Report Mirmak - Review of Previous Meeting's Minutes (and ARs) Mirmak February 20, 2004 Open Forum Minutes February 20, 2004 Summit Minutes - Miscellany/Announcements All - Press & Web Page Updates Huq, All - New Models Available, Library Update Leventhal - Opens for New Issues All 8:15 Administrative and Project Discussions Mailing List Administration Angulo/Ross International/External Progress - JEDEC Committee Report Green - FSA Modeling Committee Green - Other activities All Summit Planning - DATE 2004 Report Ross - DesignCon East 2004 All - Other Summits All IBIS Quality Committee Report Katz/Ross IBIS Model Review Committee Green S2IBIS3 Status Varma/Ross IBIS 4.1 Parser Status Mirmak/Ross ICM Specification and Parser Status Green/Mirmak Futures Subcommittee Summary All Cookbook Subcommittee Summary All New Administrative Issues All 8:45 Technical Discussion I-T Tables Discussion Huq/Camerlo BIRD88: Driver Schedule Initialization Ross/Muranyi IBISCHK4 BUG Status Mirmak/Angulo New Technical Issues All 9:50 Wrap Up and Next Meeting Plans Mirmak - April 2, 2004 IBIS Open Forum 9:55 Sign Off |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:40:43 -0500 From: "Todd Westerhoff" Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: [IBIS] IBIS Summit minutes (06/23/03) Hi everyone, Does anyone know what's happening to the EIA website at www.eigroup.org ? ... it seems to be in a state of disrepair. Furthermore, the IBIS 3.2 spec at http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/ver3.2 which is linked off www.eigroup.org/ibis/specs.htm ... is no longer available. Todd. Todd Westerhoff High Speed Design Specialist Cisco Systems 1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719 email:twesterh@cisco.com ph: 978-936-2149 ============================================ "You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains; You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas; I am strong, when I am on your shoulders; You raise me up ... to more than I can be" - - Josh Groban, "You Raise Me Up" |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:20:19 -0800 From: "Lynne Green" Subject: [IBIS-Users] SECOND CALL FOR PAPERS FOR IBIS SUMMIT AT DESIGNCON EAST - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- IBIS SUMMIT AT DESIGNCON EAST SECOND CALL FOR PARTICIPATION & PRESENTATIONS - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I B I S S U M M I T M E E T I N G Time/Date: Monday April 5, 2004 8:00 AM to 5 PM Location: Holiday Inn Boxborough 242 Adams Place Boxborough, Massachusetts Content: Presentations and Discussions Purpose: Solicit and Exchange IBIS Model Related Information and Ideas. Sponsors: DesignCon East If your company would be interested in sponsoring this event, please contact Lynne Green . Benefits to sponsors include formal recognition at the meeting and acknowledgement in the Calls for Papers and meeting minutes. Your financial support strengthens the organization by allowing IBIS to focus resources on industry activities rather than raising money, and you will receive generous thanks for your support. DesignCon East Conference April 5-7, 2004 Holiday Inn Boxborough 242 Adams Place Boxborough, Massachusetts DesignCon East provides a venue for practicing engineers to interact with their peers to find the solutions to their most challenging design problems. The combination of the technical sessions and exhibition presents the opportunity to discuss the latest solutions and then network with the innovative leaders who have these solutions on display. As an Associate Sponsor of DesignCon East, IBIS is pleased to provide its IBIS Summit registrants with a complimentary registration to attend the DesignCon East conference program, April 5-7. Registration for the Summit will automatically register you to attend DesignCon East. For additional information about the show, visit . BACKGROUND DesignCon East is the premier annual event for electronic design engineers working at the chip, board, and system levels in the Eastern Region of the United States. Topics of current interest to the EIA IBIS Open Forum are addressed at DesignCon East. This meeting will be conducted as a formal IBIS Summit Meeting. Presentations are expected to be available and archived in an electronic format, and minutes of the meeting will be issued. Any pending formal decisions (votes) will be announced at least two weeks prior to the meeting. CALL FOR PARTICIPANTS People involved in IBIS Model development, EDA tool development, and digital circuit design are invited to participate in the Summit meeting. If you plan to participate, please register with the information below: Name: E-mail address: Company: Telephone: Send to: Terry Roulic Please note that the IBIS attendees will attend the DesignCon East Monday Keynote luncheon. You must pre-register with DesignCon East by March 29 to attend the lunch. CALL FOR PRESENTATIONS We are seeking presentations from individuals who have experiences of interest to the IBIS modeling community. In the past, these have included demonstrations of modeling techniques, explanations of behavioral algorithms and descriptions of difficulties encountered in specific applications. Of particular interest are topics related to model correlation, modeling building experiences and comparisons to other modeling methods. Presentations may be addressed to any and all levels of IBIS experience, from beginning to advanced. Format of Presentation: LCD Projection with Windows laptop. Time: 15-30 Minutes Electronic Archival: We request electronic versions so that the presentations can be archived and also made available to non-attendees. Formats used in the past have been text, Power Point, Word, Postscript, and Acrobat. Electronic presentations should be made available by March 29, 2004 for uploading and copying to the presentation laptop. If you plan a presentation, please supply Title: Presenter: E-mail address: Company: Telephone: Estimated Time: Send this to: Lynne Green AGENDA The agenda includes presentations, discussions, breaks, and a luncheon. This will be developed as presentation proposals are received. The IBIS attendees will attend the DesignCon East Monday Keynote luncheon. You must pre-register with DesignCon East by March 29 to attend the lunch. DesignCon East registration is free to attendees of the IBIS Summit. For additional information, see the DesignCon East information at the top of this page, or visit . LIST OF NEARBY HOTELS For travel directions, hotels and other information, see http://www.iec.org/events/2004/designcon_east/conference/hotel_8_travel.html - ----------------------------------------------------------------- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 18:28:34 -0800 From: Bob Ross Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] RE: [IBIS] IBIS Summit minutes (06/23/03) Todd and All: Eda.org was taken down Friday afternoon for system upgrades. It has had some intermittant problems over the last few months. Many documents from the eia.org site are linked to eda.org. Eda.org now appears to be back up again. Bob Todd Westerhoff wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Does anyone know what's happening to the EIA website at > > www.eigroup.org ? > > ... it seems to be in a state of disrepair. Furthermore, the IBIS 3.2 spec > at > > http://www.vhdl.org/pub/ibis/ver3.2 > > which is linked off www.eigroup.org/ibis/specs.htm > > ... is no longer available. > > Todd. > > Todd Westerhoff > High Speed Design Specialist > Cisco Systems > 1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719 > email:twesterh@cisco.com > ph: 978-936-2149 - -- Bob Ross Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 2926 SE Yamhill St. Device Modeling Division Portland, OR 97214 13610 SW Harness Lane 503-239-5536 Beaverton, OR 97008 http://www.teraspeed.com 503-430-1065 bob@teraspeed.com 503-246-8048 Direct |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 08:15:37 -0800 From: "Mirmak, Michael" Subject: [IBIS-Users] BIRD88 - Driver Schedule Initialization This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C405F1.C2095B21 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The enclosed BIRD is posted on behalf of Bob Ross of Teraspeed Consulting Group. It will be discussed at the March 12 IBIS Open Forum teleconference. - - Michael Mirmak Intel Corp. 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KioqKioqKioq - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C405F1.C2095B21-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 20:06:48 +0200 From: "Hazem Mahmoud Hegazy" Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users]Difference in rise-fall waveform due to c_comp!! Hi, I want to clarify something in general about IBIS modeling; As a behavioral model, it has certain domain which will work in a proper way inside it. Far a way from this domain we should not expect much. But, in fact a lot of model work very good even far from this domain. What is this domain anyway, It is around the load resistance in the v-t data which represent the characteristic impedance of the lines. Also, I want to clarify other thing which I did it long time ago: If you put the same resistive load you used in the V-T data then you should have the same waveforms regardless of the C-comp value. The reason for that is the C_comp value along with V-T data are used to calculate the current multipliers of both pullup and pulldown curves. If you put the same resistive load you simply make the inverse operation and you should get the same wave forms again. You seem to have either model problem or your buffer has different C-comp for the pullup and pulldown cases which is something I?ve experienced before. Let me now comment on your observation: 1- I think you have the correct pullup C_comp 2- In this case it seems that the pulldown capacitance is much different from the C_comp you have. 3 & 4- You are off the operating domain but this should not be the only reason. I have modeled hundreds of buffer without having this problem while validating them in high reflection environment much harder than just the capacitance. I hope that helps. Hazem Hegazy On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 14:13:54 +0530 Alok Rungta wrote: > >Arpad, >I am not sure if I understood things correctly .. First I >would further clarify the experiment I did. I simulated a >simple circuit with a buffer(ibis model) and a load. I >tried two loads one resistive and other only cap. For >each load condition I did 2 simulations with different >ibis model files wherein in the 2nd simulation I just >changed the c_comp(made it 10x the actual) value to see >the effect of this parameter on the simulation. What I >observe is: > >For Resistive load:(which is same as the load I used for >generating the V-t curve in IBIS model): >1>When there is a transition from low to high the >waveform in both the cases(with actual ibis model of the >buffer and with the one which has c_comp modified to 10x) >is exactly same. >2>But when there is a fall transition at output the >waveforms are different for two cases. > >For Cap load: >3> Waveform is different for the rise case in both the >cases. >4> Waveform is different for the fall cases in both the >cases. > > From what I understand observation 2 can be explained >because of >current flowing in the buffer(outside in) and thus c-comp >coming in picture.observation 1 => no role of c_comp in >low to high transition because its inside out. >Observation 4 can also be attributed to an outside in >effect where c_comp comes into effect. But observation 3 >is what I am not very clear about .. One thing I deduce >is that probably the v-t curves in the ibis model are >generated for resistive loads so when it comes to >resistive loads the simulator just uses IV curve and V-t >curves in the model for interpolation and generates the >curve(accuracy depending on difference between the loads >you simuated for and load being used in the simuation). >When using the cap. load it cannot possibly use this V-t >curve in the same way because the load is of entirely >different nature. So it has to look at the c-comp. How is >it using the IV information in this case is not very >clear to me ? >Can you please throw some more light on this ... > >Thanks in Anticipation >Alok Rungta > >Muranyi, Arpad wrote: > >>Alok, >> >>What you see is the correct behavior. >> >>The meaning of C_comp is die capacitance which includes >>everything that is on the die, pad, metal, transistors, >>etc... When you obtain waveforms (Vt curves), this >>capacitance is in place, so the waveform includes its >>effects. For this reason, IBIS simulators do not use >>this capacitance to load the waveform that is in the >>IBIS model, i.e. no matter what value you provide for >>C_comp, the simulation waveforms will remain the same >>(within reasonable limits) with the same resistive >>load on the output. On the other hand, any external >>capacitance connected to the output of the IBIS model >>will change its simulation waveforms, because that >>will act as a load to the buffer. >> >>On the other hand, the value of C_comp will have an >>effect >>the reflections which come to the buffer from the >>outside. >> >>In summary, C_comp is invisible from the inside out, but >>visible from the outside in. >> >>I hope this helps, >> >>Arpad Muranyi >>Intel Corporation >>========================================================= >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org >>[mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org]On >>Behalf Of Alok Rungta >>Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 8:57 AM >>To: ibis-users@eda.org >>Subject: [IBIS-Users]Difference in rise-fall waveform due >>to c_comp!! >> >> >>Hello IBIS users, >> >>I am trying to understand how the simulation tool is >>using the c_comp parameter in the ibis model. For the >>same ibis model i just change the c_comp parameter and >>resimulated to see if there are any differences in the >>observed output voltage waveform. When using a cap as a >>load I see differences in both the rise and the fall >>transition .. but when using a pure resistive load I find >>that both the models on simulation give the same rise >>waveform but different fall waveforms. Is this the >>expected behavior ?? Isnt c_comp supposed to be used >>only in case of reflection ?? >> >>Thanks in Anticipation >>Alok Rungta >> >> >>|------------------------------------------------------------------ >>|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email >>majordomo@eda.org >>|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the >>body: >>| >>| help >>| subscribe ibis >different> >>| subscribe ibis-users >different> >>| unsubscribe ibis >different> >>| unsubscribe ibis-users >different> >>| >>|or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. >>| >>|IBIS reflector archives exist under: >>| >>| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent >>| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent >>| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail >>since 1993 >>|------------------------------------------------------------------ >>|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email >>majordomo@eda.org >>|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the >>body: >>| >>| help >>| subscribe ibis >different> >>| subscribe ibis-users >different> >>| unsubscribe ibis >different> >>| unsubscribe ibis-users >different> >>| >>|or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. >>| >>|IBIS reflector archives exist under: >>| >>| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent >>| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent >>| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail >>since 1993 >> >> >> >> > > > > > > >|------------------------------------------------------------------ >|For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email >majordomo@eda.org >|with just the appropriate command message(s) in the >body: >| >| help >| subscribe ibis different> >| subscribe ibis-users different> >| unsubscribe ibis different> >| unsubscribe ibis-users different> >| >|or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. >| >|IBIS reflector archives exist under: >| >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent >| http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail >since 1993 Hazem Hegazy$IBIS modeling manager$Quality ___________________________________________________________________________ Your email is totally virus secure by MenaNet AntiVirus. Tired of spam? Get advanced, send spam emails to MenaNet.AntiSpam@menanet.net to be protected by MenaNet AntiSpam. http://www.menanet.net |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 17:26:41 -0800 From: "Eric Hsu" Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS model for SSN/SSO? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C40707.E841F5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi expert, Is anyone have experienced to run SSN/SSO simulation by IBIS model? I am = curious about how much difference by using IBIS model vs. SPICE model.=20 Best Regards, Eric Hsu Interface Technologies NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. 450 National Ave. Mountain View, CA 94043 650-961-6676 x198 This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential = information - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C40707.E841F5E0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IioBAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEgAEAGAAAAElCSVMgbW9kZWwgZm9yIFNT Ti9TU08/ADYHAQWAAwAOAAAA1AcDAAoAEQAaACkAAwA/AQEggAMADgAAANQHAwAKABEAGgApAAMA PwEBCYABACEAAAAyMkQxQjMyNjk4QzVGMjQzOEVBREQwMUZDMTQzNDcyMQAUBwEDkAYA9AYAADAA AAALAAIAAQAAAAMAJgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkA4PVB6AcHxAEeAD0AAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAAgFH AAEAAAAtAAAAYz11czthPSA7cD1ubG1zO2w9T1JJT04zLTA0MDMxMTAxMjY0MVotMjA4MjAAAAAA HgBwAAEAAAAYAAAASUJJUyBtb2RlbCBmb3IgU1NOL1NTTz8AAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAcQHB+hfcIl+ mjtmRD2Qbzq/uEb8jwAAHgAaDAEAAAAJAAAARXJpYyBIc3UAAAAAHgAdDgEAAAAYAAAASUJJUyBt b2RlbCBmb3IgU1NOL1NTTz8AAgEJEAEAAADJAQAAxQEAAGMCAABMWkZ1quL7TgMACgByY3BnMTI1 FjIA+Atgbg4QMDMzTwH3AqQD4wIAY2gKwHPwZXQwIAcTAoMAUARVrxDJCFUHsgKAfQqBdgiQpHdr C4BkNAxgYwBQAwsDC7UgSGkgZXhycASQdCwKogqECoBJSwQgAHB5AiBlIBDwdicX8BZDCJBuYwmA IHQQbyBydQOgU1NOki8ZkE8gAJBtdQtgBHRpAiAgYnkgScxCSQXwBGJsPxrgF5B4bSBjCHEIYBeB BuB1OQVAaG8H4BowEOAgZH0GkGYEkBjCGrIcUAuAZyEa6SB2cy4GAFBJfENFGzQfgBa4CzEW0kKj B5AFQFJlZwsRcxar6kUFEGMWAHMMcBckAjAtBJBmANAX8FQFkGhuPQjxZwiQELAWwwfAdEybJQEj QE0N4ANgc3khoFxlbSIwGuAY0C4WtDT6NRFQThpjB0ARYBgwJ1XOTQhgAjALcSBWFHEnAABDQSA5 NDA0MwUWtDYn0C05NjEtADY2NzYgeDE5bjgWtQBAJIBoBAAWMC3/AMADEQWgKWMHoiXfJuYTQbhu ZmkBAAIwBzEgC4D9AhByAMAaciwWAUAgjhQhAgAzIAAAAB4ANRABAAAAQgAAADxFQkI0RTE2MjEx NEI2MjREOUU0MzY1M0M5NTAyRDI4RDFDRUJFNEBvcmlvbjMubmV0bG9naWNtaWNyby5jb20+AAAA AwCAEP////8fAPMQAQAAADwAAABJAEIASQBTACAAbQBvAGQAZQBsACAAZgBvAHIAIABTAFMATgD/ +FMAUwBPACUAMwBGAC4ARQBNAEwAAAALAPYQAAAAAEAABzCIkz/oBwfEAUAACDDoHEnoBwfEAQMA 3j+vbwAAAwDxPwkEAAAeAPg/AQAAAAkAAABFcmljIEhzdQAAAAACAfk/AQAAAFgAAAAAAAAA3KdA yMBCEBq0uQgAKy/hggEAAAAAAAAAL089TkxNUy9PVT1GSVJTVCBBRE1JTklTVFJBVElWRSBHUk9V UC9DTj1SRUNJUElFTlRTL0NOPUVIU1UAHgD6PwEAAAAVAAAAU3lzdGVtIEFkbWluaXN0cmF0b3IA AAAAAgH7PwEAAAAeAAAAAAAAANynQMjAQhAatLkIACsv4YIBAAAAAAAAAC4AAAADABlAAAAAAAMA GkAAAAAAHgAwQAEAAAAFAAAARUhTVQAAAAAeADFAAQAAAAUAAABFSFNVAAAAAB4AOEABAAAABQAA AEVIU1UAAAAAHgA5QAEAAAACAAAALgAAAAMACVkDAAAAAwABbiAAAAALAGaBCCAGAAAAAADAAAAA AAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMAfoEIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFKFAABzeQEAHgB/gQggBgAA AAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAVIUAAAEAAAAEAAAAOS4wAAMAwoEIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAGF AAAAAAAACwDHgQggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAA4UAAAAAAAADAMyBCCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAA RgAAAAARhQAAAAAAAAMA0YEIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwDYgQggBgAAAAAA wAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAGIUAAAAAAAALAA2CCCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAGhQAAAAAAAAsAKQAA AAAACwAjAAAAAAADAAYQssf4sgMABxAxAQAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAEhJ RVhQRVJULElTQU5ZT05FSEFWRUVYUEVSSUVOQ0VEVE9SVU5TU04vU1NPU0lNVUxBVElPTkJZSUJJ U01PREVMP0lBTUNVUklPVVNBQk9VVEhPV01VQ0hESUZGRVJFTkNFQlkAAAAAAgF/AAEAAABCAAAA PEVCQjRFMTYyMTE0QjYyNEQ5RTQzNjUzQzk1MDJEMjhEMUNFQkU0QG9yaW9uMy5uZXRsb2dpY21p Y3JvLmNvbT4AAADdbA== - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C40707.E841F5E0-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:09:04 -0800 From: "Frank Dunlap" Subject: [IBIS-Users] Question regarding .pkg versus simple RLC This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C4070D.D3FAF938 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Presumably, a .pkg file provides "more" information than the simple RLC in the [Pin] section of an IBIS model. Assuming that's the case, do simulators actually take advantage of this additional information? Are there cases where a .pkg file is preferred? Are there cases when it's not preferred, such as where its added complexity may cause problems? Furthermore, is there a straightforward relationship between RLC values that would appear under the [Pin] section in an IBIS model, and corresponding values that would appear in a .pkg file? Here's an example from the [Pin] section of an IBIS model: [Pin] signal_name model_name R_pin L_pin C_pin AE6 HINT# V33OP 2.170 8.506nH 6.636pF AE5 HRW# V33OP 2.165 8.475nH 5.865pF C16 S_A00 V33OP 1.332 3.287nH 3.472pF Here's an example from a .pkg file: [Resistance Matrix] Banded_matrix [Bandwidth] 0 [Row] 2255 1.74791e+000 [Row] 2253 1.74386e+000 ... [Inductance Matrix] Sparse_matrix [Row] 2255 2255 1.21125e-008 2253 1.70009e-010 B19 1.73505e-010 [Row] 2253 2253 1.25283e-008 J21 1.22831e-010 F20 1.89512e-010 K21 4.09167e-010 ... [Capacitance Matrix] Sparse_matrix [Row] 2255 2255 4.40327e-012 2253 -2.82931e-015 B19 -1.47570e-015 [Row] 2253 2253 4.33757e-012 J21 -1.04449e-014 F20 -2.65107e-015 K21 -8.93602e-015 The .pkg and [Pin] information are from two different data sets. I'm sorry, but I don't have both .pkg and [Pin] information from a common data set. 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|or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:26:15 -0800 From: "Eric Hsu" Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: [SI-LIST] IBIS model for SSN/SSO? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C40710.3AB12470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michael, Thanks for your information. By checking IBIS model spec., I doubt = whether it can perform some information as spice netlist have, especial = like short circuit current from power to ground when buffer switching. = That's why I have the concern for SSN by IBIS model. Please correct me = if I am wrong for this point.=20 Best Regards, Eric Hsu Interface Technologies NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. 450 National Ave. Mountain View, CA 94043 650-961-6676 x198 This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential = information - -----Original Message----- From: Mirmak, Michael [mailto:michael.mirmak@intel.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 6:02 PM To: Eric Hsu; Si-List (E-mail) Cc: Frank Dunlap Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] IBIS model for SSN/SSO? Eric, Thanks for your interest in IBIS. At the most recent US IBIS Summit (February 2, in Santa Clara), Raymond Chen of Sigrity presented on SSO issues, including the use of Cdie, and IBIS. =20 You can find all of the summit presentations at the following URL: http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/summits/feb04a/ - - Michael Mirmak Intel Corp. Chair, EIA/IBIS Open Forum - -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Eric Hsu Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 5:27 PM To: Si-List (E-mail); Ibis-Users (E-mail) Cc: Frank Dunlap Subject: [SI-LIST] IBIS model for SSN/SSO? Hi expert, Is anyone have experienced to run SSN/SSO simulation by IBIS model? I am =3D curious about how much difference by using IBIS model vs. SPICE model.=3D20 Best Regards, Eric Hsu Interface Technologies NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. 450 National Ave. Mountain View, CA 94043 650-961-6676 x198 This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential =3D information - ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: =20 http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu =20 - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C40710.3AB12470 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhACAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEgAEAJgAAAFJFOiBbU0ktTElTVF0gSUJJ 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------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:55:40 -0500 From: "Lance Wang" Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: Question regarding .pkg versus simple RLC This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C40778.EBAFF3D5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Frank, I can only speak for Cadence SQ tool since you mentioned how simulator does for this. There are three sections in IBIS can give Pin Parasitic information: [Package] [Pin] [Package Model] In Cadence SQ tools, the usage priority setting from high to low is [Package Model] to [Pin] to [Package] by following IBIS Guideline. Another words, if [Package Model] is present, it overrides all others. So, to answer your question, yes, Cadence SQ tools do take the advantage of [Package Model] information. And I believe the most of other EDA tools do the same way too. Someone from other vendors can confirm it. If you want to ask the questions specifically about Cadence tools, please send me an email offline.=20 Hope this helps, Best regards, Liqun Wang (Lance)=20 Cadence Design Systems, Inc.=20 978-262-6685=20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Frank Dunlap Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:09 PM To: Ibis-Users (E-mail) Subject: Question regarding .pkg versus simple RLC Presumably, a .pkg file provides "more" information than the simple RLC in the [Pin] section of an IBIS model. Assuming that's the case, do simulators actually take advantage of this additional information? Are there cases where a .pkg file is preferred? Are there cases when it's not preferred, such as where its added complexity may cause problems? Furthermore, is there a straightforward relationship between RLC values that would appear under the [Pin] section in an IBIS model, and corresponding values that would appear in a .pkg file? Here's an example from the [Pin] section of an IBIS model: [Pin] signal_name model_name R_pin L_pin C_pin AE6 HINT# V33OP 2.170 8.506nH 6.636pF AE5 HRW# V33OP 2.165 8.475nH 5.865pF C16 S_A00 V33OP 1.332 3.287nH 3.472pF Here's an example from a .pkg file: [Resistance Matrix] Banded_matrix [Bandwidth] 0 [Row] 2255 1.74791e+000 [Row] 2253 1.74386e+000 ... [Inductance Matrix] Sparse_matrix [Row] 2255 2255 1.21125e-008 2253 1.70009e-010 B19 1.73505e-010 [Row] 2253 2253 1.25283e-008 J21 1.22831e-010 F20 1.89512e-010 K21 4.09167e-010 ... [Capacitance Matrix] Sparse_matrix [Row] 2255 2255 4.40327e-012 2253 -2.82931e-015 B19 -1.47570e-015 [Row] 2253 2253 4.33757e-012 J21 -1.04449e-014 F20 -2.65107e-015 K21 -8.93602e-015 The .pkg and [Pin] information are from two different data sets. I'm sorry, but I don't have both .pkg and [Pin] information from a common data set. Thanks in advance for any guidance, Frank - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C40778.EBAFF3D5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Question regarding .pkg versus simple RLC

Frank,

I can only speak for Cadence SQ tool since you mentioned how simulator does for = this.

There are three sections in IBIS can give Pin Parasitic information:

[Package]

[Pin]

[Package Model]

In Cadence SQ tools, the usage priority setting from high to low is [Package = Model] to [Pin] = to [Package] by following IBIS Guideline. Another words, if [Package Model] is present, it overrides all others. So, to = answer your question, yes, Cadence = SQ tools do take the = advantage of = [Package Model] information. And I believe the most of other EDA = tools = do the same way = too. Someone from = other vendors can confirm it.

If you want to ask the questions specifically about Cadence tools, please send me an email offline.

Hope this helps,

Best regards,

Liqun Wang (Lance)
Cadence = Design Systems, Inc.
978-262-6685

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C40778.EBAFF3D5-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:14:45 -0500 From: "Todd Westerhoff" Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: [SI-LIST] IBIS model for SSN/SSO? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C40751.AD2253F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric, An excellent question, with a long history of discussion. This was one of the origins of the quote "Kumar was right" that I've been known to use at IBIS meetings. As I understand it, an IBIS simulator doesn't really have enough information to completely model the crowbar current (between power and ground) inside the buffer during an output transition. The IBIS model tells us the voltage and current at the output terminal, but we don't really know what crowbar current is flowing inside the device. As Kumar put it (as far as I remember) - there are a number of different solutions for internal current that provide the same answer from the output perspective - and therefore, the simulator is forced to pick one. That was the basis for Kumar's contention that the V-T tables for I/O behavior should actually be V-I-T tables - allowing the the simulator could accurately model crowbar current, and by extension, SSO/SSN effects. So ... as far as I understand the issue, you can't really count on an IBIS model to accurately predict SSO/SSN, because part of the information it needs is missing. If the assumption about internal currents the simulator makes is correct, then yes, the answers may correlate well ... but there are no guarantees. If memory serves, others have presented studies on switching currents for IBIS vs. SPICE models and reported good correlation. In any given instance, I'd still recommend comparing the IBIS vs. SPICE results before undertaking a lot of analysis work. In the case where the comparisons are favorable, the advantage of doing the analysis with IBIS is obvious - speed and ease of use. Hope that helps, Todd. Todd Westerhoff High Speed Design Specialist Cisco Systems 1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719 email:twesterh@cisco.com ph: 978-936-2149 ============================================ "You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains; You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas; I am strong, when I am on your shoulders; You raise me up ... to more than I can be" - - Josh Groban, "You Raise Me Up" - -----Original Message----- From: Eric Hsu [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org]On Behalf Of Eric Hsu Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:26 PM To: Mirmak, Michael; Ibis-Users (E-mail); Si-List (E-mail) Cc: Frank Dunlap Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] IBIS model for SSN/SSO? Hi Michael, Thanks for your information. By checking IBIS model spec., I doubt whether it can perform some information as spice netlist have, especial like short circuit current from power to ground when buffer switching. That's why I have the concern for SSN by IBIS model. Please correct me if I am wrong for this point. Best Regards, Eric Hsu Interface Technologies NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. 450 National Ave. Mountain View, CA 94043 650-961-6676 x198 This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information - -----Original Message----- From: Mirmak, Michael [mailto:michael.mirmak@intel.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 6:02 PM To: Eric Hsu; Si-List (E-mail) Cc: Frank Dunlap Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] IBIS model for SSN/SSO? Eric, Thanks for your interest in IBIS. At the most recent US IBIS Summit (February 2, in Santa Clara), Raymond Chen of Sigrity presented on SSO issues, including the use of Cdie, and IBIS. You can find all of the summit presentations at the following URL: http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/summits/feb04a/ - - Michael Mirmak Intel Corp. Chair, EIA/IBIS Open Forum - -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Eric Hsu Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 5:27 PM To: Si-List (E-mail); Ibis-Users (E-mail) Cc: Frank Dunlap Subject: [SI-LIST] IBIS model for SSN/SSO? Hi expert, Is anyone have experienced to run SSN/SSO simulation by IBIS model? I am = curious about how much difference by using IBIS model vs. SPICE model.=20 Best Regards, Eric Hsu Interface Technologies NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. 450 National Ave. Mountain View, CA 94043 650-961-6676 x198 This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential = information - ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C40751.AD2253F0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+Ii0PAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAANQHAwALAAoADgAAAAQABQEB A5AGADQEAAAgAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAA AAAAHgBwAAEAAAAiAAAAW1NJLUxJU1RdIElCSVMgbW9kZWwgZm9yIFNTTi9TU08/AAAAAgFxAAEA AAAlAAAAAcQHB+hfcIl+mjtmRD2Qbzq/uEb8jwABCHwgAABtBWAAGuPjsAAAAAIBHQwBAAAAGAAA AFNNVFA6VFdFU1RFUkhAQ0lTQ08uQ09NAAsAAQ4AAAAAQAAGDgBsDHt7B8QBAgEKDgEAAAAYAAAA AAAAANfsU2kioN1Nrd/Xqlg4PfDCgAAAHgBCEAEAAABCAAAAPEVCQjRFMTYyMTE0QjYyNEQ5RTQz NjUzQzk1MDJEMjhEMUNFQkU2QG9yaW9uMy5uZXRsb2dpY21pY3JvLmNvbT4AAAALAAGACCAGAAAA AADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAADhQAAAAAAAAMAA4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwAH gAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAACdqAQAeAAmACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABUhQAA AQAAAAQAAAA5LjAAHgAKgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAANoUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AC4AI IAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADeFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAAyACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAA AAA4hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAACwANgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAgoUAAAEAAAALADqACCAG AAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMAPIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABGFAAAAAAAA AwA9gAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAGIUAAAAAAAALAFKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAG hQAAAAAAAAMAU4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAGFAAAAAAAAAgH4DwEAAAAQAAAA1+xTaSKg 3U2t39eqWDg98AIB+g8BAAAAEAAAANfsU2kioN1Nrd/Xqlg4PfACAfsPAQAAAJoAAAAAAAAAOKG7 EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAAUFNUUFJYLkRMTAAAAAAAAAAATklUQfm/uAEAqgA32W4AAABEOlxEb2N1 bWVudHMgYW5kIFNldHRpbmdzXHR3ZXN0ZXJoXExvY2FsIFNldHRpbmdzXEFwcGxpY2F0aW9uIERh dGFcTWljcm9zb2Z0XE91dGxvb2tcb3V0bG9vay5wc3QAAAADAP4PBQAAAAMADTT9NwAAAgF/AAEA AAAyAAAAPE5ORU5LTk5QQUFFR0FMRkJCUEZBRUVPQkVLQUEudHdlc3RlcmhAY2lzY28uY29tPgAA AJTB - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C40751.AD2253F0-- |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 11:19:08 -0800 From: Bob Ross Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] RE: [SI-LIST] IBIS model for SSN/SSO? Eric: I agree with Todd's response and add for reference that this issue was considered years ago in a BIRD42.3 proposal. http://eda.org/pub/ibis/birds/index.html The proposal documented additional I-T tables. However, there were concerns ranging from technical robustness to model provider and EDA vendor support. Bob Todd Westerhoff wrote: > Eric, > > An excellent question, with a long history of discussion. This was one of > the origins of the quote "Kumar was right" that I've been known to use at > IBIS meetings. > > As I understand it, an IBIS simulator doesn't really have enough information > to completely model the crowbar current (between power and ground) inside > the buffer during an output transition. The IBIS model tells us the voltage > and current at the output terminal, but we don't really know what crowbar > current is flowing inside the device. As Kumar put it (as far as I > remember) - there are a number of different solutions for internal current > that provide the same answer from the output perspective - and therefore, > the simulator is forced to pick one. > > That was the basis for Kumar's contention that the V-T tables for I/O > behavior should actually be V-I-T tables - allowing the the simulator could > accurately model crowbar current, and by extension, SSO/SSN effects. > > So ... as far as I understand the issue, you can't really count on an IBIS > model to accurately predict SSO/SSN, because part of the information it > needs is missing. If the assumption about internal currents the simulator > makes is correct, then yes, the answers may correlate well ... but there are > no guarantees. > > If memory serves, others have presented studies on switching currents for > IBIS vs. SPICE models and reported good correlation. In any given instance, > I'd still recommend comparing the IBIS vs. SPICE results before undertaking > a lot of analysis work. In the case where the comparisons are favorable, > the advantage of doing the analysis with IBIS is obvious - speed and ease of > use. > > Hope that helps, > > Todd. > > Todd Westerhoff > High Speed Design Specialist > Cisco Systems > 1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719 > email:twesterh@cisco.com > ph: 978-936-2149 > ============================================ > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Hsu [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org]On Behalf Of Eric Hsu > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:26 PM > To: Mirmak, Michael; Ibis-Users (E-mail); Si-List (E-mail) > Cc: Frank Dunlap > Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] IBIS model for SSN/SSO? > > > Hi Michael, > > Thanks for your information. By checking IBIS model spec., I doubt whether > it can perform some information as spice netlist have, especial like short > circuit current from power to ground when buffer switching. That's why I > have the concern for SSN by IBIS model. Please correct me if I am wrong for > this point. > > Best Regards, > > Eric Hsu > Interface Technologies > NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. > 450 National Ave. > Mountain View, CA 94043 > 650-961-6676 x198 > This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential information > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mirmak, Michael [mailto:michael.mirmak@intel.com] > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 6:02 PM > To: Eric Hsu; Si-List (E-mail) > Cc: Frank Dunlap > Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] IBIS model for SSN/SSO? > > > Eric, > > Thanks for your interest in IBIS. At the most recent US IBIS Summit > (February 2, in Santa Clara), Raymond Chen of Sigrity presented on SSO > issues, including the use of Cdie, and IBIS. > > You can find all of the summit presentations at the following URL: > > http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/summits/feb04a/ > > - Michael Mirmak > Intel Corp. > Chair, EIA/IBIS Open Forum > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] > On Behalf Of Eric Hsu > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 5:27 PM > To: Si-List (E-mail); Ibis-Users (E-mail) > Cc: Frank Dunlap > Subject: [SI-LIST] IBIS model for SSN/SSO? > > > Hi expert, > > Is anyone have experienced to run SSN/SSO simulation by IBIS model? I am > = > curious about how much difference by using IBIS model vs. SPICE > model.=20 > > Best Regards, > > Eric Hsu > Interface Technologies > NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. > 450 National Ave. > Mountain View, CA 94043 > 650-961-6676 x198 > This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential = > information > > > - -- Bob Ross Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 2926 SE Yamhill St. Device Modeling Division Portland, OR 97214 13610 SW Harness Lane 503-239-5536 Beaverton, OR 97008 http://www.teraspeed.com 503-430-1065 bob@teraspeed.com 503-246-8048 Direct |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:06:06 -0800 From: "Eric Hsu" Subject: [IBIS-Users] Which package model is more useful and practical? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C407C5.D0AA31A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Expert, Has anyone ever really used *.pkg with IBIS model to do some = simulation, such as SSN? If so, can anyone let me know what's benefit we = can get from it? Myself prefer choosing IBIS model with package data for = pin R/L/C from itself, to any other package model like *.pkg or = S-parameter. If go to IBIS open forum to search all the ibis model, so = far I did not find any of them really using .pkg model with their ibis = model. If the chip get low pin count, I think it is easy to handle *.pkg = model because it is possible to verify accuracy for all the parasitic = effect. But for big chip, I don't know is there any way can handle that? For most of the application, I guess, probably it is not necessary to = provide .pkg model with ibis, because it may only provide one or two = order accuracy than per-pin R/L/C format in ibis. Tool compatibility may = be another issue. Best Regards, Eric Hsu Interface Technologies Netlogic Microsystems, Inc. 450 National Ave. Mountain View, CA 94043 650-961-6676 x198 This e-mail contains Netlogic Microsystems, Inc. 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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C407D0.D6310728 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, Thanks for you feedback. Maybe IBIS open forum can invite someone to = make a presentation for correlation for IBIS and SPICE in terms of SSN = case. Best Regards, Eric Hsu Interface Technologies NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. 450 National Ave. Mountain View, CA 94043 650-961-6676 x198 This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential = information - -----Original Message----- From: Bob Ross [mailto:bob@teraspeed.com] Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 11:19 AM To: Ibis-Users (E-mail); Si-List (E-mail) Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] RE: [SI-LIST] IBIS model for SSN/SSO? Eric: I agree with Todd's response and add for reference that this issue was considered years ago in a BIRD42.3 proposal. http://eda.org/pub/ibis/birds/index.html The proposal documented additional I-T tables. However, there were concerns ranging from technical robustness to model provider and EDA vendor support. Bob Todd Westerhoff wrote: > Eric, >=20 > An excellent question, with a long history of discussion. This was = one of > the origins of the quote "Kumar was right" that I've been known to use = at > IBIS meetings. >=20 > As I understand it, an IBIS simulator doesn't really have enough = information > to completely model the crowbar current (between power and ground) = inside > the buffer during an output transition. The IBIS model tells us the = voltage > and current at the output terminal, but we don't really know what = crowbar > current is flowing inside the device. As Kumar put it (as far as I > remember) - there are a number of different solutions for internal = current > that provide the same answer from the output perspective - and = therefore, > the simulator is forced to pick one. >=20 > That was the basis for Kumar's contention that the V-T tables for I/O > behavior should actually be V-I-T tables - allowing the the simulator = could > accurately model crowbar current, and by extension, SSO/SSN effects. >=20 > So ... as far as I understand the issue, you can't really count on an = IBIS > model to accurately predict SSO/SSN, because part of the information = it > needs is missing. If the assumption about internal currents the = simulator > makes is correct, then yes, the answers may correlate well ... but = there are > no guarantees. >=20 > If memory serves, others have presented studies on switching currents = for > IBIS vs. SPICE models and reported good correlation. In any given = instance, > I'd still recommend comparing the IBIS vs. SPICE results before = undertaking > a lot of analysis work. In the case where the comparisons are = favorable, > the advantage of doing the analysis with IBIS is obvious - speed and = ease of > use. >=20 > Hope that helps, >=20 > Todd. >=20 > Todd Westerhoff > High Speed Design Specialist > Cisco Systems > 1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719 > email:twesterh@cisco.com > ph: 978-936-2149 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Hsu [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org]On Behalf Of Eric Hsu > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:26 PM > To: Mirmak, Michael; Ibis-Users (E-mail); Si-List (E-mail) > Cc: Frank Dunlap > Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] IBIS model for SSN/SSO? >=20 >=20 > Hi Michael, >=20 > Thanks for your information. By checking IBIS model spec., I doubt = whether > it can perform some information as spice netlist have, especial like = short > circuit current from power to ground when buffer switching. That's why = I > have the concern for SSN by IBIS model. Please correct me if I am = wrong for > this point.=20 >=20 > Best Regards, >=20 > Eric Hsu > Interface Technologies > NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. > 450 National Ave. > Mountain View, CA 94043 > 650-961-6676 x198 > This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential = information >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Mirmak, Michael [mailto:michael.mirmak@intel.com] > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 6:02 PM > To: Eric Hsu; Si-List (E-mail) > Cc: Frank Dunlap > Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] IBIS model for SSN/SSO? >=20 >=20 > Eric, >=20 > Thanks for your interest in IBIS. At the most recent US IBIS Summit > (February 2, in Santa Clara), Raymond Chen of Sigrity presented on SSO > issues, including the use of Cdie, and IBIS. =20 >=20 > You can find all of the summit presentations at the following URL: >=20 > http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/summits/feb04a/ >=20 > - Michael Mirmak > Intel Corp. > Chair, EIA/IBIS Open Forum >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org = [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] > On Behalf Of Eric Hsu > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 5:27 PM > To: Si-List (E-mail); Ibis-Users (E-mail) > Cc: Frank Dunlap > Subject: [SI-LIST] IBIS model for SSN/SSO? >=20 >=20 > Hi expert, >=20 > Is anyone have experienced to run SSN/SSO simulation by IBIS model? I = am > =3D > curious about how much difference by using IBIS model vs. SPICE > model.=3D20 >=20 > Best Regards, >=20 > Eric Hsu > Interface Technologies > NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. > 450 National Ave. > Mountain View, CA 94043 > 650-961-6676 x198 > This e-mail contains NetLogic Microsystems, Inc. Confidential =3D > information >=20 > >=20 - --=20 Bob Ross Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 2926 SE Yamhill St. Device Modeling Division Portland, OR 97214 13610 SW Harness Lane 503-239-5536 Beaverton, OR 97008 http://www.teraspeed.com 503-430-1065 bob@teraspeed.com 503-246-8048 Direct |------------------------------------------------------------------ |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, email majordomo@eda.org |with just the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or email a written request to ibis-request@eda.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C407D0.D6310728 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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