From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org (ibis-users) To: ibis-users-digest@eda.org Subject: ibis-users V1 #141 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ibis-users@eda.org Errors-To: owner-ibis-users@eda.org Precedence: bulk ibis-users Thursday, April 8 2010 Volume 01 : Number 141 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:10:59 -0700 From: "Muranyi, Arpad" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] [dV/dt_r] and [dV/dt_f] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01CACC78.D08B4EB8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nam, =20 Section 9 of the IBIS specification should answer your question... =20 Arpad =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ________________________________ From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Nguyen, Duynam Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 6:07 PM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users] [dV/dt_r] and [dV/dt_f] Hi, Table 3.1 of page 19 of IBIS cookbook for IBIS Version 4.0 recommends 4 V-T waveforms:=20 1R + 1F driving 50 Ohms to Vcc 1R + 1F driving 50 Ohms to GND Note that from this set of 4 waveforms, I can derive 2 dV/dt_r and 2 dV/dt_f How do I decide which ones would be going into IBIS keywords [dV/dt_r] and [dV/dt_f] ? =20 Thank you in advance, Nam=20 - --=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and=20 dangerous content by MailScanner , and is believed to be clean.=20 - --=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01CACC78.D08B4EB8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nam,
 
Section 9 of the IBIS specification=20 should
answer your question...
 
Arpad
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D

From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org=20 [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Nguyen,=20 Duynam
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 6:07 PM
To:=20 ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: [IBIS-Users] [dV/dt_r] and=20 [dV/dt_f]

Hi,<= /P>

Table 3.1 of page 19 of IBIS= =20 cookbook for IBIS Version 4.0 recommends 4 V-T waveforms:=20

1R + 1F driving 50 Ohms to=20 Vcc

1R + 1F driving 50 Ohms to=20 GND

Note that from this set of 4= =20 waveforms, I can derive 2 dV/dt_r and 2 dV/dt_f

How do I decide which ones wo= uld be=20 going into IBIS keywords [dV/dt_r] and [dV/dt_f] ?=

 

Thank you in=20 advance,

Nam= =20


--
This message has been scanned= for=20 viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
be= lieved=20 to be clean.
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This message has been scanned for viruses and
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believed to be clean. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01CACC78.D08B4EB8-- - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 20:23:03 +0000 From: scott@teraspeed.com Subject: [IBIS-Users] Re: [IBIS] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: CrowdsourceIBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? for many models users cannot legally share information such as ibischk scores. The owner of the website would be legally responsible for policing each and every usage agreement. This is why independent companies provide this service. We keep an updated ibis model links page on our website that bob Ross manages Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry - -----Original Message----- From: Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:04:54 To: ; ; Cc: ; ; Subject: [IBIS] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Hi Jon, Yes, IP and updates are an issue, so the plan is to let IC vendors build a directory of links and/or "how-to-get-the-model" instructions, not the models themselves. Users will add reviews and ratings and IBISCHK scores. - -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Marketing Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA blog http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com - -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Powell, Jon N Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:48 AM To: steve weir; si-list@freelists.org Cc: bob@teraspeed.com; ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Isn't there also a legal issue here? Who owns the IP or the copyright and who is going to be responsible for violation of said when a copy is kept in a database? Jon Powell EPSD Product SI 將 - -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 6:58 PM To: si-list@freelists.org Cc: bob@teraspeed.com; ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Colin, Hosting is so cheap as to be a non-issue. Setting up the database mechanics is not particularly difficult either. The real cost is in the administration. In my opinion this needs people willing to serve as librarians who will act as the gate keepers so that the site is not overrun with junk. Best Regards, Steve. colin_warwick@agilent.com wrote: > Hi, > > Thanks to everyone for the feedback and encouragement :-) > > There are several options each with pros and cons > * Web page with an appointed honorary librarian > * Wikis e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.wikimatrix.org/ > * Discussion forums (bulletin boards) e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.forummatrix.org/ > * Email reflectors like the si-list http://freelists.org > * Shared document/table like a Google Docs spreadsheet. http://docs.google.com/ > * Hybrids of the above like Google Wave http://wave.google.com which they say is a "next generation" email/collaboration/documentation tool > > Here are some issues with each: > * Ease-of-use versus functionality: email is easy to use, but email reflectors and forums have limited searchablity and it's hard to aggregate threads of (possibility duplicative) conversations. > * WYSIWYG versus markup languages: some wikis and forums require you learn a mark up language. > * "One truth" (conclusion) versus "Let a hundred flowers blossom" (conversation) (yes, I do understand the irony of Mao Zedong's imperative): > ** Wikis attempt to arrive at some sort of consensus between the editors on the readers' behalf (although there's usually a discussion page for editors behind the "real" page for readers) > whereas > ** Discussion Forums let everyone voice their own opinion and each reader has to plow through the threads to draw their own conclusion from the (possibly heated) conversation. > * Reputation: How do you hold a contributor accountable for their contribution? How exclude spam in? > * Privacy: How much info to do I have to submit to sign up? As a reader? As a writer? How to prevent harvesting of personal info by nefarious agents? > * History/reversion: How do we track and undo "bad" edits? How to delete "bad" postings? > * Who pays? There are plenty of "free" hosting sites, usually ad-funded. Do we want an ad free site by paying to self-hosting fee? If so, how do we split the check? > * Structured versus unstructured: Do you want a rigorous database schema (specific column headings/fields for each row/record in (possibly interlinked) tables)? Or more free form? If structured, how to come to a consensus schema? > * Who runs the thing? What are the costs and benefits for the admin? > > I added a second straw poll to the bottom of: > > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-directory/ > > ...so you can vote for your favorite... > > Best regards, > > -- Colin Warwick > Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA > > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Howard Johnson > Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:00 AM > To: si-list@freelists.org > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? > > Hey Colin, > > I think you are on to a good idea. Individual users spend way too much time > farting around trying to put together good IBIS models. Much of that effort > seems wasted. > > I'd like to see the list include some sort of "user voting" feature so the > readers of the list could see if other people found the model "useful". > Some "wiki" type tools allow that kind of feedback and I believe it would be > crucial, because I believe you will never get an official committee to vet > the models -- it has to be done through independent user evaluations. > > Good luck, and keep plugging on this idea, it's a good one. > > Yes, I went to your link and voted. > > Best regards, > Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc., > tel +1 509-997-0505, howie03@sigcon.com > www.sigcon.com -- High-Speed Digital Design seminars, publications and films > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On > Behalf Of steve weir > Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 6:09 PM > To: colin_warwick@agilent.com > Cc: si-list@freelists.org > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS > model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? > > My view on the usefulness of such a directory all depends on how well the > directory would be maintained / policed and whether the directory would > include information that would indicate the model's likely usefulness. > There are a lot of IBIS ( HSPICE models as well for that matter ), that > aren't particularly useful. Many have not been verified in any way. Some > of them do not even parse. > > Anyway, if this is going to be undertaken, I would really like to see > something similar to the way that the FPGA vendors list IP cores. > > Target Model Manufacturer > Target Model Part Number > Free or pay model > Model basis: Raw original model, SPICE derived model, Measurement based > model IBIS version Passed parser or not w/ parser version Model verified or > not Link to model, or model supplier > > Steve > > > > colin_warwick@agilent.com wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Bottom line on top: Any interest in using and/or contributing to an IBIS >> > model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Please vote in this > informal straw poll: > >> > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-director > y/ > >> ...and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this thread. >> >> Backstory: I posted the message below to the IBIS lists, but was >> disappointed that the response was fairly mute. So, I'm posting it >> here in the hope it will resonate with si-listers. (If you are also on >> the IBIS lists, this is a duplicate. Sorry!) >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> -- Colin Warwick >> Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: WARWICK,COLIN >> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:59 AM >> To: IBIS-Interconnect; 'ibis-macro@freelists.org' >> Subject: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model >> > directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? > >> Hi, >> >> I get several emails a month from customers asking "Is there an IBIS model >> > for XYZ part from ABC IC vendor". I usually point them at: > >> http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html >> http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm >> >> If the info is out-of-date (as is often the case), I ask them to do an >> advanced Google search like: >> http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c >> om >> >> (replace someicvendordomain.com with the IC vendor's domain, >> obviously) >> >> But I'm wondering if there's a better way than "spray and pray" Googling >> > or burdening a single librarian with hundreds of update requests. > >> Sooo...How about crowdsourcing? >> >> "Crowd-what-ing," you say? Here's a definition from wikipedia: >> >> 'Crowdsourcing is a neologistic compound of Crowd and Outsourcing for the >> > act of taking tasks traditionally performed by an employee or contractor, > and outsourcing them to a group of people or community, through an "open > call" to a large group of people (a crowd) asking for contributions.' > >> (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing ) >> >> Specifically, I'm wondering if we should create a table off of the main >> > IBIS page on wikipedia: > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica >> tion >> >> ...(or some other wiki) for IC vendors to update their info themselves. It >> > would look something like this prototype I cobbled together: > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information >> _Specification/Table_of_IBIS_models >> >> Thoughts? Please vote in this informal straw poll: >> >> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di >> rectory/ >> >> and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this thread. >> >> Best regards, >> >> -- Colin Warwick >> Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA >> > > > - -- Steve Weir IPBLOX, LLC 150 N. Center St. #211 Reno, NV 89501 www.ipblox.com (775) 299-4236 Business (866) 675-4630 Toll-free (707) 780-1951 Fax - ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu - ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:06:40 -0500 From: "Nguyen, Duynam" Subject: [IBIS-Users] [dV/dt_r] and [dV/dt_f] - --_000_106E3E6D95333444AD513B8F10A224D707C4CCA9sausexmbp02amdc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Table 3.1 of page 19 of IBIS cookbook for IBIS Version 4.0 recommends 4 V-T= waveforms: 1R + 1F driving 50 Ohms to Vcc 1R + 1F driving 50 Ohms to GND Note that from this set of 4 waveforms, I can derive 2 dV/dt_r and 2 dV/dt_f How do I decide which ones would be going into IBIS keywords [dV/dt_r] and = [dV/dt_f] ? Thank you in advance, Nam - --=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - --_000_106E3E6D95333444AD513B8F10A224D707C4CCA9sausexmbp02amdc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

Table 3.1 of page 19 of IBIS cookbook for IBIS Version 4= .0 recommends 4 V-T waveforms:

1R + 1F driving 50 Ohms to Vcc<= /p>

1R + 1F driving 50 Ohms to GND<= /p>

Note that from this set of 4 waveforms, I can derive 2 dV/dt_r and 2 dV/dt_f

How do I decide which ones would be going into IBIS keyw= ords [dV/dt_r] and [dV/dt_f] ?

 

Thank you in advance,

= Nam <= o:p>


--=20
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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believed to be clean. - --_000_106E3E6D95333444AD513B8F10A224D707C4CCA9sausexmbp02amdc_-- - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:33:08 -0500 From: "Mike LaBonte (milabont)" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? The IBIS Quality spec goes beyond IBISCHK. There was some discussion at one point about having the IBIS Models page somehow indicate IBIS Quality adoption, but no agreement on a fair way to do it resulted. I like the idea of spec-based IBIS models, even if they are incomplete templates. I find that parts made to JEDEC specs, for example, sometimes omit data like [Receiver Thresholds] from their IBIS files. Some data are absent even from the datasheets, as though a reference to the JEDEC spec should suffice. There is an interesting debate about the value of merely passing on JEDEC limits versus the actual performance range of a part population. And there may be no great way to produce generic waveforms for a spec-standard IBIS model. If something reasonable can be produced, Aubrey has an interesting point that such an IBIS model might be used to verify that a design should work with any spec-compliant part, without simulating the separate IBIS files from each vendor. In any event I think if organizations like JEDEC produced IBIS files for each spec they would be doing everyone a favor. Some elements could be lifted from them, and they could provide a reference for limit checking vendor-specific IBIS models. Maybe anyone could contribute these spec-standard models, but who would verify that they accurate reflect the specs? Mike - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Aubrey Sparkman Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 9:18 PM To: si-list@freelists.org; ibis-users@eda.org Cc: 'steve weir'; 'Lynne D. Green'; colin_warwick@agilent.com Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? I like the idea of crowdsource, but I DON'T agree that parser clean is sufficient. I've seen too many models that pass parser but have curves that are not realistic. While many of the IBIS models I've used in the past have been considered IP, there is a class of models that would be very valuable and not subject to IP. Back in the day, I made a model for a generic PCI-X buffer model that reflected the PCI-X buffer specification. Using that model was, in most cases, preferable to using supplier specific buffer models because it enabled me to claim that any suppliers' product that met the PCI-X specification would work in my system. Does anyone volunteer to create spec based models for the current interfaces such as PCIe-GenX, USB-x, SATA, SAS, etc? Aubrey Sparkman 512-461-6165 asparky@sparkright-solutions.com - -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 6:51 PM To: si-list@freelists.org Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? The IBIS organization is a natural place to maintain a catalog and records of any checks done by vendors: silicon and/or EDA. The market value to the EDA vendors would be the ability to state the breadth of models that their tools support which might have enough market value to justify the ongoing cost. I would expect that the effort to create automated or semiautomated checking for compatibility would be well within the capability of each EDA vendor and make the amortized cost quite low. I think for any scheme to stand a chance of market acceptance, it cannot impose any substantial additional cost in dollars and/or time on silicon vendors. Best Regards, Steve. Lynne D. Green wrote: > > Steve and Colin, > > The "neutral" third party could be the IBIS Model Review Committee > (who are representatives from EDA vendors). We could perhaps report > models that pass the parser with no errors and no warnings. Someone > could encourage vendors to post their parser output file, with > comments about why particular warnings/errors were accepted, but that would be the vendor's job. > > Nothing "bad" would be reported about a particular IBIS file. And > only reporting "parser clean" might help address Jon's (very true) > point about IP protection. (And more vendors might take advantage of > our "neutral" review service to get on this list.) > > Another useful thing on the "wiki" might be educational material: > articles and educational materials people contribute, links to IBIS > parser, specs, cookbook, etc. > > Cheers, > Lynne > > Lynne Green > Chair > IBIS Model Review Committee > > > steve weir wrote: Colin, I don't see an open community Wiki-like > structure ever getting vendor support. There is just too much exposure > to unchecked, and potentially unfounded or even malicious criticism. > We do not live in suchan egalitarian society that vendors locked in > tight competition might nottry and get an edge in new product adoption > by spreading FUD over their competitor's offerings. In a world where > NDA's are required just to obtain data sheets I find it nearly > impossible to believe vendors would expose themselves in such a public > and difficult to control way. I think that if anything is going to come of this it would have to be either of the form of: > a. Voluntary vendor disclosure of standards compliance or b. Vendor > participation in compliance testing by an accepted neutral third party > such as a standards committee (as neutral as those can be). Best > regards, Steve colin_warwick@agilent.com[1] wrote: Hi Jon, Yes, IP and > updates are an issue,so the plan is to let IC vendors build a > directory of links and/or "how-to-get-the-model" instructions, not the > models themselves. Users will add reviews and ratings and IBISCHK > scores. -- Colin Warwick Signal IntegrityProduct Marketing Manager, > Agilent EEsof EDA blog http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com[2] -----Original Message----- From: > si-list-bounce@freelists.org[3] > [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org[4]] On Behalf Of Powell, Jon N > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:48 AM To: steve weir; > si-list@freelists.org[5] Cc: bob@teraspeed.com[6]; ibis@eda.org[7]; > ibis-users@eda.org[8] Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for > comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as > wikipedia? Isn't there also a legal issue here? Who owns the IP or the > copyright and who is going to be responsible for violation of said > when a copy is kept in a database? Jon Powell EPSD Product SI 將 > -----OriginalMessage----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org[9] > [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org[10]] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: > Monday, April 05, 2010 6:58 PM To: si-list@freelists.org[11] Cc: > bob@teraspeed.com[12]; ibis@eda.org[13]; ibis-users@eda.org[14] Subject: > [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model > directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Colin, Hosting is so > cheap as to be a non-issue. Setting up the database mechanics is not > particularly difficult either. The real cost is in the administration. > In my opinion this needs people willing to serve as librarians who > will act as the gate keepers so that the site is not overrun with junk. Best Regards, Steve. > colin_warwick@agilent.com[15] wrote: Hi, Thanks to everyone for the > feedback and encouragement :-) There are several options each with > pros and cons * Webpage with an appointed honorary librarian * Wikis > e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.wikimatrix.org/[16] * > Discussion forums (bulletin > boards) e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.forummatrix.org/[17] * > Email reflectors like the si-list http://freelists.org[18] * Shared > document/table like a Google Docs spreadsheet. > http://docs.google.com/[19] * Hybrids of the above like Google Wave > http://wave.google.com[20] which they say is a "next generation" > email/collaboration/documentation tool Here are some issues with > each: * Ease-of-use versus functionality: email is easy to use, but > email reflectors and forums have limited searchablity and it's hard to > aggregate threads of (possibility duplicative) conversations. * > WYSIWYG versus markup > languages: some wikis and forums require you learn a mark up language. > * "Onetruth" (conclusion) versus "Let a hundred flowers blossom" > (conversation)(yes, I do understand the irony of Mao Zedong's imperative): > **Wikis attempt to arrive at some sort of consensus between the > editors on the readers' behalf (although there's usually a discussion > page for editors behind the "real" page for readers) whereas ** > Discussion Forums let everyonevoice their own opinion and each reader > has to plow through the threads to draw their own conclusion from the > (possibly heated) > conversation.* Reputation: How do you hold a contributor accountable > for their contribution? How exclude spam in? * Privacy: How much info > to do I have to submit to sign up? As a reader? As a writer? How to > prevent harvesting of personal info by nefarious agents? * > History/reversion: How do we track and undo "bad" edits? How to delete "bad" postings? * Who pays? > There are plenty of "free" hosting sites, usually ad-funded. Do we > want an adfree site by paying to self-hosting fee? If so, how do we split the check? > * Structured versus unstructured: Do you want a rigorous database > schema (specific column headings/fields for each row/record in > (possibly > interlinked) tables)? Or more free form? If structured, how to come to > a consensus schema? * Who runs the thing? What are the costs and > benefits for the admin? I added a second straw poll to the bottom of: > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models > -directory/[21] ...so you can vote for your favorite... Best regards, > -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA > -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org[22] > [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org[23]] On Behalf Of Howard Johnson Sent: > Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:00 AM To: si-list@freelists.org[24] Subject: > [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model > directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Hey Colin, I think you > are on to a good idea. Individual users spend way too much time > farting around trying to put together good IBIS models. Much of that effort seems wasted. > I'd like to see the list include some sort of "user voting" feature so > the readers of the list could see if other people found the model > "useful". Some "wiki" type tools allow that kind of feedback and I > believe it would be crucial, because I believe you will never get an > official committee to vet the models -- it has to be done through > independent user evaluations. Good luck, and keep plugging on this > idea, it's a good one. Yes, I went to your link and voted. Best > regards, Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc., > tel+1 509-997-0505, howie03@sigcon.com[25] www.sigcon.com[26] -- > tel+High-Speed > Digital Design seminars, publications and films -----Original > Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org[27] > [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org[28]] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: > Friday, April 02, 2010 6:09 PM To: colin_warwick@agilent.com[29] Cc: > si-list@freelists.org[30] Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call > for > comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as > wikipedia? My view on the usefulness of such a directory all depends > on how well the directory would be maintained / policed and whether > the directory would include information that would indicate the model's likely usefulness. > There are a lot of IBIS ( HSPICE models as well for that matter ), > that aren't particularly useful. Many have not been verified in any > way. Some of them do not even parse. Anyway, if this is going to be > undertaken, I would really like to see something similar to the way > that the FPGA vendors list IPcores. Target Model Manufacturer Target > Model Part Number Free or pay modelModel basis: Raw original model, > SPICE derived model, Measurement based model IBIS version Passed > parser or not w/ parser version Model verified or not Link to model, > or model supplier Steve colin_warwick@agilent.com[31] > wrote: Hi, Bottom line on top: Any interest in using and/or > contributing to an IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as > wikipedia? Please vote in this informal straw poll: > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models > -director[32y/ ...and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this > thread. Backstory: I posted the message below to the IBIS lists, but > was disappointed that the response was fairly mute. So, I'm posting it > here in the hope it will resonate with si-listers. (If you are also on > the IBIS lists, this is a duplicate. Sorry!) Best regards, -- Colin > Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA > -----Original Message----- From:WARWICK,COLIN Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:59 AM To: > IBIS-Interconnect; 'ibis-macro@freelists.org[33]' Subject: Straw poll > and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a > wiki such as wikipedia? Hi, I get several emails a month from > customers asking "Is there an IBIS model for XYZ part from ABC IC vendor". I usually point them at: > http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html[34] > http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm[35] If the info is > out-of-date (as is often the case), I ask them to do an advanced > Google search like: > http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c > [36] om(replace someicvendordomain.com with the IC vendor's domain, > obviously) ButI'm wondering if there's a better way than "spray and > pray" Googling or burdening a single librarian with hundreds of update > requests. Sooo...How about crowdsourcing? "Crowd-what-ing," you say? > Here's a definition from > wikipedia: 'Crowdsourcing is a neologistic compound of Crowd and > Outsourcing for the act of taking tasks traditionally performed by an > employee or contractor, and outsourcing them to a group of people or > community, through an "open call" to a large group of people (a crowd) > asking for contributions.' (from > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing[37] ) Specifically, I'm > wondering if we should create a table off of the main IBIS page on wikipedia: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica > [38] tion ...(or some other wiki) for IC vendors to update their info > themselves. > It would look something like this prototype I cobbled together: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information > [39] _Specification/Table_of_IBIS_models Thoughts? Please vote in this > informal straw poll: > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di > [40] rectory/ and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this > thread. Best regards, -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product > Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA > > > --- Links --- > 1 mailto:colin_warwick@agilent.com > 2 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com > 3 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 4 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 5 mailto:si-list@freelists.org > 6 mailto:bob@teraspeed.com > 7 mailto:ibis@eda.org > 8 mailto:ibis-users@eda.org > 9 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 10 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 11 mailto:si-list@freelists.org > 12 mailto:bob@teraspeed.com > 13 mailto:ibis@eda.org > 14 mailto:ibis-users@eda.org > 15 mailto:colin_warwick@agilent.com > 16 http://www.wikimatrix.org/ > 17 http://www.forummatrix.org/ > 18 http://freelists.org > 19 http://docs.google.com/ > 20 http://wave.google.com > 21 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-directory/ > 22 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 23 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 24 mailto:si-list@freelists.org > 25 mailto:howie03@sigcon.com > 26 http://www.sigcon.com > 27 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 28 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 29 mailto:colin_warwick@agilent.com > 30 mailto:si-list@freelists.org > 31 mailto:colin_warwick@agilent.com > 32 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-director > 33 mailto:ibis-macro@freelists.org > 34 http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html > 35 http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm > 36 http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c > 37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing > 38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica > 39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information > 40 > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@freelists.org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@freelists.org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > - -- Steve Weir IPBLOX, LLC 150 N. Center St. #211 Reno, NV 89501 www.ipblox.com (775) 299-4236 Business (866) 675-4630 Toll-free (707) 780-1951 Fax - ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 20:17:48 -0500 From: "Aubrey Sparkman" Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? I like the idea of crowdsource, but I DON'T agree that parser clean is sufficient. I've seen too many models that pass parser but have curves that are not realistic. While many of the IBIS models I've used in the past have been considered IP, there is a class of models that would be very valuable and not subject to IP. Back in the day, I made a model for a generic PCI-X buffer model that reflected the PCI-X buffer specification. Using that model was, in most cases, preferable to using supplier specific buffer models because it enabled me to claim that any suppliers' product that met the PCI-X specification would work in my system. Does anyone volunteer to create spec based models for the current interfaces such as PCIe-GenX, USB-x, SATA, SAS, etc? Aubrey Sparkman 512-461-6165 asparky@sparkright-solutions.com - -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 6:51 PM To: si-list@freelists.org Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? The IBIS organization is a natural place to maintain a catalog and records of any checks done by vendors: silicon and/or EDA. The market value to the EDA vendors would be the ability to state the breadth of models that their tools support which might have enough market value to justify the ongoing cost. I would expect that the effort to create automated or semiautomated checking for compatibility would be well within the capability of each EDA vendor and make the amortized cost quite low. I think for any scheme to stand a chance of market acceptance, it cannot impose any substantial additional cost in dollars and/or time on silicon vendors. Best Regards, Steve. Lynne D. Green wrote: > > Steve and Colin, > > The "neutral" third party could be the IBIS Model Review Committee > (who are representatives from EDA vendors). We could perhaps report > models that pass the parser with no errors and no warnings. Someone > could encourage vendors to post their parser output file, with > comments about why particular warnings/errors were accepted, but that would be the vendor's job. > > Nothing "bad" would be reported about a particular IBIS file. And > only reporting "parser clean" might help address Jon's (very true) > point about IP protection. (And more vendors might take advantage of > our "neutral" review service to get on this list.) > > Another useful thing on the "wiki" might be educational material: > articles and educational materials people contribute, links to IBIS > parser, specs, cookbook, etc. > > Cheers, > Lynne > > Lynne Green > Chair > IBIS Model Review Committee > > > steve weir wrote: Colin, I don't see an open community Wiki-like > structure ever getting vendor support. There is just too much exposure > to unchecked, and potentially unfounded or even malicious criticism. > We do not live in suchan egalitarian society that vendors locked in > tight competition might nottry and get an edge in new product adoption > by spreading FUD over their competitor's offerings. In a world where > NDA's are required just to obtain data sheets I find it nearly > impossible to believe vendors would expose themselves in such a public > and difficult to control way. I think that if anything is going to come of this it would have to be either of the form of: > a. Voluntary vendor disclosure of standards compliance or b. Vendor > participation in compliance testing by an accepted neutral third party > such as a standards committee (as neutral as those can be). Best > regards, Steve colin_warwick@agilent.com[1] wrote: Hi Jon, Yes, IP and > updates are an issue,so the plan is to let IC vendors build a > directory of links and/or "how-to-get-the-model" instructions, not the > models themselves. Users will add reviews and ratings and IBISCHK > scores. -- Colin Warwick Signal IntegrityProduct Marketing Manager, > Agilent EEsof EDA blog http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com[2] -----Original Message----- From: > si-list-bounce@freelists.org[3] > [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org[4]] On Behalf Of Powell, Jon N > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:48 AM To: steve weir; > si-list@freelists.org[5] Cc: bob@teraspeed.com[6]; ibis@eda.org[7]; > ibis-users@eda.org[8] Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for > comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as > wikipedia? Isn't there also a legal issue here? Who owns the IP or the > copyright and who is going to be responsible for violation of said > when a copy is kept in a database? Jon Powell EPSD Product SI 將 > -----OriginalMessage----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org[9] > [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org[10]] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: > Monday, April 05, 2010 6:58 PM To: si-list@freelists.org[11] Cc: > bob@teraspeed.com[12]; ibis@eda.org[13]; ibis-users@eda.org[14] Subject: > [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model > directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Colin, Hosting is so > cheap as to be a non-issue. Setting up the database mechanics is not > particularly difficult either. The real cost is in the administration. > In my opinion this needs people willing to serve as librarians who > will act as the gate keepers so that the site is not overrun with junk. Best Regards, Steve. > colin_warwick@agilent.com[15] wrote: Hi, Thanks to everyone for the > feedback and encouragement :-) There are several options each with > pros and cons * Webpage with an appointed honorary librarian * Wikis > e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.wikimatrix.org/[16] * > Discussion forums (bulletin > boards) e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.forummatrix.org/[17] * > Email reflectors like the si-list http://freelists.org[18] * Shared > document/table like a Google Docs spreadsheet. > http://docs.google.com/[19] * Hybrids of the above like Google Wave > http://wave.google.com[20] which they say is a "next generation" > email/collaboration/documentation tool Here are some issues with > each: * Ease-of-use versus functionality: email is easy to use, but > email reflectors and forums have limited searchablity and it's hard to > aggregate threads of (possibility duplicative) conversations. * > WYSIWYG versus markup > languages: some wikis and forums require you learn a mark up language. > * "Onetruth" (conclusion) versus "Let a hundred flowers blossom" > (conversation)(yes, I do understand the irony of Mao Zedong's imperative): > **Wikis attempt to arrive at some sort of consensus between the > editors on the readers' behalf (although there's usually a discussion > page for editors behind the "real" page for readers) whereas ** > Discussion Forums let everyonevoice their own opinion and each reader > has to plow through the threads to draw their own conclusion from the > (possibly heated) > conversation.* Reputation: How do you hold a contributor accountable > for their contribution? How exclude spam in? * Privacy: How much info > to do I have to submit to sign up? As a reader? As a writer? How to > prevent harvesting of personal info by nefarious agents? * > History/reversion: How do we track and undo "bad" edits? How to delete "bad" postings? * Who pays? > There are plenty of "free" hosting sites, usually ad-funded. Do we > want an adfree site by paying to self-hosting fee? If so, how do we split the check? > * Structured versus unstructured: Do you want a rigorous database > schema (specific column headings/fields for each row/record in > (possibly > interlinked) tables)? Or more free form? If structured, how to come to > a consensus schema? * Who runs the thing? What are the costs and > benefits for the admin? I added a second straw poll to the bottom of: > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models > -directory/[21] ...so you can vote for your favorite... Best regards, > -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA > -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org[22] > [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org[23]] On Behalf Of Howard Johnson Sent: > Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:00 AM To: si-list@freelists.org[24] Subject: > [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model > directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Hey Colin, I think you > are on to a good idea. Individual users spend way too much time > farting around trying to put together good IBIS models. Much of that effort seems wasted. > I'd like to see the list include some sort of "user voting" feature so > the readers of the list could see if other people found the model > "useful". Some "wiki" type tools allow that kind of feedback and I > believe it would be crucial, because I believe you will never get an > official committee to vet the models -- it has to be done through > independent user evaluations. Good luck, and keep plugging on this > idea, it's a good one. Yes, I went to your link and voted. Best > regards, Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc., > tel+1 509-997-0505, howie03@sigcon.com[25] www.sigcon.com[26] -- > tel+High-Speed > Digital Design seminars, publications and films -----Original > Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org[27] > [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org[28]] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: > Friday, April 02, 2010 6:09 PM To: colin_warwick@agilent.com[29] Cc: > si-list@freelists.org[30] Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call > for > comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as > wikipedia? My view on the usefulness of such a directory all depends > on how well the directory would be maintained / policed and whether > the directory would include information that would indicate the model's likely usefulness. > There are a lot of IBIS ( HSPICE models as well for that matter ), > that aren't particularly useful. Many have not been verified in any > way. Some of them do not even parse. Anyway, if this is going to be > undertaken, I would really like to see something similar to the way > that the FPGA vendors list IPcores. Target Model Manufacturer Target > Model Part Number Free or pay modelModel basis: Raw original model, > SPICE derived model, Measurement based model IBIS version Passed > parser or not w/ parser version Model verified or not Link to model, > or model supplier Steve colin_warwick@agilent.com[31] > wrote: Hi, Bottom line on top: Any interest in using and/or > contributing to an IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as > wikipedia? Please vote in this informal straw poll: > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models > -director[32y/ ...and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this > thread. Backstory: I posted the message below to the IBIS lists, but > was disappointed that the response was fairly mute. So, I'm posting it > here in the hope it will resonate with si-listers. (If you are also on > the IBIS lists, this is a duplicate. Sorry!) Best regards, -- Colin > Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA > -----Original Message----- From:WARWICK,COLIN Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:59 AM To: > IBIS-Interconnect; 'ibis-macro@freelists.org[33]' Subject: Straw poll > and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a > wiki such as wikipedia? Hi, I get several emails a month from > customers asking "Is there an IBIS model for XYZ part from ABC IC vendor". I usually point them at: > http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html[34] > http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm[35] If the info is > out-of-date (as is often the case), I ask them to do an advanced > Google search like: > http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c > [36] om(replace someicvendordomain.com with the IC vendor's domain, > obviously) ButI'm wondering if there's a better way than "spray and > pray" Googling or burdening a single librarian with hundreds of update > requests. Sooo...How about crowdsourcing? "Crowd-what-ing," you say? > Here's a definition from > wikipedia: 'Crowdsourcing is a neologistic compound of Crowd and > Outsourcing for the act of taking tasks traditionally performed by an > employee or contractor, and outsourcing them to a group of people or > community, through an "open call" to a large group of people (a crowd) > asking for contributions.' (from > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing[37] ) Specifically, I'm > wondering if we should create a table off of the main IBIS page on wikipedia: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica > [38] tion ...(or some other wiki) for IC vendors to update their info > themselves. > It would look something like this prototype I cobbled together: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information > [39] _Specification/Table_of_IBIS_models Thoughts? Please vote in this > informal straw poll: > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di > [40] rectory/ and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this > thread. Best regards, -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product > Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA > > > --- Links --- > 1 mailto:colin_warwick@agilent.com > 2 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com > 3 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 4 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 5 mailto:si-list@freelists.org > 6 mailto:bob@teraspeed.com > 7 mailto:ibis@eda.org > 8 mailto:ibis-users@eda.org > 9 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 10 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 11 mailto:si-list@freelists.org > 12 mailto:bob@teraspeed.com > 13 mailto:ibis@eda.org > 14 mailto:ibis-users@eda.org > 15 mailto:colin_warwick@agilent.com > 16 http://www.wikimatrix.org/ > 17 http://www.forummatrix.org/ > 18 http://freelists.org > 19 http://docs.google.com/ > 20 http://wave.google.com > 21 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-directory/ > 22 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 23 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 24 mailto:si-list@freelists.org > 25 mailto:howie03@sigcon.com > 26 http://www.sigcon.com > 27 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 28 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 29 mailto:colin_warwick@agilent.com > 30 mailto:si-list@freelists.org > 31 mailto:colin_warwick@agilent.com > 32 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-director > 33 mailto:ibis-macro@freelists.org > 34 http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html > 35 http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm > 36 http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c > 37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing > 38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica > 39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information > 40 > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@freelists.org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@freelists.org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > - -- Steve Weir IPBLOX, LLC 150 N. Center St. #211 Reno, NV 89501 www.ipblox.com (775) 299-4236 Business (866) 675-4630 Toll-free (707) 780-1951 Fax - ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 16:03:47 -0700 From: "Lynne D. Green" Subject: [IBIS-Users] Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Steve and Colin,

The "neutral" third party could be the IBIS Model Review Committee (who are representatives from EDA vendors).  We could perhaps report models that pass the parser with no errors and no warnings.  Someone could encourage vendors to post their parser output file, with comments about why particular warnings/errors were accepted, but that would be the vendor's job.

Nothing "bad" would be reported about a particular IBIS file.  And only reporting "parser clean" might help address Jon's (very true) point about IP protection.  (And more vendors might take advantage of our "neutral" review service to get on this list.)

Another useful thing on the "wiki" might be educational material: articles and educational materials people contribute, links to IBIS parser, specs, cookbook, etc.

Cheers,
Lynne

Lynne Green
Chair
IBIS Model Review Committee


steve weir wrote: 
Colin, I don't see an open community Wiki-like structure ever getting
vendor support. There is just too much exposure to unchecked, and
potentially unfounded or even malicious criticism. We do not live in
such an egalitarian society that vendors locked in tight competition
might not try and get an edge in new product adoption by spreading FUD
over their competitor's offerings. In a world where NDA's are required
just to obtain data sheets I find it nearly impossible to believe
vendors would expose themselves in such a public and difficult to
control way.

I think that if anything is going to come of this it would have to be
either of the form of: a. Voluntary vendor disclosure of standards
compliance or b. Vendor participation in compliance testing by an
accepted neutral third party such as a standards committee (as neutral
as those can be).

Best regards,

Steve

colin_warwick@agilent.com wrote:
  
Hi Jon,

Yes, IP and updates are an issue, so the plan is to let IC vendors build a directory of links and/or "how-to-get-the-model" instructions, not the models themselves. Users will add reviews and ratings and IBISCHK scores.

- -- Colin Warwick
Signal Integrity Product Marketing Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA
blog http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Powell, Jon N
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:48 AM
To: steve weir; si-list@freelists.org
Cc: bob@teraspeed.com; ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?

Isn't there also a legal issue here?
Who owns the IP or the copyright and who is going to be responsible for violation of said when a copy is kept in a database?



Jon Powell

EPSD Product SI

$BUr(B


- -----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of steve weir
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 6:58 PM
To: si-list@freelists.org
Cc: bob@teraspeed.com; ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?

Colin,

Hosting is so cheap as to be a non-issue.  Setting up the database 
mechanics is not particularly difficult either. 
The real cost is in the administration.  In my opinion this needs people 
willing to serve as librarians who will act as the gate keepers so that 
the site is not overrun with junk. 

Best Regards,


Steve.

colin_warwick@agilent.com wrote:
  
    
Hi,

Thanks to everyone for the feedback and encouragement :-) 

There are several options each with pros and cons
* Web page with an appointed honorary librarian
* Wikis e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.wikimatrix.org/  
* Discussion forums (bulletin boards) e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.forummatrix.org/ 
* Email reflectors like the si-list http://freelists.org  
* Shared document/table like a Google Docs spreadsheet. http://docs.google.com/ 
* Hybrids of the above like Google Wave http://wave.google.com which they say is a "next generation" email/collaboration/documentation tool

Here are some issues with each:
* Ease-of-use versus functionality: email is easy to use, but email reflectors and forums have limited searchablity and it's hard to aggregate threads of (possibility duplicative) conversations.
* WYSIWYG versus markup languages: some wikis and forums require you learn a mark up language.
* "One truth" (conclusion) versus "Let a hundred flowers blossom" (conversation) (yes, I do understand the irony of Mao Zedong's imperative):
   ** Wikis attempt to arrive at some sort of consensus between the editors on the readers' behalf (although there's usually a discussion page for editors behind the "real" page for readers) 
whereas
   ** Discussion Forums let everyone voice their own opinion and each reader has to plow through the threads to draw their own conclusion from the (possibly heated) conversation.
* Reputation: How do you hold a contributor accountable for their contribution? How exclude spam in?  
* Privacy: How much info to do I have to submit to sign up? As a reader? As a writer? How to prevent harvesting of personal info by nefarious agents?
* History/reversion: How do we track and undo "bad" edits? How to delete "bad" postings?
* Who pays? There are plenty of "free" hosting sites, usually ad-funded. Do we want an ad free site by paying to self-hosting fee? If so, how do we split the check?
* Structured versus unstructured: Do you want a rigorous database schema (specific column headings/fields for each row/record in (possibly interlinked) tables)? Or more free form? If structured, how to come to a consensus schema?
* Who runs the thing? What are the costs and benefits for the admin?

I added a second straw poll to the bottom of:

http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-directory/

...so you can vote for your favorite...

Best regards,

- -- Colin Warwick
Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA


- -----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Howard Johnson
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:00 AM
To: si-list@freelists.org
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?

Hey Colin,

I think you are on to a good idea. Individual users spend way too much time
farting around trying to put together good IBIS models. Much of that effort
seems wasted.  

I'd like to see the list include some sort of "user voting" feature so the
readers of the list could see if other people found the model "useful".
Some "wiki" type tools allow that kind of feedback and I believe it would be
crucial, because I believe you will never get an official committee to vet
the models -- it has to be done through independent user evaluations.  

Good luck, and keep plugging on this idea, it's a good one.   

Yes, I went to your link and voted.

Best regards,
Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc.,
tel +1 509-997-0505,  howie03@sigcon.com
www.sigcon.com -- High-Speed Digital Design seminars, publications and films
 




- -----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On
Behalf Of steve weir
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 6:09 PM
To: colin_warwick@agilent.com
Cc: si-list@freelists.org
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS
model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?

My view on the usefulness of such a directory all depends on how well the
directory would be maintained / policed and whether the directory would
include information that would indicate the model's likely usefulness.
There are a lot of IBIS ( HSPICE models as well for that matter ), that
aren't particularly useful.  Many have not been verified in any way.  Some
of them do not even parse. 

Anyway, if this is going to be undertaken, I would really like to see
something similar to the way that the FPGA vendors list IP cores.

Target Model Manufacturer
Target Model Part Number
Free or pay model
Model basis:  Raw original model, SPICE derived model, Measurement based
model IBIS version Passed parser or not w/ parser version Model verified or
not Link to model, or model supplier

Steve



colin_warwick@agilent.com wrote:
  
    
      
Hi,

Bottom line on top: Any interest in using and/or contributing to an IBIS
    
      
        
model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Please vote in this
informal straw poll:
  
    
      
    
      
        
http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-director
y/   
  
    
      
...and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this thread.

Backstory: I posted the message below to the IBIS lists, but was 
disappointed that the response was fairly mute. So, I'm posting it 
here in the hope it will resonate with si-listers. (If you are also on 
the IBIS lists, this is a duplicate. Sorry!)


Best regards,

- -- Colin Warwick
Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA

- -----Original Message-----
From: WARWICK,COLIN
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:59 AM
To: IBIS-Interconnect; 'ibis-macro@freelists.org'
Subject: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model
    
      
        
directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?
  
    
      
Hi,

I get several emails a month from customers asking "Is there an IBIS model
    
      
        
for XYZ part from ABC IC vendor". I usually point them at:
  
    
      
http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html
http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm

If the info is out-of-date (as is often the case), I ask them to do an 
advanced Google search like: 
http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c
om

(replace someicvendordomain.com with the IC vendor's domain, 
obviously)

But I'm wondering if there's a better way than "spray and pray" Googling
    
      
        
or burdening a single librarian with hundreds of update requests.
  
    
      
Sooo...How about crowdsourcing?

"Crowd-what-ing," you say? Here's a definition from wikipedia:

'Crowdsourcing is a neologistic compound of Crowd and Outsourcing for the
    
      
        
act of taking tasks traditionally performed by an employee or contractor,
and outsourcing them to a group of people or community, through an "open
call" to a large group of people (a crowd) asking for contributions.'
  
    
      
(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing  )

Specifically, I'm wondering if we should create a table off of the main
    
      
        
IBIS page on wikipedia: 
  
    
      
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica
tion

...(or some other wiki) for IC vendors to update their info themselves. It
    
      
        
would look something like this prototype I cobbled together:
  
    
      
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information
_Specification/Table_of_IBIS_models

Thoughts? Please vote in this informal straw poll:

http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di
rectory/

and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this thread.

Best regards,

- -- Colin Warwick
Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA


--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 11:45:41 -0500 From: "Aubrey Sparkman" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Mike, I would like more information on the debate about the value of merely passing on JEDEC limits versus the actual performance range of a part population. Your purchasing department would certainly appreciate the ability to do parts swapping. The only reason I can think of to qualify and use a model for the actual performance of a single supplier would be if I were going to try to optimized the performance of an interface for a specific design. This would also mean I might have to pay more for that part due to sole source, non-competitive pricing. IMHO, generic waveforms have less value than in the past. As buffers are being pushed to switch faster, they are inherently becoming more linear. Last time I needed a waveform was to model an intentional non-linearity that the supplier introduced in a pull-down to slow the part down so it would meet the fall time spec. Another value for the users of the specification would be that the specification would be more likely to be complete and realistic. I have seen specs in the past that had holes and non-overlap. I think I even remember one that allowed a Vol higher than the Vil.... As far as the testing goes, I'm fairly sure that would NOT be a problem. Indeed, the spec models would probably be tested multiple times by the multiple users. Some of us want our products to be robust so we try to break things... :-) Certainly I would spend some time verifying and validating any model I used. I, for one, would like us users to push back on any new interface specification that did not include buffer models and test setup. Most suppliers already do demo boards -- why not models? This gets me back to one of my favorite platitudes: "A measurement for every model and a model for every measurement. Without both, I don't believe either." Aubrey Sparkman 512-461-6165 asparky@sparkright-solutions.com - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Nikonchuk Sergey-R6294C Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:42 AM To: Mike LaBonte (milabont); Aubrey Sparkman; si-list@freelists.org; ibis-users@eda.org Cc: steve weir; Lynne D. Green; colin_warwick@agilent.com Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? I am quite new IBIS models developer, but I am fully support idea of Reference IBIS models for standard interfaces. It would be really helpful to align our product/technology specific models to the Standard Requirements, expectations, specifications. And verify them accordingly. Regards Sergey Nikonchuk Characterization and View Generation TSO / DT / DC / IO Libraries www.freescale.com Phone: +7 (495) 589 1839 Mobile: +7 (916) 993 3467 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Mike LaBonte (milabont) Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:33 PM To: Aubrey Sparkman; si-list@freelists.org; ibis-users@eda.org Cc: steve weir; Lynne D. Green; colin_warwick@agilent.com Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? The IBIS Quality spec goes beyond IBISCHK. There was some discussion at one point about having the IBIS Models page somehow indicate IBIS Quality adoption, but no agreement on a fair way to do it resulted. I like the idea of spec-based IBIS models, even if they are incomplete templates. I find that parts made to JEDEC specs, for example, sometimes omit data like [Receiver Thresholds] from their IBIS files. Some data are absent even from the datasheets, as though a reference to the JEDEC spec should suffice. There is an interesting debate about the value of merely passing on JEDEC limits versus the actual performance range of a part population. And there may be no great way to produce generic waveforms for a spec-standard IBIS model. If something reasonable can be produced, Aubrey has an interesting point that such an IBIS model might be used to verify that a design should work with any spec-compliant part, without simulating the separate IBIS files from each vendor. In any event I think if organizations like JEDEC produced IBIS files for each spec they would be doing everyone a favor. Some elements could be lifted from them, and they could provide a reference for limit checking vendor-specific IBIS models. Maybe anyone could contribute these spec-standard models, but who would verify that they accurate reflect the specs? Mike - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Aubrey Sparkman Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 9:18 PM To: si-list@freelists.org; ibis-users@eda.org Cc: 'steve weir'; 'Lynne D. Green'; colin_warwick@agilent.com Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? I like the idea of crowdsource, but I DON'T agree that parser clean is sufficient. I've seen too many models that pass parser but have curves that are not realistic. While many of the IBIS models I've used in the past have been considered IP, there is a class of models that would be very valuable and not subject to IP. Back in the day, I made a model for a generic PCI-X buffer model that reflected the PCI-X buffer specification. Using that model was, in most cases, preferable to using supplier specific buffer models because it enabled me to claim that any suppliers' product that met the PCI-X specification would work in my system. Does anyone volunteer to create spec based models for the current interfaces such as PCIe-GenX, USB-x, SATA, SAS, etc? Aubrey Sparkman 512-461-6165 asparky@sparkright-solutions.com - -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 6:51 PM To: si-list@freelists.org Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? The IBIS organization is a natural place to maintain a catalog and records of any checks done by vendors: silicon and/or EDA. The market value to the EDA vendors would be the ability to state the breadth of models that their tools support which might have enough market value to justify the ongoing cost. I would expect that the effort to create automated or semiautomated checking for compatibility would be well within the capability of each EDA vendor and make the amortized cost quite low. I think for any scheme to stand a chance of market acceptance, it cannot impose any substantial additional cost in dollars and/or time on silicon vendors. Best Regards, Steve. Lynne D. Green wrote: > > Steve and Colin, > > The "neutral" third party could be the IBIS Model Review Committee > (who are representatives from EDA vendors). We could perhaps report > models that pass the parser with no errors and no warnings. Someone > could encourage vendors to post their parser output file, with > comments about why particular warnings/errors were accepted, but that would be the vendor's job. > > Nothing "bad" would be reported about a particular IBIS file. And > only reporting "parser clean" might help address Jon's (very true) > point about IP protection. (And more vendors might take advantage of > our "neutral" review service to get on this list.) > > Another useful thing on the "wiki" might be educational material: > articles and educational materials people contribute, links to IBIS > parser, specs, cookbook, etc. > > Cheers, > Lynne > > Lynne Green > Chair > IBIS Model Review Committee > > > steve weir wrote: Colin, I don't see an open community Wiki-like > structure ever getting vendor support. There is just too much exposure > to unchecked, and potentially unfounded or even malicious criticism. > We do not live in suchan egalitarian society that vendors locked in > tight competition might nottry and get an edge in new product adoption > by spreading FUD over their competitor's offerings. In a world where > NDA's are required just to obtain data sheets I find it nearly > impossible to believe vendors would expose themselves in such a public > and difficult to control way. I think that if anything is going to come of this it would have to be either of the form of: > a. Voluntary vendor disclosure of standards compliance or b. Vendor > participation in compliance testing by an accepted neutral third party > such as a standards committee (as neutral as those can be). Best > regards, Steve colin_warwick@agilent.com[1] wrote: Hi Jon, Yes, IP and > updates are an issue,so the plan is to let IC vendors build a > directory of links and/or "how-to-get-the-model" instructions, not the > models themselves. Users will add reviews and ratings and IBISCHK > scores. -- Colin Warwick Signal IntegrityProduct Marketing Manager, > Agilent EEsof EDA blog http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com[2] -----Original Message----- From: > si-list-bounce@freelists.org[3] > [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org[4]] On Behalf Of Powell, Jon N > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:48 AM To: steve weir; > si-list@freelists.org[5] Cc: bob@teraspeed.com[6]; ibis@eda.org[7]; > ibis-users@eda.org[8] Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for > comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as > wikipedia? Isn't there also a legal issue here? Who owns the IP or the > copyright and who is going to be responsible for violation of said > when a copy is kept in a database? Jon Powell EPSD Product SI 將 > -----OriginalMessage----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org[9] > [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org[10]] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: > Monday, April 05, 2010 6:58 PM To: si-list@freelists.org[11] Cc: > bob@teraspeed.com[12]; ibis@eda.org[13]; ibis-users@eda.org[14] Subject: > [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model > directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Colin, Hosting is so > cheap as to be a non-issue. Setting up the database mechanics is not > particularly difficult either. The real cost is in the administration. > In my opinion this needs people willing to serve as librarians who > will act as the gate keepers so that the site is not overrun with junk. Best Regards, Steve. > colin_warwick@agilent.com[15] wrote: Hi, Thanks to everyone for the > feedback and encouragement :-) There are several options each with > pros and cons * Webpage with an appointed honorary librarian * Wikis > e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.wikimatrix.org/[16] * > Discussion forums (bulletin > boards) e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.forummatrix.org/[17] * > Email reflectors like the si-list http://freelists.org[18] * Shared > document/table like a Google Docs spreadsheet. > http://docs.google.com/[19] * Hybrids of the above like Google Wave > http://wave.google.com[20] which they say is a "next generation" > email/collaboration/documentation tool Here are some issues with > each: * Ease-of-use versus functionality: email is easy to use, but > email reflectors and forums have limited searchablity and it's hard to > aggregate threads of (possibility duplicative) conversations. * > WYSIWYG versus markup > languages: some wikis and forums require you learn a mark up language. > * "Onetruth" (conclusion) versus "Let a hundred flowers blossom" > (conversation)(yes, I do understand the irony of Mao Zedong's imperative): > **Wikis attempt to arrive at some sort of consensus between the > editors on the readers' behalf (although there's usually a discussion > page for editors behind the "real" page for readers) whereas ** > Discussion Forums let everyonevoice their own opinion and each reader > has to plow through the threads to draw their own conclusion from the > (possibly heated) > conversation.* Reputation: How do you hold a contributor accountable > for their contribution? How exclude spam in? * Privacy: How much info > to do I have to submit to sign up? As a reader? As a writer? How to > prevent harvesting of personal info by nefarious agents? * > History/reversion: How do we track and undo "bad" edits? How to delete "bad" postings? * Who pays? > There are plenty of "free" hosting sites, usually ad-funded. Do we > want an adfree site by paying to self-hosting fee? If so, how do we split the check? > * Structured versus unstructured: Do you want a rigorous database > schema (specific column headings/fields for each row/record in > (possibly > interlinked) tables)? Or more free form? If structured, how to come to > a consensus schema? * Who runs the thing? What are the costs and > benefits for the admin? I added a second straw poll to the bottom of: > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models > -directory/[21] ...so you can vote for your favorite... Best regards, > -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA > -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org[22] > [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org[23]] On Behalf Of Howard Johnson Sent: > Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:00 AM To: si-list@freelists.org[24] Subject: > [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model > directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Hey Colin, I think you > are on to a good idea. Individual users spend way too much time > farting around trying to put together good IBIS models. Much of that effort seems wasted. > I'd like to see the list include some sort of "user voting" feature so > the readers of the list could see if other people found the model > "useful". Some "wiki" type tools allow that kind of feedback and I > believe it would be crucial, because I believe you will never get an > official committee to vet the models -- it has to be done through > independent user evaluations. Good luck, and keep plugging on this > idea, it's a good one. Yes, I went to your link and voted. Best > regards, Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc., > tel+1 509-997-0505, howie03@sigcon.com[25] www.sigcon.com[26] -- > tel+High-Speed > Digital Design seminars, publications and films -----Original > Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org[27] > [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org[28]] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: > Friday, April 02, 2010 6:09 PM To: colin_warwick@agilent.com[29] Cc: > si-list@freelists.org[30] Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call > for > comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as > wikipedia? My view on the usefulness of such a directory all depends > on how well the directory would be maintained / policed and whether > the directory would include information that would indicate the model's likely usefulness. > There are a lot of IBIS ( HSPICE models as well for that matter ), > that aren't particularly useful. Many have not been verified in any > way. Some of them do not even parse. Anyway, if this is going to be > undertaken, I would really like to see something similar to the way > that the FPGA vendors list IPcores. Target Model Manufacturer Target > Model Part Number Free or pay modelModel basis: Raw original model, > SPICE derived model, Measurement based model IBIS version Passed > parser or not w/ parser version Model verified or not Link to model, > or model supplier Steve colin_warwick@agilent.com[31] > wrote: Hi, Bottom line on top: Any interest in using and/or > contributing to an IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as > wikipedia? Please vote in this informal straw poll: > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models > -director[32y/ ...and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this > thread. Backstory: I posted the message below to the IBIS lists, but > was disappointed that the response was fairly mute. So, I'm posting it > here in the hope it will resonate with si-listers. (If you are also on > the IBIS lists, this is a duplicate. Sorry!) Best regards, -- Colin > Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA > -----Original Message----- From:WARWICK,COLIN Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:59 AM To: > IBIS-Interconnect; 'ibis-macro@freelists.org[33]' Subject: Straw poll > and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a > wiki such as wikipedia? Hi, I get several emails a month from > customers asking "Is there an IBIS model for XYZ part from ABC IC vendor". I usually point them at: > http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html[34] > http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm[35] If the info is > out-of-date (as is often the case), I ask them to do an advanced > Google search like: > http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c > [36] om(replace someicvendordomain.com with the IC vendor's domain, > obviously) ButI'm wondering if there's a better way than "spray and > pray" Googling or burdening a single librarian with hundreds of update > requests. Sooo...How about crowdsourcing? "Crowd-what-ing," you say? > Here's a definition from > wikipedia: 'Crowdsourcing is a neologistic compound of Crowd and > Outsourcing for the act of taking tasks traditionally performed by an > employee or contractor, and outsourcing them to a group of people or > community, through an "open call" to a large group of people (a crowd) > asking for contributions.' (from > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing[37] ) Specifically, I'm > wondering if we should create a table off of the main IBIS page on wikipedia: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica > [38] tion ...(or some other wiki) for IC vendors to update their info > themselves. > It would look something like this prototype I cobbled together: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information > [39] _Specification/Table_of_IBIS_models Thoughts? Please vote in this > informal straw poll: > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di > [40] rectory/ and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this > thread. Best regards, -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product > Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA > > > --- Links --- > 1 mailto:colin_warwick@agilent.com > 2 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com > 3 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 4 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 5 mailto:si-list@freelists.org > 6 mailto:bob@teraspeed.com > 7 mailto:ibis@eda.org > 8 mailto:ibis-users@eda.org > 9 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 10 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 11 mailto:si-list@freelists.org > 12 mailto:bob@teraspeed.com > 13 mailto:ibis@eda.org > 14 mailto:ibis-users@eda.org > 15 mailto:colin_warwick@agilent.com > 16 http://www.wikimatrix.org/ > 17 http://www.forummatrix.org/ > 18 http://freelists.org > 19 http://docs.google.com/ > 20 http://wave.google.com > 21 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-directory/ > 22 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 23 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 24 mailto:si-list@freelists.org > 25 mailto:howie03@sigcon.com > 26 http://www.sigcon.com > 27 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 28 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 29 mailto:colin_warwick@agilent.com > 30 mailto:si-list@freelists.org > 31 mailto:colin_warwick@agilent.com > 32 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-director > 33 mailto:ibis-macro@freelists.org > 34 http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html > 35 http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm > 36 http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c > 37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing > 38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica > 39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information > 40 > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@freelists.org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@freelists.org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > - -- Steve Weir IPBLOX, LLC 150 N. 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