From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org (ibis-users) To: ibis-users-digest@eda.org Subject: ibis-users V1 #142 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ibis-users@eda.org Errors-To: owner-ibis-users@eda.org Precedence: bulk ibis-users Friday, April 23 2010 Volume 01 : Number 142 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 20:57:19 -0700 From: Bob Ross Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] Combined Pulldown and Pullup warnings when using parse 4.0 Bonnie: Here are some ideas in your text, although seeing the actual model might allow me to make specific comments. Bob Baker, Bonnie wrote: > IBIS-users, > > > > I am responsible for creating models for my company?s precision mixed > signal devices. I create these models through the IC spice simulations > and I use the three corners for my simulation (power, voltage, process). > Once I convert the spice data to IBIS I occasionally get these warnings > from the 4.0 parse: > > > > WARNING - Combined Pulldown for Model: GPIO Typical data is non-monotonic > > WARNING - Combined Pulldown for Model: GPIO Minimum data is non-monotonic > > WARNING - Combined Pulldown for Model: GPIO Maximum data is non-monotonic > > WARNING - Combined Pullup for Model: GPIO Maximum data is non-monotonic > > > > When I view the data graphically, I am unable to see the point where > this warning is generated. I assume that this warning is referring to > the calculated summation of the pulldown (or pullup) data, ground clamp, > and power clamp data. > > > > My questions are: > > 1. How do I identify the region(s) where this monotonicity problem > is occurring? The Notes messages might give an indication which table in non-monotonic (e.g. it might be one or both of the clamps.) Also, a line number or voltage value might point to where the non-monotonic area occurs. Voltage values are relative to ground, so the Pullup and Power Clamp table locations must be calculated. > > 2. What corrective action can I take to remove these warnings? If it is just numerical noise, you can just remove some points. If if is in the clamp region, you might just extrapolate the clamp data if it folds back. > > 3. What impact will this monotonicity problem have on my customers > as they use this IBIS model into their simulations? It may depend on the extent, but in general it should be minor. But theoretical situations can occur where the model does not converge to a stable starting point. > > 4. Will this warning cause problems in some or all of the EDA > platforms that simulate IBIS circuits? Probably not, but it depends on the actual waveforms and how bad the non-monotonic data is and in what region. > > > > Another issue with these warnings is, I sometimes have a ?good? file > without errors but when I go back to the buffers in the file and correct > the I-V/V-t mismatches these types of warnings are generated. Once > again, graphical inspection does not help in identifying the point where > these warning are generated . My questions for this issue are: > > 1. Do I go back to my original ?good? file and discard the I-V/V-t > corrections? If you correct the V-T mismatches by re-scaling the V-T data, the I-V warnings should not occur. > > 2. How do I identify the region(s) where this monotonicity problem > is occurring? Again, look at the Notes for guidance > > 3. What corrective action can I take to remove these warnings? > Smooth out minor numerical noise problems, and probably extrolate data that is in the clamp regions. > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Bonnie Baker > > Texas Instruments, Tucson > > > > > > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner , and is > believed to be clean. - -- Bob Ross Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC Teraspeed Labs 121 North River Drive 13610 SW Harness Lane Narragansett, RI 02882 Beaverton, OR 97008 401-284-1827 503-430-1065 http://www.teraspeed.com 503-246-8048 Direct bob@teraspeed.com Teraspeed is a registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 09:27:09 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ralf_Br=FCning?= Subject: [IBIS-Users] European IBIS Summit @ SPI 2010 - Third Call for Papers/Participation - Preliminary Agenda ======================================================================= = = = European IBIS Summit @ SPI 2010 - Third Call for Papers & = = Third Call for Participation = = = ======================================================================= We have been holding successful European IBIS Summit Meetings for more then 10 years. This year we are again holding a meeting along with 14th IEEE Workshop on Signal Propagation and Interconnects (SPI) 2010 on Wednesday, May 12th, 2010. The purpose is to promote communication among users and developers of IBIS models in Europe. The meeting is FREE and open to everyone. Below is some information on the IBIS Summit and some related events. Even despite the current economic situation you are hereby invited to register to attend and also to submit presentation proposals. We plan to have a full program of interesting topics, as noted in the Agenda portion of the Announcement below. Ralf Bruening Product Manager High Speed Design ZUKEN EMC Technology Center - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- E U R O P E A N I B I S S U M M I T M E E T I N G T H I R D C A L L F O R P A R T I C I P A T I O N - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Time/Date: 12:30 - 17:30, Wednesday, May 12th, 2010 Location: Van der Valk Hotel, Hildesheim, Germany (in the old city center of Hildesheim) Meeting-Room: "Wollenweber I" (may be subject of change) Van der Valk Hotel Hildesheim Markt 4 31134 Hildesheim Germany phone:+49 (0)5121 300 0 fax: +49 (0)5121 134 298 Content: Presentations and Discussions Purpose: Solicit and Exchange IBIS Model Related Information and Ideas Sponsors: Agilent Technology, Mentor Graphics, Sintecs BV, Sigrity and Zuken If your company would be interested in sponsoring this event, please contact Ralf Bruening under: . SPI Workshop 2010: May 09th-12th, 2010. SPI Location: van der Valk Hotel, Hildesheim, Germany SPI URL: www.spi.uni-hannover.de - -------------------------------------------------------------------- BACKGROUND We have had successful IBIS meetings along the DATe conference for many years. As we got the feedback that Interconnect design, high speed, signal integrity and PCB design aspects are less represented at DATe in the last years this made this conference less attractive for IBIS users, so we decided to move the yearly European IBIS meeting to take place along with the SPI workshop, which is since many years a successful forum for engineers to discuss on signal integrity and modelling topics. This meeting will be conducted as a formal IBIS Summit Meeting. Presentations are expected to be available and archived in an electronic format, and minutes of the meeting will be issued. Any pending formal decisions (votes) will be announced at least two weeks prior to the meeting. Topics and presentations may include (list is open for further contributions): - Submitted Presentations on IBIS Topics (See below) - Information about the most recent IBIS Developments - Less formal Ad Hoc Presentations and Discussions - IBIS and Modelling Questions and Answers The meeting is free and open to everyone. Refreshments & coffee breaks are planned. CALL FOR PARTICIPANTS People involved in IBIS Model development, EDA tool development, and digital circuit design are invited to participate in the European IBIS Summit meeting. If you plan to participate, please register with the information below (deadline, April 30th, 2010): Name: E-mail address: Company: Telephone: Send to: Ralf Bruening (ralf.bruening@zuken.com) Bob Ross (bob@teraspeed.com) CALL FOR PRESENTATIONS Presentations are expected to be technical focused. According to the rules of the IBIS meetings we cannot accept product marketing or EDA tool focused presentations. We are seeking presentations from individuals who have IBIS experiences or issues. Some suggested subjects of interest are: - IBIS Model Development Experiences - Company IBIS Standards and Requirements - Generating & Validating IBIS Models - Future IBIS Developments and Requirements (i.e. IBIS AMI) - Modeling of dedicated technology issues (i.e., connectors, very high speed interfaces) - EMC/EMI and Power Integrity Issues - Related modelling issues (i.e. SPICE, S-Parameter modelling) - Experiences using IBIS in the PCB Design process Format of Presentation: LCD Projections Time: 15-30 Minutes Electronic Archival: We request electronic versions for so they can be archived and also made available to non-attendees. We prefer Power Point or Acrobat formats. Deadline: April 30, 2010. Please send presentations for processing and brief review in advance. Otherwise please plan to bring 30 copies for the meeting. If you plan a presentation, please supply: Title: Presenter: E-mail address: Company: Telephone: Estimated Time: Send this to both: Ralf Bruening (ralf.bruening@zuken.com) Bob Ross (bob@teraspeed.com) AGENDA ====== The agenda includes presentations, discussions, breaks and refreshments. This will be developed as presentation proposals are received. Topics (titles and presenters may change) to date are expected to include: - IBIS Activities, Bob Ross, Teraspeed Consulting Group - Sintecs IBIS Model Verification, Hans Klos, Sintecs BV - IBIS Driver Schedule Modeling, Eckhard Lenski, Nokia-Siemens - More on C_comp - How to Represent C_comp in IBIS Buffer Model, Lance Wang, IO Methodology - Qualification of Tabulated Scattering Parameters, Stefano Grivet-Talocio, Politecnico di Torino and IdemWorks - Signal Loop Inductance in [Pin] and [Package Model], Randy Wolf, Micron Technology, presented by Anders Ekholm, Ericsson - IBIS-AMI topic, Srdjan Djordjevic, Sigrity - IBIS-AMI topic, Danil Kirsanov, Ansys/Ansoft - Topic to be determined, Amolak Badesha, Agilent Technologies LIST OF NEARBY HOTELS See for travel directions, workshop hotels and other information, other hotels in Hildesheim city area can be found using www.hrs.com (or mail me for guidance) Conference hotel: Van der Valk Hildesheim URL: http://www.vandervalk.de/en/hotel-hildesheim-hannover.html - -------------------------------------------------------------------- _____________________________________________ Ralf Bruening Product Manager/Senior Consultant Partner Group High Speed Design/Signal & Power Integrity Zuken EMC Technology Center Vattmannstr.3 33100 Paderborn - Germany Tel: ++49 (0) 5251 150 621 Fax: ++49 (0) 5251 150 700 Cell: ++49 (0) 170 4228512 Email: ralf.bruening@zuken.com Web: http://www.zuken.com Zuken Gesellschaft mit beschraenkter Haftung Sitz der Gesellschaft: Hallbergmoos Register: Amtsgericht Muenchen HBR 108421 Geschäftsführer: Jinya Katsube, Gerhard Lipski _____________________________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 20:37:00 +0800 From: ji xiao Subject: [IBIS-Users] what is the use of minimum and maximum data in IBIS? - --000e0cd5cda02a3cc7048459de25 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi,guys. Usually in IBIS simulation, we use typ data, then what's the use of min. and max. data? Some papers said," a slow model can be created by combining the min. currents with max. ramp time and max. package element values. The slow model can be used to determine the propagation time". However, in my understanding, IBIS model can only simulate the buffer delay time. Is it true that it can be used to determine the propagation time in that way? Thanks and regards, Yuancheng - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - --000e0cd5cda02a3cc7048459de25 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,guys. Usually in IBIS simulation, we use typ data, then what's = the use of min. and max. data?
Some papers said," a slow model can be created by combining the m= in. currents with max. ramp time and max. package element values. The slow = model can be used to determine the propagation time". However, in my u= nderstanding, IBIS model can only simulate the buffer delay time. Is it tru= e that it can be used to determine the propagation time in that way?
=A0
Thanks and regards,
Yuancheng

--=20
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean. - --000e0cd5cda02a3cc7048459de25-- - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 16:49:22 -0500 From: "Baker, Bonnie" Subject: [IBIS-Users] Combined Pulldown and Pullup warnings when using parse 4.0 - --_000_9863FC115479184193CC60C8C2F26B1013202382C4dlee04enttico_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IBIS-users, I am responsible for creating models for my company's precision mixed sign= al devices. I create these models through the IC spice simulations and I us= e the three corners for my simulation (power, voltage, process). Once I con= vert the spice data to IBIS I occasionally get these warnings from the 4.0 = parse: WARNING - Combined Pulldown for Model: GPIO Typical data is non-monotonic WARNING - Combined Pulldown for Model: GPIO Minimum data is non-monotonic WARNING - Combined Pulldown for Model: GPIO Maximum data is non-monotonic WARNING - Combined Pullup for Model: GPIO Maximum data is non-monotonic When I view the data graphically, I am unable to see the point where this w= arning is generated. I assume that this warning is referring to the calcula= ted summation of the pulldown (or pullup) data, ground clamp, and power cla= mp data. My questions are: 1. How do I identify the region(s) where this monotonicity problem is= occurring? 2. What corrective action can I take to remove these warnings? 3. What impact will this monotonicity problem have on my customers as= they use this IBIS model into their simulations? 4. Will this warning cause problems in some or all of the EDA platfor= ms that simulate IBIS circuits? Another issue with these warnings is, I sometimes have a "good" file withou= t errors but when I go back to the buffers in the file and correct the I-V/= V-t mismatches these types of warnings are generated. Once again, graphical= inspection does not help in identifying the point where these warning are = generated . My questions for this issue are: 1. Do I go back to my original "good" file and discard the I-V/V-t co= rrections? 2. How do I identify the region(s) where this monotonicity problem is= occurring? 3. What corrective action can I take to remove these warnings? Best Regards, Bonnie Baker Texas Instruments, Tucson - --=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - --_000_9863FC115479184193CC60C8C2F26B1013202382C4dlee04enttico_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

IBIS-users,

 

I am responsible for creating models for my company̵= 7;s  precision mixed signal devices. I create these models through the IC spice simulations and I use the three corners for my simulation (power, voltage, process). On= ce I convert the spice data to IBIS I occasionally get these warnings from the 4= .0 parse:

 

WARNING - Combined Pulldown for Model: GPIO Typical data= is non-monotonic

WARNING - Combined Pulldown for Model: GPIO Minimum data= is non-monotonic

WARNING - Combined Pulldown for Model: GPIO Maximum data= is non-monotonic

WARNING - Combined Pullup for Model: GPIO Maximum data is non-monotonic

 

When I view the data graphically, I am unable to see the point where this warning is generated. I assume that this warning is referr= ing to the calculated summation of the pulldown (or pullup) data, ground clamp,= and power clamp data.

 

My questions are:

1.      = Ho= w do I identify the region(s) where this monotonicity problem is occurring?  

2.      = Wh= at corrective action can I take to remove these warnings?

3.      = Wh= at impact will this monotonicity problem have on my customers as they use this IBIS m= odel into their simulations?

4.      = Wi= ll this warning cause problems in some or all of the EDA platforms that simulate IB= IS circuits?

 

Another issue with these warnings is, I sometimes have a= “good” file without errors but when I go back to the buffers in the file and corre= ct the I-V/V-t mismatches these types of warnings are generated. Once again, graphical inspection does not help in identifying the point where these war= ning are generated . My questions for this issue are:

1.      = Do= I go back to my original “good” file and discard the I-V/V-t corrections?=

2.      = Ho= w do I identify the region(s) where this monotonicity problem is occurring?  

3.      = Wh= at corrective action can I take to remove these warnings?

 

 

 

Best Regards,

 

Bonnie Baker

Texas Instruments, Tucson

 

 

 


--=20
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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believed to be clean. - --_000_9863FC115479184193CC60C8C2F26B1013202382C4dlee04enttico_-- - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:02:58 +0100 From: "Nikonchuk Sergey-R6294C" Subject: [IBIS-Users] ibischk5 Issue for ISSO_PU/ISSO_PD keywords This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAE152.FB75DD9D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_002_01CAE152.FB75DD9D" - ------_=_NextPart_002_01CAE152.FB75DD9D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Community, During evaluation of new IBIS5.0 keywords we faced strange behavior of ibischk5 version 5.0.3 for the ISSO_PU/ISSO_PD keywords. =20 There is two type of issues: 1. Looks like "Typ" conditions does NOT checked at all.=20 At the first time we had a bit wrong implementation of ISSO_PU curves capturing. We had Warning messages for Min and Max keywords, but NOT Typ which one was wrong really as well. Could you double check a code, please? =20 2. Additional question about "threshold" or "accuracy" level when IBISCHK compare currents.. Example is below: =20 WARNING - Model model_example: Minimum ISSO_PU current (-0.015A) at 0V does not match Pullup current (-0.015A) at reference ( 0.000V) WARNING - Model model_example: Minimum ISSO_PD current ( 0.017A) at 0V does not match Pulldown current ( 0.017A) at reference ( 1.620V)=20 WARNING - Model model_example: Maximum ISSO_PU current (-0.017A) at 0V does not match Pullup current (-0.017A) at reference ( 0.000V)=20 WARNING - Model model_example: Maximum ISSO_PD current ( 0.025A) at 0V does not match Pulldown current ( 0.025A) at reference ( 1.980V) =20 As You can see - from report point of view values looks exactly same. It's looks like "interpolation" issue - we have no exact voltage reference points in our I-V data. The neighbor points are quite close to the expected values.. =20 So, Is it possible to either print actual current values with all significant numbers, Or - use some "threshold" (like as 1e-9A or so) to filter out micro-differences ... =20 =20 Do you have any comments about? Is it looks like real problem? If so - what is formal procedure to open a Bug report for the IBISCHK ? =20 Regards, Sergey Nikonchuk=20 Characterization and View Generation=20 TSO / DT / DC / IO Libraries Freescale Semiconductor, Inc.=20 www.freescale.com =20 Contacts:=20 Phone +7 (495) 589 1839=20 Mobile +7 (916) 993 3467=20 Fax +7 (495) 787 0151=20 Sergey.Nikonchuk@freescale.com =20 This e-mail and any attachments have been classified as:=20 [x] Public=20 [ ] Internal Use Only=20 [ ] Confidential Proprietary=20 =20 =20 - --=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - ------_=_NextPart_002_01CAE152.FB75DD9D Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear=20 Community,
During ev= aluation of=20 new IBIS5.0 keywords we faced strange behavior of ibischk5 version 5.0.3 fo= r the=20 ISSO_PU/ISSO_PD keywords.
 
There is = two type of=20 issues:
1. Looks = like "Typ"=20 conditions does NOT checked at all.
At the fi= rst time we=20 had a bit wrong implementation of ISSO_PU curves capturing.
We had Wa= rning=20 messages for Min and Max keywords, but NOT Typ which one was wrong really a= s=20 well.
Could you= double=20 check a code, please?
 
2. Additi= onal=20 question about "threshold" or "accuracy" level when IBISCHK compare=20 currents..
Example i= s=20 below:
 
WARNING - Model model_example: Minimum ISSO_PU current (-0.015= A) at=20 0V does not match Pullup current (-0.015A) at reference ( 0.000V)
WARNING - Model model_example: Minimum ISS= O_PD=20 current ( 0.017A) at 0V does not match Pulldown current ( 0.017A) at refere= nce (=20 1.620V)
WARNING - Model model_example: Maximum ISS= O_PU=20 current (-0.017A) at 0V does not match Pullup current (-0.017A) at referenc= e (=20 0.000V)
WARNING - Model model_example: Maximum ISS= O_PD=20 current ( 0.025A) at 0V does not match Pulldown current ( 0.025A) at refere= nce (=20 1.980V)
 
As You=20 can see - from report point of view values looks exactly=20 same.
It's look= s like=20 "interpolation" issue - we have no exact voltage reference points in our I-= V=20 data.
The neigh= bor points=20 are quite close to the expected values..
 
So, Is it= possible=20 to either print actual current values with all significant=20 numbers,
Or - use = some=20 "threshold" (like as 1e-9A or so) to filter out micro-differences=20 ...
 
 =
Do you ha= ve any=20 comments about? Is it looks like real problem?
If so - w= hat is=20 formal procedure to open a Bug report for the IBISCHK ?
 
Regards,

Sergey Nikonchuk
Characterizat= ion and=20 View Generation
TSO / DT / DC / IO Libraries
Freesca= le=20 Semiconductor, Inc.
www.freescale.com

Contacts:
Phone +7 (495) 589 1= 839=20
Mobile +7 (916) 993 3467
Fax +7 (495) 787 0151
Sergey.Nikonchuk@frees= cale.com

This e-mail and any attachments ha= ve been=20 classified as:
[x] Public
[= =20 ] Internal Use Only
[ ] Confidential Proprietary=20

 

 

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http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 08:37:53 -0700 From: "Tom Dagostino" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] what is the use of minimum and maximum data in IBIS? This is a multipart message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0341_01CADD40.1B576C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For CMOS devices three things happen in the min corner. First the edge rate gets slower. Second the drive strength weakens. A slower edge rate will change timing. A weaker driver will not swing as many Volts in the output. So with a slower edge and a lower swing it take longer for the edge to reach the thresholds, Vinl and Vinh. And third, the prop delay increases. Conversely, the max corner is faster and stronger. Like the min corner the timing changes and more important the faster edge rate will cause more crosstalk and more signal integrity issues. Tom Dagostino Teraspeed(R) Labs 13610 SW Harness Lane Beaverton, OR 97008 503-430-1065 503-430-1285 FAX tom@teraspeed.com www.teraspeed.com Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 401-284-1827 From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of ji xiao Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 5:37 AM To: ibis-users Subject: [IBIS-Users] what is the use of minimum and maximum data in IBIS? Hi,guys. Usually in IBIS simulation, we use typ data, then what's the use of min. and max. data? Some papers said," a slow model can be created by combining the min. currents with max. ramp time and max. package element values. The slow model can be used to determine the propagation time". However, in my understanding, IBIS model can only simulate the buffer delay time. Is it true that it can be used to determine the propagation time in that way? Thanks and regards, Yuancheng - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - ------=_NextPart_000_0341_01CADD40.1B576C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For CMOS devices three things happen in the min corner. First the edge rate gets slower. Second the drive strength weakens.  A slower edge rate will change timing. A weaker driver will not swing as many Volts = in the output.  So with a slower edge and a lower swing it take longer for the edge to reach the thresholds, Vinl and Vinh.  And third, the prop delay increases.

 

Conversely, the max corner is faster and stronger.  Like the min corner the timing changes and more important the faster edge rate w= ill cause more crosstalk and more signal integrity issues.

 

Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed(R) Labs
13610 SW Harness Lane
Beaverton, OR 97008
503-430-1065

503-430-1285 FAX
tom@teraspeed.com
www.teraspeed.com

Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
121 North River Drive
Narragansett, RI 02882
401-284-1827

 

From: owner-ibis-us= ers@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of ji xiao
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 5:37 AM
To: ibis-users
Subject: [IBIS-Users] what is the use of minimum and maximum data in IBIS?

 

Hi,guys. Usually in IBIS simulation, we use typ data, = then what's the use of min. and max. data?

Some papers said," a slow model can be created by combining the min. currents with max. ramp time and max. package element values. The slow model can be used to determine the propagation time". However, in my understanding, IBIS model can only simulate the buffer delay time. Is it true that it can be used to determine the propagation time in t= hat way?

 

Thanks and regards,

Yuancheng


- --
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanne= r, and is
believed to be clean.


--=20
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean. - ------=_NextPart_000_0341_01CADD40.1B576C00-- - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 09:18:20 -0400 From: Andrew Ingraham Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] what is the use of minimum and maximum data in IBIS? > Hi,guys. Usually in IBIS simulation, we use typ data, then what's the use of > min. and max. data? I am not a big IBIS model user, nor a big fan of IBIS, though I've been following IBIS since its earliest days. However, if an IBIS model contains meaningful Min/Typ/Max data, then I would rarely use the Typ data and instead mostly use the Min and Max data. That's because I'm looking for best and worst case results. Simulations with a typical model are nice to look at, but they don't show me critical data that I need (from a timing or signal integrity viewpoint). > Some papers said," a slow model can be created by combining the min. > currents with max. ramp time and max. package element values. The slow model > can be used to determine the propagation time". However, in my > understanding, IBIS model can only simulate the buffer delay time. Is it > true that it can be used to determine the propagation time in that way? You can never obtain buffer delay time from an IBIS model. IBIS models do not represent the whole buffer. They represent only how the buffer interacts with the external circuit, and can be used to simulate how the buffer drives into (or receives from) other devices and interconnects (traces or wires). The delay through the buffer is NOT represented by nor included in its IBIS model. I use IBIS model simulations to derive waveforms on the interconnect or at the receiver, and propagation delays of those signals on the interconnect. I use the corner models for that. It is not always the case that the slowest buffer results in the longest interconnect propagation time; nor that the fastest buffer results in the minimum interconnect delay. I am one who likes to simulate all corners and see for myself which ones are minimum and maximum. Andy - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:13:51 -0700 From: Bob Ross Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] ibischk5 Issue for ISSO_PU/ISSO_PD keywords Hi Sergey: The best approach is to draft a BUG report and use a format shown in other Bug reports: http://www.eda.org/ibis/bugs/ibis_bugs/ or given as http://www.eda.org/ibis/bugs/ibis_bugs/bugform.txt Leave the Administrative Tracking details blank. If you can reduce the test case file to a simple file, that would help. Then we can look at the exact details and decide how to resolve the issue. Please send this back to me. Best Regards, Bob Nikonchuk Sergey-R6294C wrote: > Dear Community, > During evaluation of new IBIS5.0 keywords we faced strange behavior of > ibischk5 version 5.0.3 for the ISSO_PU/ISSO_PD keywords. > > There is two type of issues: > 1. Looks like "Typ" conditions does NOT checked at all. > At the first time we had a bit wrong implementation of ISSO_PU curves > capturing. > We had Warning messages for Min and Max keywords, but NOT Typ which one > was wrong really as well. > Could you double check a code, please? > > 2. Additional question about "threshold" or "accuracy" level when > IBISCHK compare currents.. > Example is below: > > WARNING - Model model_example: Minimum ISSO_PU current (-0.015A) at 0V > does not match Pullup current (-0.015A) at reference ( 0.000V) > WARNING - Model model_example: Minimum ISSO_PD current ( 0.017A) at 0V > does not match Pulldown current ( 0.017A) at reference ( 1.620V) > WARNING - Model model_example: Maximum ISSO_PU current (-0.017A) at 0V > does not match Pullup current (-0.017A) at reference ( 0.000V) > WARNING - Model model_example: Maximum ISSO_PD current ( 0.025A) at 0V > does not match Pulldown current ( 0.025A) at reference ( 1.980V) > > As You can see - from report point of view values looks exactly same. > It's looks like "interpolation" issue - we have no exact voltage > reference points in our I-V data. > The neighbor points are quite close to the expected values.. > > So, Is it possible to either print actual current values with all > significant numbers, > Or - use some "threshold" (like as 1e-9A or so) to filter out > micro-differences ... > > > Do you have any comments about? Is it looks like real problem? > If so - what is formal procedure to open a Bug report for the IBISCHK ? > > Regards, > > Sergey Nikonchuk > Characterization and View Generation > TSO / DT / DC / IO Libraries > Freescale Semiconductor, Inc. > www.freescale.com > > Contacts: > Phone +7 (495) 589 1839 > Mobile +7 (916) 993 3467 > Fax +7 (495) 787 0151 > Sergey.Nikonchuk@freescale.com > > This e-mail and any attachments have been classified as: > [x] Public > [ ] Internal Use Only > [ ] Confidential Proprietary > > > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner , and is > believed to be clean. - -- Bob Ross Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC Teraspeed Labs 121 North River Drive 13610 SW Harness Lane Narragansett, RI 02882 Beaverton, OR 97008 401-284-1827 503-430-1065 http://www.teraspeed.com 503-246-8048 Direct bob@teraspeed.com Teraspeed is a registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:13:33 -0700 From: AR Rafiq Subject: [IBIS-Users] Re: [IBIS] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: CrowdsourceIBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Scott, Doesn't that defeat one of the objective of IBIS? Regards, AR Sent from my iPhone On Apr 6, 2010, at 1:23 PM, scott@teraspeed.com wrote: > for many models users cannot legally share information such as > ibischk scores. The owner of the website would be legally > responsible for policing each and every usage agreement. This is > why independent companies provide this service. > > We keep an updated ibis model links page on our website that bob > Ross manages > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: > Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:04:54 > To: ; ; > > Cc: ; ; > Subject: [IBIS] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: > Crowdsource > IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? > > Hi Jon, > > Yes, IP and updates are an issue, so the plan is to let IC vendors > build a directory of links and/or "how-to-get-the-model" > instructions, not the models themselves. Users will add reviews and > ratings and IBISCHK scores. > > -- Colin Warwick > Signal Integrity Product Marketing Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA > blog http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list- > bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Powell, Jon N > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:48 AM > To: steve weir; si-list@freelists.org > Cc: bob@teraspeed.com; ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource > IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? > > Isn't there also a legal issue here? > Who owns the IP or the copyright and who is going to be responsible > for violation of said when a copy is kept in a database? > > > > Jon Powell > > EPSD Product SI > > å°‡ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list- > bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of steve weir > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 6:58 PM > To: si-list@freelists.org > Cc: bob@teraspeed.com; ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource > IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? > > Colin, > > Hosting is so cheap as to be a non-issue. Setting up the database > mechanics is not particularly difficult either. > The real cost is in the administration. In my opinion this needs > people > willing to serve as librarians who will act as the gate keepers so > that > the site is not overrun with junk. > > Best Regards, > > > Steve. > > colin_warwick@agilent.com wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Thanks to everyone for the feedback and encouragement :-) >> >> There are several options each with pros and cons >> * Web page with an appointed honorary librarian >> * Wikis e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.wikimatrix.org/ >> * Discussion forums (bulletin boards) e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.forummatrix.org/ >> * Email reflectors like the si-list http://freelists.org >> * Shared document/table like a Google Docs spreadsheet. http://docs.google.com/ >> * Hybrids of the above like Google Wave http://wave.google.com >> which they say is a "next generation" email/collaboration/ >> documentation tool >> >> Here are some issues with each: >> * Ease-of-use versus functionality: email is easy to use, but email >> reflectors and forums have limited searchablity and it's hard to >> aggregate threads of (possibility duplicative) conversations. >> * WYSIWYG versus markup languages: some wikis and forums require >> you learn a mark up language. >> * "One truth" (conclusion) versus "Let a hundred flowers >> blossom" (conversation) (yes, I do understand the irony of Mao >> Zedong's imperative): >> ** Wikis attempt to arrive at some sort of consensus between the >> editors on the readers' behalf (although there's usually a >> discussion page for editors behind the "real" page for readers) >> whereas >> ** Discussion Forums let everyone voice their own opinion and >> each reader has to plow through the threads to draw their own >> conclusion from the (possibly heated) conversation. >> * Reputation: How do you hold a contributor accountable for their >> contribution? How exclude spam in? >> * Privacy: How much info to do I have to submit to sign up? As a >> reader? As a writer? How to prevent harvesting of personal info by >> nefarious agents? >> * History/reversion: How do we track and undo "bad" edits? How to >> delete "bad" postings? >> * Who pays? There are plenty of "free" hosting sites, usually ad- >> funded. Do we want an ad free site by paying to self-hosting fee? >> If so, how do we split the check? >> * Structured versus unstructured: Do you want a rigorous database >> schema (specific column headings/fields for each row/record in >> (possibly interlinked) tables)? Or more free form? If structured, >> how to come to a consensus schema? >> * Who runs the thing? What are the costs and benefits for the admin? >> >> I added a second straw poll to the bottom of: >> >> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-directory/ >> >> ...so you can vote for your favorite... >> >> Best regards, >> >> -- Colin Warwick >> Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list- >> bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Howard Johnson >> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:00 AM >> To: si-list@freelists.org >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: >> Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? >> >> Hey Colin, >> >> I think you are on to a good idea. Individual users spend way too >> much time >> farting around trying to put together good IBIS models. Much of >> that effort >> seems wasted. >> >> I'd like to see the list include some sort of "user voting" feature >> so the >> readers of the list could see if other people found the model >> "useful". >> Some "wiki" type tools allow that kind of feedback and I believe it >> would be >> crucial, because I believe you will never get an official committee >> to vet >> the models -- it has to be done through independent user evaluations. >> >> Good luck, and keep plugging on this idea, it's a good one. >> >> Yes, I went to your link and voted. >> >> Best regards, >> Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc., >> tel +1 509-997-0505, howie03@sigcon.com >> www.sigcon.com -- High-Speed Digital Design seminars, publications >> and films >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list- >> bounce@freelists.org] On >> Behalf Of steve weir >> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 6:09 PM >> To: colin_warwick@agilent.com >> Cc: si-list@freelists.org >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: >> Crowdsource IBIS >> model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? >> >> My view on the usefulness of such a directory all depends on how >> well the >> directory would be maintained / policed and whether the directory >> would >> include information that would indicate the model's likely >> usefulness. >> There are a lot of IBIS ( HSPICE models as well for that matter ), >> that >> aren't particularly useful. Many have not been verified in any >> way. Some >> of them do not even parse. >> >> Anyway, if this is going to be undertaken, I would really like to see >> something similar to the way that the FPGA vendors list IP cores. >> >> Target Model Manufacturer >> Target Model Part Number >> Free or pay model >> Model basis: Raw original model, SPICE derived model, Measurement >> based >> model IBIS version Passed parser or not w/ parser version Model >> verified or >> not Link to model, or model supplier >> >> Steve >> >> >> >> colin_warwick@agilent.com wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Bottom line on top: Any interest in using and/or contributing to >>> an IBIS >>> >> model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Please vote in >> this >> informal straw poll: >> >>> >> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-director >> y/ >> >>> ...and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this thread. >>> >>> Backstory: I posted the message below to the IBIS lists, but was >>> disappointed that the response was fairly mute. So, I'm posting it >>> here in the hope it will resonate with si-listers. (If you are >>> also on >>> the IBIS lists, this is a duplicate. Sorry!) >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> -- Colin Warwick >>> Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: WARWICK,COLIN >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:59 AM >>> To: IBIS-Interconnect; 'ibis-macro@freelists.org' >>> Subject: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model >>> >> directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I get several emails a month from customers asking "Is there an >>> IBIS model >>> >> for XYZ part from ABC IC vendor". I usually point them at: >> >>> http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html >>> http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm >>> >>> If the info is out-of-date (as is often the case), I ask them to >>> do an >>> advanced Google search like: >>> http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c >>> om >>> >>> (replace someicvendordomain.com with the IC vendor's domain, >>> obviously) >>> >>> But I'm wondering if there's a better way than "spray and pray" >>> Googling >>> >> or burdening a single librarian with hundreds of update requests. >> >>> Sooo...How about crowdsourcing? >>> >>> "Crowd-what-ing," you say? Here's a definition from wikipedia: >>> >>> 'Crowdsourcing is a neologistic compound of Crowd and Outsourcing >>> for the >>> >> act of taking tasks traditionally performed by an employee or >> contractor, >> and outsourcing them to a group of people or community, through an >> "open >> call" to a large group of people (a crowd) asking for contributions.' >> >>> (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing ) >>> >>> Specifically, I'm wondering if we should create a table off of the >>> main >>> >> IBIS page on wikipedia: >> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica >>> tion >>> >>> ...(or some other wiki) for IC vendors to update their info >>> themselves. It >>> >> would look something like this prototype I cobbled together: >> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information >>> _Specification/Table_of_IBIS_models >>> >>> Thoughts? Please vote in this informal straw poll: >>> >>> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di >>> rectory/ >>> >>> and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this thread. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> -- Colin Warwick >>> Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > Steve Weir > IPBLOX, LLC > 150 N. Center St. #211 > Reno, NV 89501 > www.ipblox.com > > (775) 299-4236 Business > (866) 675-4630 Toll-free > (707) 780-1951 Fax > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@freelists.org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@freelists.org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@freelists.org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@freelists.org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org > |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: > | > | help > | subscribe ibis > | subscribe ibis-users > | unsubscribe ibis > | unsubscribe ibis-users > | > |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. > | > |IBIS reflector archives exist under: > | > | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org > |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: > | > | help > | subscribe ibis > | subscribe ibis-users > | unsubscribe ibis > | unsubscribe ibis-users > | > |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. > | > |IBIS reflector archives exist under: > | > | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent > | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 13:22:10 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ralf_Br=FCning?= Subject: [IBIS-Users] European IBIS Summit @ SPI 2010 - Second Call for Papers/Participation ======================================================================= = = = European IBIS Summit @ SPI 2010 - First Call for Papers & = = Second Call for Participation = = = ======================================================================= We have been holding successful European IBIS Summit Meetings for more then 10 years. This year we are again holding a meeting along with 14th IEEE Workshop on Signal Propagation and Interconnects (SPI) 2010 on Wednesday, May 12th, 2010. The purpose is to promote communication among users and developers of IBIS models in Europe. The meeting is FREE and open to everyone. Below is some information on the IBIS Summit and some related events. Even despite the current economic situation you are hereby invited to register to attend and also to submit presentation proposals. Ralf Bruening Product Manager High Speed Design ZUKEN EMC Technology Center - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- E U R O P E A N I B I S S U M M I T M E E T I N G S E C O N D C A L L F O R P A R T I C I P A T I O N - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Time/Date: 12:30 - 17:30, Wednesday, May 12th, 2010 Location: van der Valk Hotel, Hildesheim, Germany (in the old city center of Hildesheim) Meeting-Room: "Wollenweber I" (may be subject of change) Van der Valk Hotel Hildesheim Markt 4 31134 Hildesheim Germany phone:+49 (0)5121 300 0 fax: +49 (0)5121 134 298 Content: Presentations and Discussions Purpose: Solicit and Exchange IBIS Model Related Information and Ideas Sponsors: Agilent Technology, Mentor Graphics, Sintecs BV, Sigrity and Zuken If your company would be interested in sponsoring this event, please contact Ralf Bruening under: . SPI Workshop 2010: May 09th-12th, 2010. SPI Location: van der Valk Hotel, Hildesheim, Germany SPI URL: www.spi.uni-hannover.de - -------------------------------------------------------------------- BACKGROUND We have had successful IBIS meetings along the DATe conference for many years. As we got the feedback that Interconnect design, high speed, signal integrity and PCB design aspects are less represented at DATe in the last years this made this conference less attractive for IBIS users, so we decided to move the yearly European IBIS meeting to take place along with the SPI workshop, which is since many years a successful forum for engineers to discuss on signal integrity and modelling topics. This meeting will be conducted as a formal IBIS Summit Meeting. Presentations are expected to be available and archived in an electronic format, and minutes of the meeting will be issued. Any pending formal decisions (votes) will be announced at least two weeks prior to the meeting. Topics and presentations may include (list is open for further contributions): - Submitted Presentations on IBIS Topics (See below) - Information about the most recent IBIS Developments - Less formal Ad Hoc Presentations and Discussions - IBIS and Modelling Questions and Answers The meeting is free and open to everyone. Refreshments & coffee breaks are planned. CALL FOR PARTICIPANTS People involved in IBIS Model development, EDA tool development, and digital circuit design are invited to participate in the European IBIS Summit meeting. If you plan to participate, please register with the information below (deadline, April 30th, 2010): Name: E-mail address: Company: Telephone: Send to: Ralf Bruening (ralf.bruening@zuken.com) Bob Ross (bob@teraspeed.com) CALL FOR PRESENTATIONS Presentations are expected to be technical focused. According to the rules of the IBIS meetings we cannot accept product marketing or EDA tool focused presentations. We are seeking presentations from individuals who have IBIS experiences or issues. Some suggested subjects of interest are: - IBIS Model Development Experiences - Company IBIS Standards and Requirements - Generating & Validating IBIS Models - Future IBIS Developments and Requirements (i.e. IBIS AMI) - Modeling of dedicated technology issues (i.e., connectors, very high speed interfaces) - EMC/EMI and Power Integrity Issues - Related modelling issues (i.e. SPICE, S-Parameter modelling) - Experiences using IBIS in the PCB Design process Format of Presentation: LCD Projections Time: 15-30 Minutes Electronic Archival: We request electronic versions for so they can be archived and also made available to non-attendees. We prefer Power Point or Acrobat formats. Deadline: April 30, 2010. Please send presentations for processing and brief review in advance. Otherwise please plan to bring 30 copies for the meeting. If you plan a presentation, please supply: Title: Presenter: E-mail address: Company: Telephone: Estimated Time: Send this to both: Ralf Bruening (ralf.bruening@zuken.com) Bob Ross (bob@teraspeed.com) AGENDA The agenda includes presentations, discussions, breaks and refreshments. This will be developed as presentation proposals are received. LIST OF NEARBY HOTELS See for travel directions, workshop hotels and other information, other hotels in Hildesheim city area can be found using www.hrs.com (or mail me for guidance) Conference hotel: Van der VAlk Hildesheim URL: http://www.vandervalk.de/en/hotel-hildesheim-hannover.html _____________________________________________ Ralf Bruening Product Manager/Senior Consultant Partner Group High Speed Design/Signal & Power Integrity Zuken EMC Technology Center Vattmannstr.3 33100 Paderborn - Germany Tel: ++49 (0) 5251 150 621 Fax: ++49 (0) 5251 150 700 Cell: ++49 (0) 170 4228512 Email: ralf.bruening@zuken.com Web: http://www.zuken.com Zuken Gesellschaft mit beschraenkter Haftung Sitz der Gesellschaft: Hallbergmoos Register: Amtsgericht Muenchen HBR 108421 Geschäftsführer: Jinya Katsube, Gerhard Lipski _____________________________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 17:46:15 -0400 From: Scott McMorrow Subject: [IBIS-Users] Re: [IBIS] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: CrowdsourceIBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Just because a model follows the IBIS standard does not mean it is not also a companies IP. I'm just saying that you have to be careful. AR Rafiq wrote: > Scott, > > Doesn't that defeat one of the objective of IBIS? > > Regards, > > AR > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 6, 2010, at 1:23 PM, scott@teraspeed.com wrote: > >> for many models users cannot legally share information such as >> ibischk scores. The owner of the website would be legally >> responsible for policing each and every usage agreement. This is why >> independent companies provide this service. >> >> We keep an updated ibis model links page on our website that bob Ross >> manages >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: >> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:04:54 >> To: ; ; >> >> Cc: ; ; >> Subject: [IBIS] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: >> Crowdsource >> IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? >> >> Hi Jon, >> >> Yes, IP and updates are an issue, so the plan is to let IC vendors >> build a directory of links and/or "how-to-get-the-model" >> instructions, not the models themselves. Users will add reviews and >> ratings and IBISCHK scores. >> >> -- Colin Warwick >> Signal Integrity Product Marketing Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA >> blog http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org >> [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Powell, Jon N >> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:48 AM >> To: steve weir; si-list@freelists.org >> Cc: bob@teraspeed.com; ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource >> IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? >> >> Isn't there also a legal issue here? >> Who owns the IP or the copyright and who is going to be responsible >> for violation of said when a copy is kept in a database? >> >> >> >> Jon Powell >> >> EPSD Product SI >> >> å°‡ >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org >> [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of steve weir >> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 6:58 PM >> To: si-list@freelists.org >> Cc: bob@teraspeed.com; ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource >> IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? >> >> Colin, >> >> Hosting is so cheap as to be a non-issue. Setting up the database >> mechanics is not particularly difficult either. >> The real cost is in the administration. In my opinion this needs people >> willing to serve as librarians who will act as the gate keepers so that >> the site is not overrun with junk. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> >> Steve. >> >> colin_warwick@agilent.com wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Thanks to everyone for the feedback and encouragement :-) >>> >>> There are several options each with pros and cons >>> * Web page with an appointed honorary librarian >>> * Wikis e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.wikimatrix.org/ >>> * Discussion forums (bulletin boards) e.g. hosted and self-hosted >>> http://www.forummatrix.org/ >>> * Email reflectors like the si-list http://freelists.org >>> * Shared document/table like a Google Docs spreadsheet. >>> http://docs.google.com/ >>> * Hybrids of the above like Google Wave http://wave.google.com which >>> they say is a "next generation" email/collaboration/documentation tool >>> >>> Here are some issues with each: >>> * Ease-of-use versus functionality: email is easy to use, but email >>> reflectors and forums have limited searchablity and it's hard to >>> aggregate threads of (possibility duplicative) conversations. >>> * WYSIWYG versus markup languages: some wikis and forums require you >>> learn a mark up language. >>> * "One truth" (conclusion) versus "Let a hundred flowers blossom" >>> (conversation) (yes, I do understand the irony of Mao Zedong's >>> imperative): >>> ** Wikis attempt to arrive at some sort of consensus between the >>> editors on the readers' behalf (although there's usually a >>> discussion page for editors behind the "real" page for readers) >>> whereas >>> ** Discussion Forums let everyone voice their own opinion and each >>> reader has to plow through the threads to draw their own conclusion >>> from the (possibly heated) conversation. >>> * Reputation: How do you hold a contributor accountable for their >>> contribution? How exclude spam in? >>> * Privacy: How much info to do I have to submit to sign up? As a >>> reader? As a writer? How to prevent harvesting of personal info by >>> nefarious agents? >>> * History/reversion: How do we track and undo "bad" edits? How to >>> delete "bad" postings? >>> * Who pays? There are plenty of "free" hosting sites, usually >>> ad-funded. Do we want an ad free site by paying to self-hosting fee? >>> If so, how do we split the check? >>> * Structured versus unstructured: Do you want a rigorous database >>> schema (specific column headings/fields for each row/record in >>> (possibly interlinked) tables)? Or more free form? If structured, >>> how to come to a consensus schema? >>> * Who runs the thing? What are the costs and benefits for the admin? >>> >>> I added a second straw poll to the bottom of: >>> >>> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-directory/ >>> >>> >>> ...so you can vote for your favorite... >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> -- Colin Warwick >>> Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org >>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Howard Johnson >>> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:00 AM >>> To: si-list@freelists.org >>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource >>> IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? >>> >>> Hey Colin, >>> >>> I think you are on to a good idea. Individual users spend way too >>> much time >>> farting around trying to put together good IBIS models. Much of that >>> effort >>> seems wasted. >>> >>> I'd like to see the list include some sort of "user voting" feature >>> so the >>> readers of the list could see if other people found the model "useful". >>> Some "wiki" type tools allow that kind of feedback and I believe it >>> would be >>> crucial, because I believe you will never get an official committee >>> to vet >>> the models -- it has to be done through independent user evaluations. >>> >>> Good luck, and keep plugging on this idea, it's a good one. >>> >>> Yes, I went to your link and voted. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc., >>> tel +1 509-997-0505, howie03@sigcon.com >>> www.sigcon.com -- High-Speed Digital Design seminars, publications >>> and films >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org >>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On >>> Behalf Of steve weir >>> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 6:09 PM >>> To: colin_warwick@agilent.com >>> Cc: si-list@freelists.org >>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource >>> IBIS >>> model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? >>> >>> My view on the usefulness of such a directory all depends on how >>> well the >>> directory would be maintained / policed and whether the directory would >>> include information that would indicate the model's likely usefulness. >>> There are a lot of IBIS ( HSPICE models as well for that matter ), that >>> aren't particularly useful. Many have not been verified in any >>> way. Some >>> of them do not even parse. >>> >>> Anyway, if this is going to be undertaken, I would really like to see >>> something similar to the way that the FPGA vendors list IP cores. >>> >>> Target Model Manufacturer >>> Target Model Part Number >>> Free or pay model >>> Model basis: Raw original model, SPICE derived model, Measurement >>> based >>> model IBIS version Passed parser or not w/ parser version Model >>> verified or >>> not Link to model, or model supplier >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> >>> >>> colin_warwick@agilent.com wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Bottom line on top: Any interest in using and/or contributing to an >>>> IBIS >>>> >>> model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Please vote in this >>> informal straw poll: >>> >>>> >>> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-director >>> >>> y/ >>> >>>> ...and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this thread. >>>> >>>> Backstory: I posted the message below to the IBIS lists, but was >>>> disappointed that the response was fairly mute. So, I'm posting it >>>> here in the hope it will resonate with si-listers. (If you are also on >>>> the IBIS lists, this is a duplicate. Sorry!) >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> -- Colin Warwick >>>> Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: WARWICK,COLIN >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:59 AM >>>> To: IBIS-Interconnect; 'ibis-macro@freelists.org' >>>> Subject: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model >>>> >>> directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I get several emails a month from customers asking "Is there an >>>> IBIS model >>>> >>> for XYZ part from ABC IC vendor". I usually point them at: >>> >>>> http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html >>>> http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm >>>> >>>> If the info is out-of-date (as is often the case), I ask them to do an >>>> advanced Google search like: >>>> http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> (replace someicvendordomain.com with the IC vendor's domain, >>>> obviously) >>>> >>>> But I'm wondering if there's a better way than "spray and pray" >>>> Googling >>>> >>> or burdening a single librarian with hundreds of update requests. >>> >>>> Sooo...How about crowdsourcing? >>>> >>>> "Crowd-what-ing," you say? Here's a definition from wikipedia: >>>> >>>> 'Crowdsourcing is a neologistic compound of Crowd and Outsourcing >>>> for the >>>> >>> act of taking tasks traditionally performed by an employee or >>> contractor, >>> and outsourcing them to a group of people or community, through an >>> "open >>> call" to a large group of people (a crowd) asking for contributions.' >>> >>>> (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing ) >>>> >>>> Specifically, I'm wondering if we should create a table off of the >>>> main >>>> >>> IBIS page on wikipedia: >>> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica >>>> tion >>>> >>>> ...(or some other wiki) for IC vendors to update their info >>>> themselves. It >>>> >>> would look something like this prototype I cobbled together: >>> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information >>>> _Specification/Table_of_IBIS_models >>>> >>>> Thoughts? Please vote in this informal straw poll: >>>> >>>> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di >>>> rectory/ >>>> >>>> and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this thread. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> -- Colin Warwick >>>> Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Steve Weir >> IPBLOX, LLC >> 150 N. Center St. #211 >> Reno, NV 89501 >> www.ipblox.com >> >> (775) 299-4236 Business >> (866) 675-4630 Toll-free >> (707) 780-1951 Fax >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> To unsubscribe from si-list: >> si-list-request@freelists.org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >> >> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >> For help: >> si-list-request@freelists.org with 'help' in the Subject field >> >> >> List technical documents are available at: >> http://www.si-list.net >> >> List archives are viewable at: >> http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> >> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> To unsubscribe from si-list: >> si-list-request@freelists.org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >> >> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >> For help: >> si-list-request@freelists.org with 'help' in the Subject field >> >> >> List technical documents are available at: >> http://www.si-list.net >> >> List archives are viewable at: >> http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> >> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> >> >> >> -- >> This message has been scanned for viruses and >> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is >> believed to be clean. >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org >> |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: >> | >> | help >> | subscribe ibis >> | subscribe ibis-users >> | unsubscribe ibis >> | unsubscribe ibis-users >> | >> |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. >> | >> |IBIS reflector archives exist under: >> | >> | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent >> | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent >> | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 >> >> >> -- >> This message has been scanned for viruses and >> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is >> believed to be clean. >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org >> |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: >> | >> | help >> | subscribe ibis >> | subscribe ibis-users >> | unsubscribe ibis >> | unsubscribe ibis-users >> | >> |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. >> | >> |IBIS reflector archives exist under: >> | >> | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent >> | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent >> | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 > > - -- Scott McMorrow Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 (401) 284-1827 Business (401) 284-1840 Fax http://www.teraspeed.com Teraspeed® is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 16:42:18 +0100 From: "Nikonchuk Sergey-R6294C" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? I am quite new IBIS models developer, but I am fully support idea of Reference IBIS models for standard interfaces. It would be really helpful to align our product/technology specific models to the Standard Requirements, expectations, specifications. And verify them accordingly. Regards Sergey Nikonchuk Characterization and View Generation TSO / DT / DC / IO Libraries www.freescale.com Phone: +7 (495) 589 1839 Mobile: +7 (916) 993 3467 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Mike LaBonte (milabont) Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 7:33 PM To: Aubrey Sparkman; si-list@freelists.org; ibis-users@eda.org Cc: steve weir; Lynne D. Green; colin_warwick@agilent.com Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? The IBIS Quality spec goes beyond IBISCHK. There was some discussion at one point about having the IBIS Models page somehow indicate IBIS Quality adoption, but no agreement on a fair way to do it resulted. I like the idea of spec-based IBIS models, even if they are incomplete templates. I find that parts made to JEDEC specs, for example, sometimes omit data like [Receiver Thresholds] from their IBIS files. Some data are absent even from the datasheets, as though a reference to the JEDEC spec should suffice. There is an interesting debate about the value of merely passing on JEDEC limits versus the actual performance range of a part population. And there may be no great way to produce generic waveforms for a spec-standard IBIS model. If something reasonable can be produced, Aubrey has an interesting point that such an IBIS model might be used to verify that a design should work with any spec-compliant part, without simulating the separate IBIS files from each vendor. In any event I think if organizations like JEDEC produced IBIS files for each spec they would be doing everyone a favor. Some elements could be lifted from them, and they could provide a reference for limit checking vendor-specific IBIS models. Maybe anyone could contribute these spec-standard models, but who would verify that they accurate reflect the specs? Mike - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Aubrey Sparkman Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 9:18 PM To: si-list@freelists.org; ibis-users@eda.org Cc: 'steve weir'; 'Lynne D. Green'; colin_warwick@agilent.com Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? I like the idea of crowdsource, but I DON'T agree that parser clean is sufficient. I've seen too many models that pass parser but have curves that are not realistic. While many of the IBIS models I've used in the past have been considered IP, there is a class of models that would be very valuable and not subject to IP. Back in the day, I made a model for a generic PCI-X buffer model that reflected the PCI-X buffer specification. Using that model was, in most cases, preferable to using supplier specific buffer models because it enabled me to claim that any suppliers' product that met the PCI-X specification would work in my system. Does anyone volunteer to create spec based models for the current interfaces such as PCIe-GenX, USB-x, SATA, SAS, etc? Aubrey Sparkman 512-461-6165 asparky@sparkright-solutions.com - -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 6:51 PM To: si-list@freelists.org Cc: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? The IBIS organization is a natural place to maintain a catalog and records of any checks done by vendors: silicon and/or EDA. The market value to the EDA vendors would be the ability to state the breadth of models that their tools support which might have enough market value to justify the ongoing cost. I would expect that the effort to create automated or semiautomated checking for compatibility would be well within the capability of each EDA vendor and make the amortized cost quite low. I think for any scheme to stand a chance of market acceptance, it cannot impose any substantial additional cost in dollars and/or time on silicon vendors. Best Regards, Steve. Lynne D. Green wrote: > > Steve and Colin, > > The "neutral" third party could be the IBIS Model Review Committee > (who are representatives from EDA vendors). We could perhaps report > models that pass the parser with no errors and no warnings. Someone > could encourage vendors to post their parser output file, with > comments about why particular warnings/errors were accepted, but that would be the vendor's job. > > Nothing "bad" would be reported about a particular IBIS file. And > only reporting "parser clean" might help address Jon's (very true) > point about IP protection. (And more vendors might take advantage of > our "neutral" review service to get on this list.) > > Another useful thing on the "wiki" might be educational material: > articles and educational materials people contribute, links to IBIS > parser, specs, cookbook, etc. > > Cheers, > Lynne > > Lynne Green > Chair > IBIS Model Review Committee > > > steve weir wrote: Colin, I don't see an open community Wiki-like > structure ever getting vendor support. There is just too much exposure > to unchecked, and potentially unfounded or even malicious criticism. > We do not live in suchan egalitarian society that vendors locked in > tight competition might nottry and get an edge in new product adoption > by spreading FUD over their competitor's offerings. In a world where > NDA's are required just to obtain data sheets I find it nearly > impossible to believe vendors would expose themselves in such a public > and difficult to control way. I think that if anything is going to come of this it would have to be either of the form of: > a. Voluntary vendor disclosure of standards compliance or b. Vendor > participation in compliance testing by an accepted neutral third party > such as a standards committee (as neutral as those can be). Best > regards, Steve colin_warwick@agilent.com[1] wrote: Hi Jon, Yes, IP and > updates are an issue,so the plan is to let IC vendors build a > directory of links and/or "how-to-get-the-model" instructions, not the > models themselves. Users will add reviews and ratings and IBISCHK > scores. -- Colin Warwick Signal IntegrityProduct Marketing Manager, > Agilent EEsof EDA blog http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com[2] -----Original Message----- From: > si-list-bounce@freelists.org[3] > [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org[4]] On Behalf Of Powell, Jon N > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:48 AM To: steve weir; > si-list@freelists.org[5] Cc: bob@teraspeed.com[6]; ibis@eda.org[7]; > ibis-users@eda.org[8] Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for > comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as > wikipedia? Isn't there also a legal issue here? Who owns the IP or the > copyright and who is going to be responsible for violation of said > when a copy is kept in a database? Jon Powell EPSD Product SI $BUr(J > -----OriginalMessage----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org[9] > [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org[10]] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: > Monday, April 05, 2010 6:58 PM To: si-list@freelists.org[11] Cc: > bob@teraspeed.com[12]; ibis@eda.org[13]; ibis-users@eda.org[14] Subject: > [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model > directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Colin, Hosting is so > cheap as to be a non-issue. Setting up the database mechanics is not > particularly difficult either. The real cost is in the administration. > In my opinion this needs people willing to serve as librarians who > will act as the gate keepers so that the site is not overrun with junk. Best Regards, Steve. > colin_warwick@agilent.com[15] wrote: Hi, Thanks to everyone for the > feedback and encouragement :-) There are several options each with > pros and cons * Webpage with an appointed honorary librarian * Wikis > e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.wikimatrix.org/[16] * > Discussion forums (bulletin > boards) e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.forummatrix.org/[17] * > Email reflectors like the si-list http://freelists.org[18] * Shared > document/table like a Google Docs spreadsheet. > http://docs.google.com/[19] * Hybrids of the above like Google Wave > http://wave.google.com[20] which they say is a "next generation" > email/collaboration/documentation tool Here are some issues with > each: * Ease-of-use versus functionality: email is easy to use, but > email reflectors and forums have limited searchablity and it's hard to > aggregate threads of (possibility duplicative) conversations. * > WYSIWYG versus markup > languages: some wikis and forums require you learn a mark up language. > * "Onetruth" (conclusion) versus "Let a hundred flowers blossom" > (conversation)(yes, I do understand the irony of Mao Zedong's imperative): > **Wikis attempt to arrive at some sort of consensus between the > editors on the readers' behalf (although there's usually a discussion > page for editors behind the "real" page for readers) whereas ** > Discussion Forums let everyonevoice their own opinion and each reader > has to plow through the threads to draw their own conclusion from the > (possibly heated) > conversation.* Reputation: How do you hold a contributor accountable > for their contribution? How exclude spam in? * Privacy: How much info > to do I have to submit to sign up? As a reader? As a writer? How to > prevent harvesting of personal info by nefarious agents? * > History/reversion: How do we track and undo "bad" edits? How to delete "bad" postings? * Who pays? > There are plenty of "free" hosting sites, usually ad-funded. Do we > want an adfree site by paying to self-hosting fee? If so, how do we split the check? > * Structured versus unstructured: Do you want a rigorous database > schema (specific column headings/fields for each row/record in > (possibly > interlinked) tables)? Or more free form? If structured, how to come to > a consensus schema? * Who runs the thing? What are the costs and > benefits for the admin? I added a second straw poll to the bottom of: > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models > -directory/[21] ...so you can vote for your favorite... Best regards, > -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA > -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org[22] > [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org[23]] On Behalf Of Howard Johnson Sent: > Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:00 AM To: si-list@freelists.org[24] Subject: > [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model > directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Hey Colin, I think you > are on to a good idea. Individual users spend way too much time > farting around trying to put together good IBIS models. Much of that effort seems wasted. > I'd like to see the list include some sort of "user voting" feature so > the readers of the list could see if other people found the model > "useful". Some "wiki" type tools allow that kind of feedback and I > believe it would be crucial, because I believe you will never get an > official committee to vet the models -- it has to be done through > independent user evaluations. Good luck, and keep plugging on this > idea, it's a good one. Yes, I went to your link and voted. Best > regards, Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc., > tel+1 509-997-0505, howie03@sigcon.com[25] www.sigcon.com[26] -- > tel+High-Speed > Digital Design seminars, publications and films -----Original > Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org[27] > [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org[28]] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: > Friday, April 02, 2010 6:09 PM To: colin_warwick@agilent.com[29] Cc: > si-list@freelists.org[30] Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call > for > comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as > wikipedia? My view on the usefulness of such a directory all depends > on how well the directory would be maintained / policed and whether > the directory would include information that would indicate the model's likely usefulness. > There are a lot of IBIS ( HSPICE models as well for that matter ), > that aren't particularly useful. Many have not been verified in any > way. Some of them do not even parse. Anyway, if this is going to be > undertaken, I would really like to see something similar to the way > that the FPGA vendors list IPcores. Target Model Manufacturer Target > Model Part Number Free or pay modelModel basis: Raw original model, > SPICE derived model, Measurement based model IBIS version Passed > parser or not w/ parser version Model verified or not Link to model, > or model supplier Steve colin_warwick@agilent.com[31] > wrote: Hi, Bottom line on top: Any interest in using and/or > contributing to an IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as > wikipedia? Please vote in this informal straw poll: > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models > -director[32y/ ...and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this > thread. Backstory: I posted the message below to the IBIS lists, but > was disappointed that the response was fairly mute. So, I'm posting it > here in the hope it will resonate with si-listers. (If you are also on > the IBIS lists, this is a duplicate. Sorry!) Best regards, -- Colin > Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA > -----Original Message----- From:WARWICK,COLIN Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:59 AM To: > IBIS-Interconnect; 'ibis-macro@freelists.org[33]' Subject: Straw poll > and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a > wiki such as wikipedia? Hi, I get several emails a month from > customers asking "Is there an IBIS model for XYZ part from ABC IC vendor". I usually point them at: > http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html[34] > http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm[35] If the info is > out-of-date (as is often the case), I ask them to do an advanced > Google search like: > http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c > [36] om(replace someicvendordomain.com with the IC vendor's domain, > obviously) ButI'm wondering if there's a better way than "spray and > pray" Googling or burdening a single librarian with hundreds of update > requests. Sooo...How about crowdsourcing? "Crowd-what-ing," you say? > Here's a definition from > wikipedia: 'Crowdsourcing is a neologistic compound of Crowd and > Outsourcing for the act of taking tasks traditionally performed by an > employee or contractor, and outsourcing them to a group of people or > community, through an "open call" to a large group of people (a crowd) > asking for contributions.' (from > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing[37] ) Specifically, I'm > wondering if we should create a table off of the main IBIS page on wikipedia: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica > [38] tion ...(or some other wiki) for IC vendors to update their info > themselves. > It would look something like this prototype I cobbled together: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information > [39] _Specification/Table_of_IBIS_models Thoughts? Please vote in this > informal straw poll: > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di > [40] rectory/ and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this > thread. Best regards, -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product > Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA > > > --- Links --- > 1 mailto:colin_warwick@agilent.com > 2 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com > 3 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 4 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 5 mailto:si-list@freelists.org > 6 mailto:bob@teraspeed.com > 7 mailto:ibis@eda.org > 8 mailto:ibis-users@eda.org > 9 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 10 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 11 mailto:si-list@freelists.org > 12 mailto:bob@teraspeed.com > 13 mailto:ibis@eda.org > 14 mailto:ibis-users@eda.org > 15 mailto:colin_warwick@agilent.com > 16 http://www.wikimatrix.org/ > 17 http://www.forummatrix.org/ > 18 http://freelists.org > 19 http://docs.google.com/ > 20 http://wave.google.com > 21 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-directory/ > 22 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 23 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 24 mailto:si-list@freelists.org > 25 mailto:howie03@sigcon.com > 26 http://www.sigcon.com > 27 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 28 mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org > 29 mailto:colin_warwick@agilent.com > 30 mailto:si-list@freelists.org > 31 mailto:colin_warwick@agilent.com > 32 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-director > 33 mailto:ibis-macro@freelists.org > 34 http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html > 35 http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm > 36 http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c > 37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing > 38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica > 39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information > 40 > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@freelists.org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@freelists.org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > - -- Steve Weir IPBLOX, LLC 150 N. Center St. #211 Reno, NV 89501 www.ipblox.com (775) 299-4236 Business (866) 675-4630 Toll-free (707) 780-1951 Fax - ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 15:43:17 -0700 From: "Tom Dagostino" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Re: [IBIS] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: CrowdsourceIBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as Wikipedia? This on the surface looks like a good idea but in reality can get very complicated. It is not a simple does the model pass IBIS Check or not. For example, my criteria when I release a model is no unexplained warning and no errors from the IBIS check. But there are times when a warning is appropriate for the model. For example a 50 Ohm pulldown termination will produce more current in the active region of a receiver than the IBIS check allows if my memory serves me correctly. This will generate a warning in IBIS. But it is a perfectly appropriate warning that should be documented in the model. If somebody does a blanket check of all models on Manufacture X web page and doesn't understand or analyze the results then bogus information is posted on those models. Some companies have very strict rules about what gets posted on web pages. For example I've run across mandates where all file names, including IBIS files, have to be in upper case -- IBISMODEL.IBS, a clear violation of the standard, may generate an error but very easy to fix and many SI simulators would not care. I've also seen companies that required all models to be posted as HTML files. They don't parse very well. But it is simple to copy the data and put it into a text format and have a valid model. And then there is misapplications of the models that may cause users to complain about a model. Two classics I've seen many times are trying to use an ECL model with a differential termination or using an open drain model with a load to ground. I'm not excusing some of the outright bad models that are out there. I've seen some very interesting interpretation of the specification, input models with VT curves, IV tables with single points in them, clamp tables with 10e100+ Amperes, ECL models that don't use the ECL designator, etc. They need to be found and fixed and I've done more than my share of that. So, given the above and to be fair to the company's models are being reviewed, who is going to review the reviewers? It would be nice if the community would look at every model review and validate that review but who has the time to do that? Tom Dagostino Teraspeed(R) Labs 13610 SW Harness Lane Beaverton, OR 97008 503-430-1065 503-430-1285 FAX tom@teraspeed.com www.teraspeed.com Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 401-284-1827 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of scott@teraspeed.com Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 1:23 PM To: colin_warwick@agilent.com; owner-ibis@eda.org; jon.n.powell@intel.com; weirsi@ipblox.com; si-list@freelists.org Cc: Bob Ross; ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users] Re: [IBIS] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: CrowdsourceIBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? for many models users cannot legally share information such as ibischk scores. The owner of the website would be legally responsible for policing each and every usage agreement. This is why independent companies provide this service. We keep an updated ibis model links page on our website that bob Ross manages Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry - -----Original Message----- From: Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:04:54 To: ; ; Cc: ; ; Subject: [IBIS] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Hi Jon, Yes, IP and updates are an issue, so the plan is to let IC vendors build a directory of links and/or "how-to-get-the-model" instructions, not the models themselves. Users will add reviews and ratings and IBISCHK scores. - -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Marketing Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA blog http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com - -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Powell, Jon N Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:48 AM To: steve weir; si-list@freelists.org Cc: bob@teraspeed.com; ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Isn't there also a legal issue here? Who owns the IP or the copyright and who is going to be responsible for violation of said when a copy is kept in a database? Jon Powell EPSD Product SI ? - -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 6:58 PM To: si-list@freelists.org Cc: bob@teraspeed.com; ibis@eda.org; ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Colin, Hosting is so cheap as to be a non-issue. Setting up the database mechanics is not particularly difficult either. The real cost is in the administration. In my opinion this needs people willing to serve as librarians who will act as the gate keepers so that the site is not overrun with junk. Best Regards, Steve. colin_warwick@agilent.com wrote: > Hi, > > Thanks to everyone for the feedback and encouragement :-) > > There are several options each with pros and cons > * Web page with an appointed honorary librarian > * Wikis e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.wikimatrix.org/ > * Discussion forums (bulletin boards) e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.forummatrix.org/ > * Email reflectors like the si-list http://freelists.org > * Shared document/table like a Google Docs spreadsheet. http://docs.google.com/ > * Hybrids of the above like Google Wave http://wave.google.com which they say is a "next generation" email/collaboration/documentation tool > > Here are some issues with each: > * Ease-of-use versus functionality: email is easy to use, but email reflectors and forums have limited searchablity and it's hard to aggregate threads of (possibility duplicative) conversations. > * WYSIWYG versus markup languages: some wikis and forums require you learn a mark up language. > * "One truth" (conclusion) versus "Let a hundred flowers blossom" (conversation) (yes, I do understand the irony of Mao Zedong's imperative): > ** Wikis attempt to arrive at some sort of consensus between the editors on the readers' behalf (although there's usually a discussion page for editors behind the "real" page for readers) > whereas > ** Discussion Forums let everyone voice their own opinion and each reader has to plow through the threads to draw their own conclusion from the (possibly heated) conversation. > * Reputation: How do you hold a contributor accountable for their contribution? How exclude spam in? > * Privacy: How much info to do I have to submit to sign up? As a reader? As a writer? How to prevent harvesting of personal info by nefarious agents? > * History/reversion: How do we track and undo "bad" edits? How to delete "bad" postings? > * Who pays? There are plenty of "free" hosting sites, usually ad-funded. Do we want an ad free site by paying to self-hosting fee? If so, how do we split the check? > * Structured versus unstructured: Do you want a rigorous database schema (specific column headings/fields for each row/record in (possibly interlinked) tables)? Or more free form? If structured, how to come to a consensus schema? > * Who runs the thing? What are the costs and benefits for the admin? > > I added a second straw poll to the bottom of: > > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-directory/ > > ...so you can vote for your favorite... > > Best regards, > > -- Colin Warwick > Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA > > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Howard Johnson > Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:00 AM > To: si-list@freelists.org > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? > > Hey Colin, > > I think you are on to a good idea. Individual users spend way too much time > farting around trying to put together good IBIS models. Much of that effort > seems wasted. > > I'd like to see the list include some sort of "user voting" feature so the > readers of the list could see if other people found the model "useful". > Some "wiki" type tools allow that kind of feedback and I believe it would be > crucial, because I believe you will never get an official committee to vet > the models -- it has to be done through independent user evaluations. > > Good luck, and keep plugging on this idea, it's a good one. > > Yes, I went to your link and voted. > > Best regards, > Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc., > tel +1 509-997-0505, howie03@sigcon.com > www.sigcon.com -- High-Speed Digital Design seminars, publications and films > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On > Behalf Of steve weir > Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 6:09 PM > To: colin_warwick@agilent.com > Cc: si-list@freelists.org > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS > model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? > > My view on the usefulness of such a directory all depends on how well the > directory would be maintained / policed and whether the directory would > include information that would indicate the model's likely usefulness. > There are a lot of IBIS ( HSPICE models as well for that matter ), that > aren't particularly useful. Many have not been verified in any way. Some > of them do not even parse. > > Anyway, if this is going to be undertaken, I would really like to see > something similar to the way that the FPGA vendors list IP cores. > > Target Model Manufacturer > Target Model Part Number > Free or pay model > Model basis: Raw original model, SPICE derived model, Measurement based > model IBIS version Passed parser or not w/ parser version Model verified or > not Link to model, or model supplier > > Steve > > > > colin_warwick@agilent.com wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Bottom line on top: Any interest in using and/or contributing to an IBIS >> > model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Please vote in this > informal straw poll: > >> > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-director > y/ > >> ...and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this thread. >> >> Backstory: I posted the message below to the IBIS lists, but was >> disappointed that the response was fairly mute. So, I'm posting it >> here in the hope it will resonate with si-listers. (If you are also on >> the IBIS lists, this is a duplicate. Sorry!) >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> -- Colin Warwick >> Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: WARWICK,COLIN >> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:59 AM >> To: IBIS-Interconnect; 'ibis-macro@freelists.org' >> Subject: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model >> > directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? > >> Hi, >> >> I get several emails a month from customers asking "Is there an IBIS model >> > for XYZ part from ABC IC vendor". I usually point them at: > >> http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html >> http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm >> >> If the info is out-of-date (as is often the case), I ask them to do an >> advanced Google search like: >> http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c >> om >> >> (replace someicvendordomain.com with the IC vendor's domain, >> obviously) >> >> But I'm wondering if there's a better way than "spray and pray" Googling >> > or burdening a single librarian with hundreds of update requests. > >> Sooo...How about crowdsourcing? >> >> "Crowd-what-ing," you say? Here's a definition from wikipedia: >> >> 'Crowdsourcing is a neologistic compound of Crowd and Outsourcing for the >> > act of taking tasks traditionally performed by an employee or contractor, > and outsourcing them to a group of people or community, through an "open > call" to a large group of people (a crowd) asking for contributions.' > >> (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing ) >> >> Specifically, I'm wondering if we should create a table off of the main >> > IBIS page on wikipedia: > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica >> tion >> >> ...(or some other wiki) for IC vendors to update their info themselves. It >> > would look something like this prototype I cobbled together: > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information >> _Specification/Table_of_IBIS_models >> >> Thoughts? Please vote in this informal straw poll: >> >> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di >> rectory/ >> >> and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this thread. >> >> Best regards, >> >> -- Colin Warwick >> Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA >> > > > - -- Steve Weir IPBLOX, LLC 150 N. Center St. #211 Reno, NV 89501 www.ipblox.com (775) 299-4236 Business (866) 675-4630 Toll-free (707) 780-1951 Fax - ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu - ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@freelists.org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 10:18:43 -0600 From: Subject: [IBIS-Users] Call for contributions for experimental site www.ibis-user.org [Was: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?] Hi, As an experiment, I created a forum/wiki to act as an information exchange for IBIS model users, and seeded it with a couple of sample discussions. http://www.ibis-user.org/ Please read the faq first: http://www.ibis-user.org/faq I'll run it for a month or two then circle back here to debate if it's useful to the community or not. Thanks! - -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Marketing Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA Blog: http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com - -----Original Message----- From: WARWICK,COLIN (A-Americas,ex1) Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:26 PM To: 'Howard Johnson'; si-list@freelists.org; 'lgreen22@mindspring.com'; 'bob@teraspeed.com'; 'weirsi@ipblox.com'; 'ibis@eda.org'; 'ibis-users@eda.org' Subject: Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Hi, Thanks to everyone for the feedback and encouragement :-) There are several options each with pros and cons * Web page with an appointed honorary librarian * Wikis e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.wikimatrix.org/ * Discussion forums (bulletin boards) e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.forummatrix.org/ * Email reflectors like the si-list http://freelists.org * Shared document/table like a Google Docs spreadsheet. http://docs.google.com/ * Hybrids of the above like Google Wave http://wave.google.com which they say is a "next generation" email/collaboration/documentation tool Here are some issues with each: * Ease-of-use versus functionality: email is easy to use, but email reflectors and forums have limited searchablity and it's hard to aggregate threads of (possibility duplicative) conversations. * WYSIWYG versus markup languages: some wikis and forums require you learn a mark up language. * "One truth" (conclusion) versus "Let a hundred flowers blossom" (conversation) (yes, I do understand the irony of Mao Zedong's imperative): ** Wikis attempt to arrive at some sort of consensus between the editors on the readers' behalf (although there's usually a discussion page for editors behind the "real" page for readers) whereas ** Discussion Forums let everyone voice their own opinion and each reader has to plow through the threads to draw their own conclusion from the (possibly heated) conversation. * Reputation: How do you hold a contributor accountable for their contribution? How exclude spam in? * Privacy: How much info to do I have to submit to sign up? As a reader? As a writer? How to prevent harvesting of personal info by nefarious agents? * History/reversion: How do we track and undo "bad" edits? How to delete "bad" postings? * Who pays? There are plenty of "free" hosting sites, usually ad-funded. Do we want an ad free site by paying to self-hosting fee? If so, how do we split the check? * Structured versus unstructured: Do you want a rigorous database schema (specific column headings/fields for each row/record in (possibly interlinked) tables)? Or more free form? If structured, how to come to a consensus schema? * Who runs the thing? What are the costs and benefits for the admin? I added a second straw poll to the bottom of: http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-directory/ ...so you can vote for your favorite... Best regards, - -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA - -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Howard Johnson Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:00 AM To: si-list@freelists.org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Hey Colin, I think you are on to a good idea. Individual users spend way too much time farting around trying to put together good IBIS models. Much of that effort seems wasted. I'd like to see the list include some sort of "user voting" feature so the readers of the list could see if other people found the model "useful". Some "wiki" type tools allow that kind of feedback and I believe it would be crucial, because I believe you will never get an official committee to vet the models -- it has to be done through independent user evaluations. Good luck, and keep plugging on this idea, it's a good one. Yes, I went to your link and voted. Best regards, Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc., tel +1 509-997-0505, howie03@sigcon.com www.sigcon.com -- High-Speed Digital Design seminars, publications and films - -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@freelists.org [mailto:si-list-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 6:09 PM To: colin_warwick@agilent.com Cc: si-list@freelists.org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? My view on the usefulness of such a directory all depends on how well the directory would be maintained / policed and whether the directory would include information that would indicate the model's likely usefulness. There are a lot of IBIS ( HSPICE models as well for that matter ), that aren't particularly useful. Many have not been verified in any way. Some of them do not even parse. Anyway, if this is going to be undertaken, I would really like to see something similar to the way that the FPGA vendors list IP cores. Target Model Manufacturer Target Model Part Number Free or pay model Model basis: Raw original model, SPICE derived model, Measurement based model IBIS version Passed parser or not w/ parser version Model verified or not Link to model, or model supplier Steve colin_warwick@agilent.com wrote: > Hi, > > Bottom line on top: Any interest in using and/or contributing to an IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Please vote in this informal straw poll: > > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-director y/ > > ...and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this thread. > > Backstory: I posted the message below to the IBIS lists, but was > disappointed that the response was fairly mute. So, I'm posting it > here in the hope it will resonate with si-listers. (If you are also on > the IBIS lists, this is a duplicate. Sorry!) > > > Best regards, > > -- Colin Warwick > Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA > > -----Original Message----- > From: WARWICK,COLIN > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:59 AM > To: IBIS-Interconnect; 'ibis-macro@freelists.org' > Subject: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? > > Hi, > > I get several emails a month from customers asking "Is there an IBIS model for XYZ part from ABC IC vendor". I usually point them at: > http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html > http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm > > If the info is out-of-date (as is often the case), I ask them to do an > advanced Google search like: > http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c > om > > (replace someicvendordomain.com with the IC vendor's domain, > obviously) > > But I'm wondering if there's a better way than "spray and pray" Googling or burdening a single librarian with hundreds of update requests. > > Sooo...How about crowdsourcing? > > "Crowd-what-ing," you say? Here's a definition from wikipedia: > > 'Crowdsourcing is a neologistic compound of Crowd and Outsourcing for the act of taking tasks traditionally performed by an employee or contractor, and outsourcing them to a group of people or community, through an "open call" to a large group of people (a crowd) asking for contributions.' > (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing ) > > Specifically, I'm wondering if we should create a table off of the main IBIS page on wikipedia: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica > tion > > ...(or some other wiki) for IC vendors to update their info themselves. It would look something like this prototype I cobbled together: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information > _Specification/Table_of_IBIS_models > > Thoughts? Please vote in this informal straw poll: > > http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di > rectory/ > > and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this thread. > > Best regards, > > -- Colin Warwick > Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 12:28:57 -0400 From: "Lance Wang" Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS Summit First Call of Papers and Participants - DAC June15th, 2010, Anaheim CA This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_014F_01CAE2E0.8C660B90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All: This is the first announcement for the IBIS Summit Meeting scheduled along with the Design Automation Conference in Anaheim, California on June 15, 2010. Lance Wang IO Methodology Inc. www.iometh.com - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- IBIS SUMMIT FIRST CALL FOR PARTICIPATION & PRESENTATIONS - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I B I S S U M M I T M E E T I N G Time/Date: Tuesday June 15, 2010, 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM Location: Anaheim Marriott 700 West Convention Way Anaheim, California 92802-3483 Content: Presentations and Discussions Purpose: Solicit and Exchange IBIS Model Related Information and Ideas. Sponsors: IBIS Open Forum If your company would be interested in sponsoring this event, please contact Lance Wang (lwang@iometh.com) Sponsorship is available for the room, lunch, and coffee breaks. DAC: June 13 - 18, 2010 Anaheim Convention Center Anaheim, California FREE Exhibit Pass on Monday, June 14, 2010 See for more information. BACKGROUND The Design Automation Conference (DAC) is the premier Electronic Design Automation (EDA) and silicon solution event. Several vendors active in the IBIS Open Forum attend DAC. This meeting will be conducted as a formal IBIS Summit Meeting. Presentations are expected to be available and archived in an electronic format, and minutes of the meeting will be issued. Any pending formal decisions (votes) will be announced at least two weeks prior to the meeting. The annual election of officers will be held. Nominations can be sent to Lance Wang (lwang@iometh.com) or made at the meeting. CALL FOR PARTICIPANTS People involved in IBIS Model development, EDA tool development, and digital circuit design are invited to participate to the Summit meeting. If you plan to participate, please register with the information below: Name: E-mail address: Company: Telephone: Send to: Lance Wang (lwang@iometh.com) CALL FOR PRESENTATIONS We are seeking presentations from individuals who have IBIS experiences or issues. Format of Presentation: LCD Projection with Windows laptop. Time: 15-30 Minutes Electronic Archival: We request electronic versions so that the presentations can be archived and also made available to non-attendees. Formats used in the past have been text, Power Point, Word, Postscript, and Acrobat. Electronic presentations should be made available by June 7, 2004 for uploading and copying to the presentation laptop. If you plan a presentation, please supply Title: Presenter: E-mail address: Company: Telephone: Estimate Time: Send this to: Lance Wang (lwang@iometh.com) AGENDA The agenda includes presentations, discussions, breaks, and a luncheon (which will be provided). This will be developed as presentation proposals are received. LIST OF NEARBY HOTELS See (http://www.dac.com/) for travel directions, hotels and other information or use other search engines. - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - ------=_NextPart_000_014F_01CAE2E0.8C660B90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

All:

 

This is the first announcement for the IBIS Summit Meeti= ng scheduled

along with the Design Automation Conference in Anaheim, California

on June 15, 2010.

 

Lance Wang

IO Methodology Inc.

www.iometh.com

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------= - ---------------

         &n= bsp;            = ;    IBIS SUMMIT

         &n= bsp;            &nbs= p; FIRST CALL FOR

         &n= bsp;       PARTICIPATION & PRESENTATIONS<= o:p>

--------------------------------------------------------= - ---------------

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~= ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

         &n= bsp;    I B I S   S U M M I T   M E E T = I N G

 

Time/Date:  Tuesday June 15, 2010,  8:00 AM to= 5:00 PM

 

Location:   Anaheim Marriott

         &n= bsp;  700 West Convention Way

         &n= bsp;  Anaheim, California = 92802-3483

 

Content:    Presentations and Discussions=

 

Purpose:    Solicit and Exchange IBIS Mod= el Related Information

         &n= bsp;  and Ideas.

 

Sponsors:   IBIS Open Forum<= /font>

 

         &n= bsp;  If your company would be interested in sponsoring this

         &n= bsp;  event, please contact Lance Wang (lwang@iometh.com)

          &= nbsp; Sponsorship is available for the room, lunch, and coffee breaks.

 

DAC:        June 13 -= 18, 2010

         &n= bsp;  Anaheim Convention Center

         &n= bsp;  Anaheim, California

 

         &n= bsp;  FREE Exhibit Pass on Monday, Jun= e 14, 2010

         &n= bsp;  See <http://www.dac.com/> for more information.

 

 

BACKGROUND

 

    The Design Automation Conference (DAC= ) is the premier Electronic

    Design Automation (EDA) and silicon s= olution event.  Several vendors

    active in the IBIS Open Forum attend = DAC.

 

    This meeting will be conducted as a f= ormal IBIS Summit Meeting.

    Presentations are expected to be avai= lable and archived in an

    electronic format, and minutes of the= meeting will be issued.

    Any pending formal decisions (votes) = will be announced at least

    two weeks prior to the meeting.<= /o:p>

 

    The annual election of officers will = be held.  Nominations can

    be sent to Lance Wang (lwang@iometh.c= om) or made at the meeting.

 

 

CALL FOR PARTICIPANTS

 

   People involved in IBIS Model development, = EDA tool development,

   and digital circuit design are invited to p= articipate to the

   Summit meeting. If you plan to participate, please register with=

   the information below:

 

   Name:

   E-mail address:

   Company:

   Telephone:

 

Send to:

 

   Lance Wang (lwang@iometh.com)

 

CALL FOR PRESENTATIONS

 

   We are seeking presentations from individua= ls who have IBIS

   experiences or issues.

 

   Format of Presentation:  LCD Projectio= n with Windows laptop.

   Time: 15-30 Minutes

   Electronic Archival: We request electronic = versions so that the

         present= ations can be archived and also made available to

         non-att= endees.  Formats used in the past have been text,

         Power P= oint, Word, Postscript, and Acrobat.  Electronic

         present= ations should be made available by June 7, 2004

         for upl= oading and copying to the presentation laptop.

 

If you plan a presentation, please supply

 

   Title:

   Presenter:

   E-mail address:

   Company:

   Telephone:

 

   Estimate Time:

 

 

Send this to:

 

   Lance Wang (lwang@iometh.com)

 

 

AGENDA

 

   The agenda includes presentations, discussi= ons, breaks, and a

   luncheon (which will be provided).  Th= is will be developed as

   presentation proposals are received.

 

LIST OF NEARBY HOTELS

 

   See (http://www.dac.com/) for travel direct= ions, hotels and

   other information or use other search engin= es.

 


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