From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org (ibis-users) To: ibis-users-digest@eda.org Subject: ibis-users V1 #163 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ibis-users@eda.org Errors-To: owner-ibis-users@eda.org Precedence: bulk ibis-users Monday, November 15 2010 Volume 01 : Number 163 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 17:03:29 -0700 From: "Muranyi, Arpad" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Bus Switch IBIS Models This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB74A1.38A7DAD6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim, =20 It all depends on the device, but in the off state I would not expect it to have any significant series current that you would need to model with [Series=20 Current]. Series bus switches are usually in a fairly high impedance state when they are turned off... =20 Arpad =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 =20 From: Timothy Coyle [mailto:tim.coyle@siconsultant.com]=20 Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 12:50 PM To: 'Mike LaBonte'; Muranyi, Arpad; 'IBIS' Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Bus Switch IBIS Models =20 How about when the switch is in the Off state. Is there a situation where you need to simulate that with actual data such as [Series Current] or is [R Series] sufficient? Does the EDA tool just need a way to disable the switch in a batch mode type simulation? =20 Thanks =20 Tim =20 =20 From: Mike LaBonte [mailto:milabont@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 11:04 AM To: Arpad Muranyi; Timothy Coyle; IBIS Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] Bus Switch IBIS Models =20 More exactly, IBIS does not have time profile data to model the transition of a series switch between on and off states. It is certainly possible to convert the IBIS series switch model data to a circuit model using table elements, in which a control signal makes the switch transition dynamically from on to off and vice-versa. The switching time profile would have to be set by the control signal. I believe the Cadence implementation works this way, but I have heard of only one instance of someone using the capability (experimentally). I agree with Tim that automation of [Series Switch Groups] and on/off control at the EDA tool end is lacking. I think Tim is asking the right question, "does anyone really need it?" Mike On 10/22/10 10:25 AM, "Arpad Muranyi" wrote: Tim, =20 IBIS doesn't support modeling the transitions between the On/Off state. The assumption is that this is not changing during simulations. There is no information in the models that describes how these devices would transition from one state to the other. We would need something like the V-t tables in order to do that, but they don't exist for this purpose. =20 Arpad =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Timothy Coyle Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 11:35 AM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users] Bus Switch IBIS Models Hi, When you have MOSFET switch and model it using [Series Mosfet] keyword in IBIS there are two ways to pin map it. The first way is to use [Model] Series and just use [Series Pin Mapping] and this assumes that the switch is always in On state. The other way is to use [Model] Series_switch with [Series Pin Mapping] and [Series Switch Groups] and this way there can be configured On and Off states. However I have found that most simulation/cad tools do not fully support [Series Switch Groups] without manual modification by end user. Modeling the switch as a Series device just Series Pin Mapping seems to be the default supported state. =20 Has anyone else seen this issues of Series Switch Groups not being supported? Even when I do some modifications for a tool to support it many do not seem to use the Off state data. I would also be interested to hear of the simulation usage case where someone needs the ability to switch between On and Off states.=20 =20 Thanks, =20 Timothy Coyle President Signal Consulting Group LLC 405 Western Ave #430=20 South Portland, ME 04106 Tel: 617.297.2566 Email: tim.coyle@siconsultant.com =20 Web: http://www.siconsultant.com =20 SharkSim - Signal Integrity IBIS Modeling Software - --=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB74A1.38A7DAD6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [IBIS-Users] Bus Switch IBIS Models

Tim,

 

It all depends on the device, but in the off state I

would not expect it to have any significant series<= /span>

current that you would need to model with [Series <= /span>

Current].  Series bus switches are usually in a fairly

high impedance state when they are turned off…

 

Arpad

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

 

From: Timothy Coyle [mailto:tim.coyle@siconsultant.com]
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 12:50 PM
To: 'Mike LaBonte'; Muranyi, Arpad; 'IBIS'
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] Bus Switch IBIS Models

 

How about when the switch is in the Off state. Is there a situation where you need to simulate that with actual data such as [Series Current] or is [R Series] sufficient? Does the EDA tool just need a way to disable the switch in a batch mode type simulation?

 

Thanks

 

Tim

 

 <= /p>

From: Mike LaBonte [mailto:milabont@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 11:04 AM
To: Arpad Muranyi; Timothy Coyle; IBIS
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] Bus Switch IBIS Models

 

More exactly, IBIS does not have time profile data to model the transition of a series switch between on and off states. It is certainly possible to convert the IBIS series switch model da= ta to a circuit model using table elements, in which a control signal makes the switch transition dynamically from on to off and vice-versa. The switching = time profile would have to be set by the control signal. I believe the Cadence i= mplementation works this way, but I have heard of only one instance of someone using the capability (experimentally).

I agree with Tim that automation of [Series Switch Groups] and on/off contr= ol at the EDA tool end is lacking. I think Tim is asking the right question, “does anyone really need it?”

Mike

On 10/22/10 10:25 AM, "Arpad Muranyi" <Arpad_Muranyi@mentor.com> wrote:

Tim,
 
IBIS doesn’t support modeling the transitions between the On/Off stat= e.
The assumption is that this is not changing during simulations.  There=
is no information in the models that describes how these devices would
transition from one state to the other.  We would need something like<= br> the V-t tables in order to do that, but they don’t exist for this
purpose.
 
Arpad
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 
=
From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Timothy Coyle
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 11:35 AM
To: ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: [IBIS-Users] Bus Switch IBIS Models
=
Hi,
When you have MOSFET switch and model it using [Series Mosfet] keyword in I= BIS there are two ways to pin map it. The first way is to use [Model] Series and just use [Series Pin Mapping] and this assumes that the switch is always in= On state. The other way is to use [Model] Series_switch with [Series Pin Mappi= ng] and [Series Switch Groups] and this way there can be configured On and Off states. However I have found that most simulation/cad tools do not fully support [Series Switch Groups] without manual modification by end user. Modeling the switch as a Series device just Series Pin Mapping seems to be = the default supported state.
 
Has anyone else seen this issues of Series Switch Groups not being supporte= d? Even when I do some modifications for a tool to support it many do not seem= to use the Off state data. I would also be interested to hear of the simulation usage case where someone needs the ability to switch between On and Off sta= tes.
 
Thanks,
 
Timothy Coyle
President
Signal Consulting Group LLC
405 Western Ave #430
South Portland, ME  04106
Tel: 617.297.2566
Email: tim.coyle@siconsultant.com <mailto:tim.coyle@siconsultant.co= m>
Web: http://www.siconsultant.com= <http://www.siconsultant.com/> =
Sh= arkSim <http://www.sharksim.com/> <= span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>- Signal Integrity IBIS Modeling Software


--=20
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believed to be clean. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB74A1.38A7DAD6-- - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 10:16:29 -0700 From: "Tom Dagostino" Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] IBIS DIFF input buffers Tim There problem with including the ODT in a power or ground clamp if that differential termination is meant to float. Once you put that resistive characteristic in one or both of the clamp table the resistor is now tied to a voltage - it won't float anymore. Many if not all LVDS IBIS drivers behave totally different when driving a floating differential termination vs. a termination to a fixed voltage. A clamp based termination works well for CML receivers that typically have the 50 Ohm termination tied to Vdd but many technologies such as LVDS use floating terminations. Regards, Tom Dagostino Teraspeed(R) Labs 13610 SW Harness Lane Beaverton, OR 97008 503-430-1065 503-430-1285 FAX tom@teraspeed.com www.teraspeed.com Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 401-284-1827 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Timothy Coyle Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:45 AM To: 'Eric Monteiro'; ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] IBIS DIFF input buffers Hi Eric, If I understand you correctly you are using single-ended buffers to model the inverting and non-inverting pins of a differential input buffer and you are using the Series R keyword in IBIS to represent the on-die termination. If so, then in general, your approach will be valid. Basically you will want to generate the ground and power clamp IV curve on one differential input pin. Depending on the differential buffer design and technology (LVDS,CML,etc) you can leave the other differential input pin floating or you may have to put some type of load on it as a feedback loop. Other assumptions are that there is not differential current flowing as in a true differential buffer and that you can essentially treat your differential design as pseudo differential. If your differential design is unbalanced then you should create separate buffer models for each differential input pin. Unfortunately there are still a lot of EDA tool issues with using Series pin mapping and keywords so be aware of your end customers target environment. You could also always try and include the on-die termination current in the clamp IV curves to avoid using the Series keywords. Hope this helps. Best, Tim - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Eric Monteiro Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:45 PM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: [IBIS-Users] IBIS DIFF input buffers Hello Everyone I need a little validation/clarification. I have a differential input IBIS model, however my IBIS simulator is so out of date that it does not recognize the Series Keywords. So instead what I did was remove the series maping, and placed 2 single ended buffers with a resitor whos value equalled that in the Series R definition: i.e. - ------------|BUFFER| | Z Z | - ------------|BUFFER| My understanding is that the Diff buffer in IBIS DC tables should be the COMMON mode current into ONE of the diffential pins (i.e. I assume its not the sum of the current into the 2 pins, or 2 times the current I think it is). Based on that, the above should be valid. Can anyone confirm? Cheers, Eric This communication contains confidential information intended only for the addressee(s). If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and delete this communication from your mail box. - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 14:45:39 -0400 From: "Andrew Ingraham" Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] problems about extracting IV curves from SPICE model > For my circuit connection, let's take pulldown curve as an example, I give > corresponding Vdd voltage source to power suply, ground input and connect > the output to a variable voltage source (V1) and use a current probe to > measure the output current(I1) at the output port. I plot the IV curve I1 > vs. V1 and treat it as the pulldown curve. No floating voltage source in > the circuit. > Can anyone tell me what's wrong with my connection? Yuancheng, Other than the fact that the 74lvc04a is an inverter, so grounding the input drives the output high (pullup not pulldown ... I'm thinking it was a typo), your connections seem about right. Did you do this as a .DC sweep, or a slow transient simulation? The LVC part has a very wide supply voltage range. Did you use a supply voltage consistent with the IBIS table you compared it to? How well does both your simulated data, and the IBIS data, compare with the part's DC specifications for Voh and Vol? Regards, Andy - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 10:38:57 -0700 From: Bob Ross Subject: [IBIS-Users] European IBIS Summit Meeting Agenda - May 12, 2010 All: The 13th European IBIS Summit is on Wednesday afternoon and follows the IEEE Workshop on Signal Propagation on Interconnects: http://www.spi.uni-hannover.de/ Below is the meeting agenda. The IBIS meetng is free. If you plan to attend, please register with Ralf Bruening as noted below. Bob Ross Teraspeed Consulting Group Ralf Bruening Zuken EMC Technology Center - ------------------------------------------------------------------ AGENDA, EUROPEAN IBIS SUMMIT MEETING Wednesday, May 12, 2010 Van der Valk Hotel Hildesheim, Germany (in the old city center of Hildesheim) Room: Wollenweber I, Check at Entrance - ------------------------------------------------------------------ 12:30 REFRESHMENTS & SIGN IN 12:45 WELCOME AND INTRODUCTIONS Bob ROSS, Teraspeed Consulting Group, USA 13:00 IBIS Activities Bob ROSS, Teraspeed Consulting Group, USA 13:15 IBIS Model Verification Hans KLOS, Sintecs BV, The Netherlands 13:45 More on C_comp: How to Represent C_comp in IBIS Buffer Model Lance WANG, IO Methodology, USA 14:15 IBIS [Driver Schedule] Modeling Eckhard LENSKI, Nokia Siemens Networks, Germany 14:45 Enhanced M(pi)log Models for Power Integrity Analysis: Modeling from Simulation and Measurement, IBIS Data Extraction, Crossvalidation Antonio GIRADI*, Igor STIEVANO**, Roberto IZZI*, T. LESSIO*, Flavio CANAVERO**, Ivan MAIO**, and Luca RIGAZIO** *Nymonyx and **Politecnico di Torino, Italy (Presented by Antonio GIRADI*, Igor STIEVANO**) 15:15 BREAK (15 Minutes) 15:30 Qualification of Tabulated Scattering Parameters Stefano GRIVET-TALOCIA, Politecnico di Torino and IdemWorks, Italy 16:00 IBIS-AMI and Modeling Recommendations Kumar KESHAVAN and Ken WILLIS, Sigriy, USA (Presented by Srdjan DJORDJEVIC, Sigrity, Germany) 16:30 Matlab Co-simulation for IBIS-AMI Models Danil KIRSANOV, Ansys, USA 16:55 Automating AMI Model-Generation using ESL (Electronic-System-Level) Tools Amolak BADESHA, Agilent Technologies, USA 17:25 CLOSING REMARKS Bob ROSS, Teraspeed Consulting Group 17:30 END OF MEETING - ------------------------------------------------------------------ REGISTRATION INFORMATION People involved in IBIS Model development, EDA tool development, and digital circuit design are invited to participate to the Summit meeting. If you plan to participate, please register with the information below: Name: E-mail address: Company: Telephone: Send to: Ralf BRUENING (ralf.bruening@zuken.com) SPONSORS: Agilent Technologies, Mentor Graphics, Sintecs, Sigrity, and Zuken SPI CONFERENCE INFORMATION AND TRAVEL DIRECTIONS See for travel directions, conference hotel and other information. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ - -- Bob Ross Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC Teraspeed Labs 121 North River Drive 13610 SW Harness Lane Narragansett, RI 02882 Beaverton, OR 97008 401-284-1827 503-430-1065 http://www.teraspeed.com 503-246-8048 Direct bob@teraspeed.com Teraspeed is a registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 12:21:19 -0700 From: Bob Ross Subject: [IBIS-Users] Agenda, IBIS Summit at DAC - June 15, 2010 All: We are holding our annual IBIS Summit meeting at DAC per the Agenda below. You are welcome to attend. Note, that the meeting is at the Hilton Anaheim Hotel next to the Anaheim Convention Center (and not the Marriott as in the previous announcements). Please register with Lance Wang (lwang@iometh.com) if you plan to come. Bob - ------------------------------------------------------------------ AGENDA, IBIS SUMMIT MEETING June 15, 2010 Hilton Anaheim Hotel Anaheim, CA 92802 Room San Simeon A (check signs at site) - ------------------------------------------------------------------ 8:00 AM Refreshments & Sign In 8:30 AM Introductions - Welcome to Summit - Introductions - Opens for Issues, Discussion Topics 8:45 AM IBIS Open Forum Review Bob Ross, Teraspeed Consulting Group 9:05 AM Correlation Update Anders Ekholm* and Mike LaBonte**, *Ericsson and **Cisco Systems 9:30 AM Model Versus Measurement Correlation Report Amolak Badesha, Agilent Technologies 10:00 AM BREAK 10:15 AM Simple ODT Extraction Bob Ross, Teraspeed Consulting Group 10:45 AM IBIS-AMI Update Arpad Muranyi, Mentor Graphics Corporation 11:15 AM Election of Officers 11:45 AM Opens/Discussions 12:00 PM LUNCH - Pre-registration required 1:00 PM Statistical Coverage in SI System Simulations and Implications for Models Michael Mirmak, Intel Corporation 2:00 PM Predicting Low BER Probabilities Arpad Muranyi, Mentor Graphics Corporation 2:30 PM BREAK 2:45 PM Best Practices for Developing IBIS-AMI Models Walter Katz, Michael Steinberger, and Todd Westerhoff, Signal Integrity Software (SiSoft) 3:15 PM Opens/Discussion and Ad Hoc Presentations 4:55 PM Concluding Items - Next Meeting - July 2, 2010 (or July 9) - Next Summits in Asia 5:00 PM End of IBIS Summit Meeting - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ REGISTRATION People involved in IBIS Model development, EDA tool development, and digital circuit design are invited to participate to the Summit meeting. If you plan to participate, please register with the information below: Name: E-mail address: Company: Telephone: Please send registrations to lwang@iometh.com. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - -- Bob Ross Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC Teraspeed Labs 121 North River Drive 13610 SW Harness Lane Narragansett, RI 02882 Beaverton, OR 97008 401-284-1827 503-430-1065 http://www.teraspeed.com 503-246-8048 Direct bob@teraspeed.com Teraspeed is a registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail majordomo@eda-stds.org |with the appropriate command message(s) in the body: | | help | subscribe ibis | subscribe ibis-users | unsubscribe ibis | unsubscribe ibis-users | |or e-mail a request to ibis-request@eda-stds.org. | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/pub/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ End of ibis-users V1 #163 *************************