From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org (ibis-users)
To: ibis-users-digest@eda.org
Subject: ibis-users V1 #226
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ibis-users        Thursday, September 19 2013        Volume 01 : Number 226




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 14:18:34 -0700
From: "Tom Dagostino" <tom@teraspeed.com>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation issue

Andrey

I've tried this kind of extraction also. The curves looked much more CMOS
current source like than you are showing for the pulldown.  It still looks
like your feedback loop is in control of the driver and it is not happy with
Vcm.

Tom Dagostino

Teraspeed Labs
9999 SW Wilshire St.
Suite 102
Portland, OR 97225
USA

971-279-5325  Office
971-279-5326   FAX
503-430-1065  Cell

tom@teraspeed.com 
www.teraspeed.com 

Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
16 Stormy Brook Road 
Falmouth, ME 04105
401-284-1827


- -----Original Message-----
From: Babintsev Andrey-B13285 [mailto:B13285@freescale.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 12:57 PM
To: tom@teraspeed.com; 'Muranyi, Arpad'; ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation
issue

Arpad, Tom, 

Thank you for your responses. 
I used 50 Ohm because it is MLB interface. I called it LVDS to make it clear
that I was speaking about low swing differential signal. 
I inverted the curve polarity on the plot and made both of them ground
relative to make it convenient to compare source and sink currents. In the
IBIS models they were put with correct polarity, pullUp - Vdd relative, in
accordance with IBIS standard and IBIS cookbook. 
While DC sweep on the non-inverted output was done for IV curves extraction,
the inverted output was controlled by the voltage dependent voltage source
v=2*Vos-v(padp), Vos ~ 1.25V (depending on conditions).
Actually the issue was observed for slow and typ cases while for fast case
the models are in good agreement with spice models (Vmax, Vmin, Trise,
Tfall, Duty cycle matched  reference waveforms).

Regards,
Andrey
________________________________________
From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [owner-ibis-users@eda.org] on behalf of Tom
Dagostino [tom@teraspeed.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 10:39 PM
To: 'Muranyi, Arpad'; ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation
issue

Andrey

I've modeled a lot of LVDS buffers in the past and this is definitely the
strangest looking pulldown IV curve I've ever seen.  And as Arpad says it
does not at all look like a reasonable result.

First, why are you loading your LVDS buffer with a 50 Ohm differential
termination?  Most I have seen are looking for 100Ohms.

Have you inverted the pulldown's polarity?  I would also expect to see the
pulldown curve to have positive current between ground and Vdd.

LVDS buffers have a feedback loop in them so stabilize the Vcm of the
buffer.  Usually this only affect the pullup IV curve but sometimes only the
pulldown.  This makes extracting the IV characteristics of the controlled
device difficult.  The feedback is fighting the curve tracer that is
measuring the IV characteristics.  While you are doing the IV sweep you are
by definition changing Vcm and the feedback is trying to correct for this.

BTW, Ip = -In.  One is sourcing current and the other sinking.  The sourcing
should have negative currents and the sinking positive.

Tom Dagostino

Teraspeed Labs
9999 SW Wilshire St.
Suite 102
Portland, OR 97225
USA

971-279-5325  Office
971-279-5326   FAX
503-430-1065  Cell

tom@teraspeed.com<mailto:tom@teraspeed.com>
www.teraspeed.com<http://www.teraspeed.com/>

Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
16 Stormy Brook Road
Falmouth, ME 04105
401-284-1827

From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf
Of Muranyi, Arpad
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 8:31 AM
To: ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation
issue

Andrey,

I am not sure that your PD I-V curve is correct.

First of all, it should have a positive sign, but its shape doesn't look
right either.

Can you describe how you generated these I-V curves?

Thanks,

Arpad
========================================================


From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org<mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org>
[mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Andrey Babintsev
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 9:38 AM
To: ibis-users@eda.org<mailto:ibis-users@eda.org>
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation
issue

Re-sending with updated attachment

Hi,

I am making IBIS models for LVDS (low voltage differential signal) IO
buffer.
To model an LVDS buffer I created the following test circuit, assigned the
generated IBIS model to both buffers, set one buffer as inverted output.
[cid:image001.png@01CEB462.5402D6F0]

Problem:
In the image below the YELLOW waveform is what I saw and the PURPLE waveform
is what I expected to see.
[cid:image002.png@01CEB462.5402D6F0]
YELLOW = IBIS model
PURPLE = Spice ( reference ) model

Here is combined pullUp (yellow) and pullDown (green) IV curves (actually it
is spice curves from which IV tables were derived):
[cid:image003.png@01CEB462.5402D6F0]

Lets assume that simulator tries to find operational point for LVDS buffer
driving high. Then for the non-inverted buffer a point (Vp, Ip) will be
taken from pullUp table, for the inverted buffer a point (Vn, In) from
pullDown table, the following conditions should be satisfied: Ip = In, Vp -
Vn = Ip*50. On the image above it is seen that there are 2 points satisfying
the condition: Vp =~  1.45V and Vp =~ 2.2V. Seems that something like that
happened during simulation and simulator got to the second point. (BTW,
there are 60 points for the region 0.9 - 1.6V and 10 points for the region
1.6-2.5V in the IBIS model IV tables).

Question:
What can be done to resolve this situation? Should IV tables or another IBIS
structures be modified and how? I am making ibis ver. 4.2 models.

Thanks,
Andrey



On 09/18/2013 06:33 PM, Andrey Babintsev wrote:

Warning: This message has had one or more attachments removed
(fail.min.png). Please read the "EDA-Attachment-Warning.txt" attachment(s)
for more information.
Hi,

I am making IBIS models for LVDS (low voltage differential signal) IO
buffer.
To model an LVDS buffer I created the following test circuit, assigned the
generated IBIS model to both buffers, set one buffer as inverted output.
[cid:part1.07090501.06090707@freescale.com]

Problem:
In the image below the YELLOW waveform is what I saw and the PURPLE waveform
is what I expected to see.
[cid:part2.00080404.04020708@freescale.com]
YELLOW = IBIS model
PURPLE = Spice ( reference ) model

Here is combined pullUp (yellow) and pullDown (green) IV curves (actually it
is spice curves from which IV tables were derived):
[cid:part3.05090108.02030307@freescale.com]

Lets assume that simulator tries to find operational point for LVDS buffer
driving high. Then for the non-inverted buffer a point (Vp, Ip) will be
taken from pullUp table, for the inverted buffer a point (Vn, In) from
pullDown table, the following conditions should be satisfied: Ip = In, Vp -
Vn = Ip*50. On the image above it is seen that there are 2 points satisfying
the condition: Vp =~  1.45V and Vp =~ 2.2V. Seems that something like that
happened during simulation and simulator got to the second point. (BTW,
there are 60 points for the region 0.9 - 1.6V and 10 points for the region
1.6-2.5V in the IBIS model IV tables).

Question:
What can be done to resolve this situation? Should IV tables or another IBIS
structures be modified and how? I am making ibis ver. 4.2 models.

Thanks,
Andrey

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 14:47:14 +0000
From: "Muranyi, Arpad" <Arpad_Muranyi@mentor.com>
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation issue

- --_004_EB55FD6CF8C21444BE032D68DDA5FB998BA834D0NAMBX04mgcmento_
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	boundary="_000_EB55FD6CF8C21444BE032D68DDA5FB998BA834D0NAMBX04mgcmento_"


- --_000_EB55FD6CF8C21444BE032D68DDA5FB998BA834D0NAMBX04mgcmento_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Running such simulations in the DC sweep mode may be
the problem.  If the model has flip/flops in it, there
is a possibility that as the DC sweep progresses with
different values, the flip/flops initialize themselves
to different states.  As a result part of your curve
might represent one state and other parts of your curve
might represent a different state.  This could explain
why your I-V curve is so strange.  I would recommend
to do this using a time domain simulation and a ramp
source.  But make sure that the ramp goes slowly, in
the milli-second range.

Arpad
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

From: Andrey Babintsev [mailto:b13285@freescale.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 9:12 AM
To: Muranyi, Arpad
Cc: ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation =
issue

Arpad,
In this case DC sweep is a series of independent DC solutions.

Tom,
You are right, Vcm is changing unexpectedly, I will investigate further why=
 it is changing and how to control it.
Can you share how you generate LVDS models, how you control the inverted pi=
n?
Is it appropriate way:
[http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=3D1225499]
(c) http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=3D1225499

Regards,
Andrey


On 09/19/2013 02:11 AM, Muranyi, Arpad wrote:

Just another question about generating the I-V data:



How fast are you sweeping the voltage when you measure the

current?  Is it in the ns, us, ms range?  The reason I am

asking is because if you sweep it too fast, you might actually

be measuring parasitic capacitance on the die (I=3DC*dV/dt)...



Thanks,



Arpad

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



- -----Original Message-----

From: Tom Dagostino [mailto:tom@teraspeed.com]

Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 4:19 PM

To: 'Babintsev Andrey-B13285'; Muranyi, Arpad; ibis-users@eda.org<mailto:ib=
is-users@eda.org>

Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation =
issue



Andrey



I've tried this kind of extraction also. The curves looked much more CMOS

current source like than you are showing for the pulldown.  It still looks

like your feedback loop is in control of the driver and it is not happy with

Vcm.



Tom Dagostino



Teraspeed Labs

9999 SW Wilshire St.

Suite 102

Portland, OR 97225

USA



971-279-5325  Office

971-279-5326   FAX

503-430-1065  Cell



tom@teraspeed.com<mailto:tom@teraspeed.com>

www.teraspeed.com<http://www.teraspeed.com>



Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC

16 Stormy Brook Road

Falmouth, ME 04105

401-284-1827





- -----Original Message-----

From: Babintsev Andrey-B13285 [mailto:B13285@freescale.com]

Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 12:57 PM

To: tom@teraspeed.com<mailto:tom@teraspeed.com>; 'Muranyi, Arpad'; ibis-use=
rs@eda.org<mailto:ibis-users@eda.org>

Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation

issue



Arpad, Tom,



Thank you for your responses.

I used 50 Ohm because it is MLB interface. I called it LVDS to make it clear

that I was speaking about low swing differential signal.

I inverted the curve polarity on the plot and made both of them ground

relative to make it convenient to compare source and sink currents. In the

IBIS models they were put with correct polarity, pullUp - Vdd relative, in

accordance with IBIS standard and IBIS cookbook.

While DC sweep on the non-inverted output was done for IV curves extraction,

the inverted output was controlled by the voltage dependent voltage source

v=3D2*Vos-v(padp), Vos ~ 1.25V (depending on conditions).

Actually the issue was observed for slow and typ cases while for fast case

the models are in good agreement with spice models (Vmax, Vmin, Trise,

Tfall, Duty cycle matched  reference waveforms).



Regards,

Andrey

________________________________________

From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org<mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org> [owner-ibis=
- -users@eda.org<mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org>] on behalf of Tom

Dagostino [tom@teraspeed.com<mailto:tom@teraspeed.com>]

Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 10:39 PM

To: 'Muranyi, Arpad'; ibis-users@eda.org<mailto:ibis-users@eda.org>

Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation

issue



Andrey



I've modeled a lot of LVDS buffers in the past and this is definitely the

strangest looking pulldown IV curve I've ever seen.  And as Arpad says it

does not at all look like a reasonable result.



First, why are you loading your LVDS buffer with a 50 Ohm differential

termination?  Most I have seen are looking for 100Ohms.



Have you inverted the pulldown's polarity?  I would also expect to see the

pulldown curve to have positive current between ground and Vdd.



LVDS buffers have a feedback loop in them so stabilize the Vcm of the

buffer.  Usually this only affect the pullup IV curve but sometimes only the

pulldown.  This makes extracting the IV characteristics of the controlled

device difficult.  The feedback is fighting the curve tracer that is

measuring the IV characteristics.  While you are doing the IV sweep you are

by definition changing Vcm and the feedback is trying to correct for this.



BTW, Ip =3D -In.  One is sourcing current and the other sinking.  The sourc=
ing

should have negative currents and the sinking positive.



Tom Dagostino



Teraspeed Labs

9999 SW Wilshire St.

Suite 102

Portland, OR 97225

USA



971-279-5325  Office

971-279-5326   FAX

503-430-1065  Cell



tom@teraspeed.com<mailto:tom@teraspeed.com><mailto:tom@teraspeed.com><mailt=
o:tom@teraspeed.com>

www.teraspeed.com<http://www.teraspeed.com><http://www.teraspeed.com/><http=
://www.teraspeed.com/>



Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC

16 Stormy Brook Road

Falmouth, ME 04105

401-284-1827



From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org<mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org> [mailto:own=
er-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf

Of Muranyi, Arpad

Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 8:31 AM

To: ibis-users@eda.org<mailto:ibis-users@eda.org>

Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation

issue



Andrey,



I am not sure that your PD I-V curve is correct.



First of all, it should have a positive sign, but its shape doesn't look

right either.



Can you describe how you generated these I-V curves?



Thanks,



Arpad

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D





From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org<mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org><mailto:owne=
r-ibis-users@eda.org><mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org>

[mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Andrey Babintsev

Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 9:38 AM

To: ibis-users@eda.org<mailto:ibis-users@eda.org><mailto:ibis-users@eda.org=
><mailto:ibis-users@eda.org>

Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation

issue



Re-sending with updated attachment



Hi,



I am making IBIS models for LVDS (low voltage differential signal) IO

buffer.

To model an LVDS buffer I created the following test circuit, assigned the

generated IBIS model to both buffers, set one buffer as inverted output.

[cid:image001.png@01CEB462.5402D6F0]



Problem:

In the image below the YELLOW waveform is what I saw and the PURPLE waveform

is what I expected to see.

[cid:image002.png@01CEB462.5402D6F0]

YELLOW =3D IBIS model

PURPLE =3D Spice ( reference ) model



Here is combined pullUp (yellow) and pullDown (green) IV curves (actually it

is spice curves from which IV tables were derived):

[cid:image003.png@01CEB462.5402D6F0]



Lets assume that simulator tries to find operational point for LVDS buffer

driving high. Then for the non-inverted buffer a point (Vp, Ip) will be

taken from pullUp table, for the inverted buffer a point (Vn, In) from

pullDown table, the following conditions should be satisfied: Ip =3D In, Vp=
 -

Vn =3D Ip*50. On the image above it is seen that there are 2 points satisfy=
ing

the condition: Vp =3D~  1.45V and Vp =3D~ 2.2V. Seems that something like t=
hat

happened during simulation and simulator got to the second point. (BTW,

there are 60 points for the region 0.9 - 1.6V and 10 points for the region

1.6-2.5V in the IBIS model IV tables).



Question:

What can be done to resolve this situation? Should IV tables or another IBIS

structures be modified and how? I am making ibis ver. 4.2 models.



Thanks,

Andrey







On 09/18/2013 06:33 PM, Andrey Babintsev wrote:



Warning: This message has had one or more attachments removed

(fail.min.png). Please read the "EDA-Attachment-Warning.txt" attachment(s)

for more information.

Hi,



I am making IBIS models for LVDS (low voltage differential signal) IO

buffer.

To model an LVDS buffer I created the following test circuit, assigned the

generated IBIS model to both buffers, set one buffer as inverted output.

[cid:part1.07090501.06090707@freescale.com]



Problem:

In the image below the YELLOW waveform is what I saw and the PURPLE waveform

is what I expected to see.

[cid:part2.00080404.04020708@freescale.com]

YELLOW =3D IBIS model

PURPLE =3D Spice ( reference ) model



Here is combined pullUp (yellow) and pullDown (green) IV curves (actually it

is spice curves from which IV tables were derived):

[cid:part3.05090108.02030307@freescale.com]



Lets assume that simulator tries to find operational point for LVDS buffer

driving high. Then for the non-inverted buffer a point (Vp, Ip) will be

taken from pullUp table, for the inverted buffer a point (Vn, In) from

pullDown table, the following conditions should be satisfied: Ip =3D In, Vp=
 -

Vn =3D Ip*50. On the image above it is seen that there are 2 points satisfy=
ing

the condition: Vp =3D~  1.45V and Vp =3D~ 2.2V. Seems that something like t=
hat

happened during simulation and simulator got to the second point. (BTW,

there are 60 points for the region 0.9 - 1.6V and 10 points for the region

1.6-2.5V in the IBIS model IV tables).



Question:

What can be done to resolve this situation? Should IV tables or another IBIS

structures be modified and how? I am making ibis ver. 4.2 models.



Thanks,

Andrey



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Running such simulations in the DC sweep mode =
may be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">the problem.&nbsp; If the model has flip/flops=
 in it, there<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">is a possibility that as the DC sweep progress=
es with<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">different values, the flip/flops initialize th=
emselves<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">to different states.&nbsp; As a result part of=
 your curve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">might represent one state and other parts of y=
our curve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">might represent a different state.&nbsp; This =
could explain
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">why your I-V curve is so strange.&nbsp; I woul=
d recommend<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">to do this using a time domain simulation and =
a ramp<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">source.&nbsp; But make sure that the ramp goes=
 slowly, in<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">the milli-second range.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Arpad<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> Andrey Babintsev [mailto:b13285@freescale.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 19, 2013 9:12 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Muranyi, Arpad<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ibis-users@eda.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simu=
lation issue<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Arpad</b>,<br>
In this case DC sweep is a series of independent DC solutions.<br>
<br>
<b>Tom,</b><br>
You are right, Vcm is changing unexpectedly, I will investigate further why=
 it is changing and how to control it.
<br>
Can you share how you generate LVDS models, how you control the inverted pi=
n?<br>
Is it appropriate way:<br>
<img width=3D"800" height=3D"400" id=3D"_x0000_i1025" src=3D"cid:image001.j=
pg@01CEB51D.34C1D3C0" alt=3D"http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=3D1=
225499"><br>
(c) <a href=3D"http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=3D1225499">http:/=
/www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=3D1225499</a><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Andrey<br>
<br>
<br>
On 09/19/2013 02:11 AM, Muranyi, Arpad wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">J=
ust another question about generating the I-V data:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">H=
ow fast are you sweeping the voltage when you measure the<o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">c=
urrent?&nbsp; Is it in the ns, us, ms range?&nbsp; The reason I am<o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">a=
sking is because if you sweep it too fast, you might actually<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">b=
e measuring parasitic capacitance on the die (I=3DC*dV/dt)...<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
hanks,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">A=
rpad<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">-=
- ----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">F=
rom: Tom Dagostino [<a href=3D"mailto:tom@teraspeed.com">mailto:tom@teraspe=
ed.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">S=
ent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 4:19 PM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
o: 'Babintsev Andrey-B13285'; Muranyi, Arpad; <a href=3D"mailto:ibis-users@=
eda.org">ibis-users@eda.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">S=
ubject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation i=
ssue<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">A=
ndrey<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I=
've tried this kind of extraction also. The curves looked much more CMOS<o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">c=
urrent source like than you are showing for the pulldown.&nbsp; It still lo=
oks<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">l=
ike your feedback loop is in control of the driver and it is not happy with=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">V=
cm.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
om Dagostino<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
eraspeed Labs<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">9=
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<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">P=
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<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">U=
SA<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
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<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
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<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:tom@teraspeed.com">tom@teraspeed.com</a> <o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
a href=3D"http://www.teraspeed.com">www.teraspeed.com</a> <o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
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<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
eraspeed Consulting Group LLC<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">1=
6 Stormy Brook Road <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">F=
almouth, ME 04105<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">4=
01-284-1827<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">-=
- ----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">F=
rom: Babintsev Andrey-B13285 [<a href=3D"mailto:B13285@freescale.com">mailt=
o:B13285@freescale.com</a>] <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">S=
ent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 12:57 PM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
o: <a href=3D"mailto:tom@teraspeed.com">tom@teraspeed.com</a>; 'Muranyi, Ar=
pad'; <a href=3D"mailto:ibis-users@eda.org">ibis-users@eda.org</a><o:p></o:=
p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">S=
ubject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">i=
ssue<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">A=
rpad, Tom, <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
hank you for your responses. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I=
 used 50 Ohm because it is MLB interface. I called it LVDS to make it clear=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">t=
hat I was speaking about low swing differential signal. <o:p></o:p></span><=
/pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I=
 inverted the curve polarity on the plot and made both of them ground<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">r=
elative to make it convenient to compare source and sink currents. In the<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I=
BIS models they were put with correct polarity, pullUp - Vdd relative, in<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">a=
ccordance with IBIS standard and IBIS cookbook. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">W=
hile DC sweep on the non-inverted output was done for IV curves extraction,=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">t=
he inverted output was controlled by the voltage dependent voltage source<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">v=
=3D2*Vos-v(padp), Vos ~ 1.25V (depending on conditions).<o:p></o:p></span><=
/pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">A=
ctually the issue was observed for slow and typ cases while for fast case<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">t=
he models are in good agreement with spice models (Vmax, Vmin, Trise,<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
fall, Duty cycle matched&nbsp; reference waveforms).<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">R=
egards,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">A=
ndrey<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">_=
_______________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">F=
rom: <a href=3D"mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org">owner-ibis-users@eda.org</=
a> [<a href=3D"mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org">owner-ibis-users@eda.org</a=
>] on behalf of Tom<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">D=
agostino [<a href=3D"mailto:tom@teraspeed.com">tom@teraspeed.com</a>]<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">S=
ent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 10:39 PM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
o: 'Muranyi, Arpad'; <a href=3D"mailto:ibis-users@eda.org">ibis-users@eda.o=
rg</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">S=
ubject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">i=
ssue<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">A=
ndrey<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I=
've modeled a lot of LVDS buffers in the past and this is definitely the<o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">s=
trangest looking pulldown IV curve I've ever seen.&nbsp; And as Arpad says =
it<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">d=
oes not at all look like a reasonable result.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">F=
irst, why are you loading your LVDS buffer with a 50 Ohm differential<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">t=
ermination?&nbsp; Most I have seen are looking for 100Ohms.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">H=
ave you inverted the pulldown's polarity?&nbsp; I would also expect to see =
the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">p=
ulldown curve to have positive current between ground and Vdd.<o:p></o:p></=
span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">L=
VDS buffers have a feedback loop in them so stabilize the Vcm of the<o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">b=
uffer.&nbsp; Usually this only affect the pullup IV curve but sometimes onl=
y the<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">p=
ulldown.&nbsp; This makes extracting the IV characteristics of the controll=
ed<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">d=
evice difficult.&nbsp; The feedback is fighting the curve tracer that is<o:=
p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">m=
easuring the IV characteristics.&nbsp; While you are doing the IV sweep you=
 are<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">b=
y definition changing Vcm and the feedback is trying to correct for this.<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">B=
TW, Ip =3D -In.&nbsp; One is sourcing current and the other sinking.&nbsp; =
The sourcing<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">s=
hould have negative currents and the sinking positive.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
re>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
om Dagostino<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
eraspeed Labs<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">9=
999 SW Wilshire St.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">S=
uite 102<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">P=
ortland, OR 97225<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">U=
SA<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">9=
71-279-5325&nbsp; Office<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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71-279-5326&nbsp;&nbsp; FAX<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">5=
03-430-1065&nbsp; Cell<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
a href=3D"mailto:tom@teraspeed.com">tom@teraspeed.com</a><a href=3D"mailto:=
tom@teraspeed.com">&lt;mailto:tom@teraspeed.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></span></=
pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
a href=3D"http://www.teraspeed.com">www.teraspeed.com</a><a href=3D"http://=
www.teraspeed.com/">&lt;http://www.teraspeed.com/&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
eraspeed Consulting Group LLC<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">1=
6 Stormy Brook Road<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">F=
almouth, ME 04105<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">4=
01-284-1827<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">F=
rom: <a href=3D"mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org">owner-ibis-users@eda.org</=
a> [<a href=3D"mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org">mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda=
.org</a>] On Behalf<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">O=
f Muranyi, Arpad<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">S=
ent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 8:31 AM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
o: <a href=3D"mailto:ibis-users@eda.org">ibis-users@eda.org</a><o:p></o:p><=
/span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">S=
ubject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">i=
ssue<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">A=
ndrey,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I=
 am not sure that your PD I-V curve is correct.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">F=
irst of all, it should have a positive sign, but its shape doesn't look<o:p=
></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">r=
ight either.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">C=
an you describe how you generated these I-V curves?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
hanks,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">A=
rpad<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">F=
rom: <a href=3D"mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org">owner-ibis-users@eda.org</=
a><a href=3D"mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org">&lt;mailto:owner-ibis-users@e=
da.org&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">[=
<a href=3D"mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org">mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org=
</a>] On Behalf Of Andrey Babintsev<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">S=
ent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 9:38 AM<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
o: <a href=3D"mailto:ibis-users@eda.org">ibis-users@eda.org</a><a href=3D"m=
ailto:ibis-users@eda.org">&lt;mailto:ibis-users@eda.org&gt;</a><o:p></o:p><=
/span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">S=
ubject: Re: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">i=
ssue<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">R=
e-sending with updated attachment<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">H=
i,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I=
 am making IBIS models for LVDS (low voltage differential signal) IO<o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">b=
uffer.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
o model an LVDS buffer I created the following test circuit, assigned the<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">g=
enerated IBIS model to both buffers, set one buffer as inverted output.<o:p=
></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">[=
<a href=3D"cid:image001.png@01CEB462.5402D6F0">cid:image001.png@01CEB462.54=
02D6F0</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">P=
roblem:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I=
n the image below the YELLOW waveform is what I saw and the PURPLE waveform=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">i=
s what I expected to see.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">[=
<a href=3D"cid:image002.png@01CEB462.5402D6F0">cid:image002.png@01CEB462.54=
02D6F0</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Y=
ELLOW =3D IBIS model<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">P=
URPLE =3D Spice ( reference ) model<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">H=
ere is combined pullUp (yellow) and pullDown (green) IV curves (actually it=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">i=
s spice curves from which IV tables were derived):<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">[=
<a href=3D"cid:image003.png@01CEB462.5402D6F0">cid:image003.png@01CEB462.54=
02D6F0</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">L=
ets assume that simulator tries to find operational point for LVDS buffer<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">d=
riving high. Then for the non-inverted buffer a point (Vp, Ip) will be<o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">t=
aken from pullUp table, for the inverted buffer a point (Vn, In) from<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">p=
ullDown table, the following conditions should be satisfied: Ip =3D In, Vp =
- -<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">V=
n =3D Ip*50. On the image above it is seen that there are 2 points satisfyi=
ng<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">t=
he condition: Vp =3D~&nbsp; 1.45V and Vp =3D~ 2.2V. Seems that something li=
ke that<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">h=
appened during simulation and simulator got to the second point. (BTW,<o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">t=
here are 60 points for the region 0.9 - 1.6V and 10 points for the region<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">1=
.6-2.5V in the IBIS model IV tables).<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Q=
uestion:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">W=
hat can be done to resolve this situation? Should IV tables or another IBIS=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">s=
tructures be modified and how? I am making ibis ver. 4.2 models.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
hanks,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">A=
ndrey<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">O=
n 09/18/2013 06:33 PM, Andrey Babintsev wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">W=
arning: This message has had one or more attachments removed<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">(=
fail.min.png). Please read the &quot;EDA-Attachment-Warning.txt&quot; attac=
hment(s)<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">f=
or more information.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">H=
i,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I=
 am making IBIS models for LVDS (low voltage differential signal) IO<o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">b=
uffer.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
o model an LVDS buffer I created the following test circuit, assigned the<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">g=
enerated IBIS model to both buffers, set one buffer as inverted output.<o:p=
></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">[=
<a href=3D"cid:part1.07090501.06090707@freescale.com">cid:part1.07090501.06=
090707@freescale.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">P=
roblem:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I=
n the image below the YELLOW waveform is what I saw and the PURPLE waveform=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">i=
s what I expected to see.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">[=
<a href=3D"cid:part2.00080404.04020708@freescale.com">cid:part2.00080404.04=
020708@freescale.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Y=
ELLOW =3D IBIS model<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">P=
URPLE =3D Spice ( reference ) model<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">H=
ere is combined pullUp (yellow) and pullDown (green) IV curves (actually it=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">i=
s spice curves from which IV tables were derived):<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">[=
<a href=3D"cid:part3.05090108.02030307@freescale.com">cid:part3.05090108.02=
030307@freescale.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">L=
ets assume that simulator tries to find operational point for LVDS buffer<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">d=
riving high. Then for the non-inverted buffer a point (Vp, Ip) will be<o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">t=
aken from pullUp table, for the inverted buffer a point (Vn, In) from<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">p=
ullDown table, the following conditions should be satisfied: Ip =3D In, Vp =
- -<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">V=
n =3D Ip*50. On the image above it is seen that there are 2 points satisfyi=
ng<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">t=
he condition: Vp =3D~&nbsp; 1.45V and Vp =3D~ 2.2V. Seems that something li=
ke that<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">h=
appened during simulation and simulator got to the second point. (BTW,<o:p>=
</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">t=
here are 60 points for the region 0.9 - 1.6V and 10 points for the region<o=
:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">1=
.6-2.5V in the IBIS model IV tables).<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Q=
uestion:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">W=
hat can be done to resolve this situation? Should IV tables or another IBIS=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">s=
tructures be modified and how? I am making ibis ver. 4.2 models.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
hanks,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">A=
ndrey<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">-=
- -<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
his message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">M=
ailScanner<a href=3D"http://www.mailscanner.info/">&lt;http://www.mailscann=
er.info/&gt;</a>, and is believed to be clean.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">-=
- -<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
his message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">M=
ailScanner<a href=3D"http://www.mailscanner.info/">&lt;http://www.mailscann=
er.info/&gt;</a>, and is believed to be clean.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">-=
- -<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">T=
his message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">M=
ailScanner<a href=3D"http://www.mailscanner.info/">&lt;http://www.mailscann=
er.info/&gt;</a>, and is believed to be clean.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br />--=20
<br />This message has been scanned for viruses and
<br />dangerous content by
<a href=3D"http://www.mailscanner.info/"><b>MailScanner</b></a>, and is
<br />believed to be clean.
</body>
</html>

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End of ibis-users V1 #226
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