From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org (ibis-users) To: ibis-users-digest@eda.org Subject: ibis-users V1 #233 Reply-To: Sender: owner-ibis-users@eda.org Errors-To: owner-ibis-users@eda.org Precedence: bulk ibis-users Thursday, January 30 2014 Volume 01 : Number 233 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:36:01 +0530 From: Udaya Kumar Raju Subject: [IBIS-Users] RE: IBIS error - --_004_6B8C251C14212B4EB9EB910AE62587FC5C371AE4BESINCHNMBX001T_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6B8C251C14212B4EB9EB910AE62587FC5C371AE4BESINCHNMBX001T_" - --_000_6B8C251C14212B4EB9EB910AE62587FC5C371AE4BESINCHNMBX001T_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-NAIMIME-Disclaimer: 1 X-NAIMIME-Modified: 1 U2FuZGVlcCwNClRoYXQgcGluIG1pZ2h0IGJlIGhhdmluZyBkdWFsIGVudHJ5 IGluIElCSVMgbW9kZWwuDQpJZiB5b3UgZGVsZXRlIG9uZSBlbnRyeSAoVW51 c2VkIGVudHJ5KSwgaXTigJlsbCB3b3JrIHdpdGhvdXQgYW55IGlzc3VlLg0K 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--_006_EB55FD6CF8C21444BE032D68DDA5FB998BA82FE8NAMBX04mgcmento_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_EB55FD6CF8C21444BE032D68DDA5FB998BA82FE8NAMBX04mgcmento_" - --_000_EB55FD6CF8C21444BE032D68DDA5FB998BA82FE8NAMBX04mgcmento_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrey, I am not sure that your PD I-V curve is correct. First of all, it should have a positive sign, but its shape doesn't look right either. Can you describe how you generated these I-V curves? Thanks, Arpad =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf = Of Andrey Babintsev Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 9:38 AM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation = issue Re-sending with updated attachment Hi, I am making IBIS models for LVDS (low voltage differential signal) IO buffe= r. To model an LVDS buffer I created the following test circuit, assigned the = generated IBIS model to both buffers, set one buffer as inverted output. [cid:image001.png@01CEB45A.2C60C9C0] Problem: In the image below the YELLOW waveform is what I saw and the PURPLE wavefor= m is what I expected to see. [cid:image002.png@01CEB45A.2C60C9C0] YELLOW =3D IBIS model PURPLE =3D Spice ( reference ) model Here is combined pullUp (yellow) and pullDown (green) IV curves (actually i= t is spice curves from which IV tables were derived): [cid:image003.png@01CEB45A.2C60C9C0] Lets assume that simulator tries to find operational point for LVDS buffer = driving high. Then for the non-inverted buffer a point (Vp, Ip) will be tak= en from pullUp table, for the inverted buffer a point (Vn, In) from pullDow= n table, the following conditions should be satisfied: Ip =3D In, Vp - Vn = =3D Ip*50. On the image above it is seen that there are 2 points satisfying= the condition: Vp =3D~ 1.45V and Vp =3D~ 2.2V. Seems that something like = that happened during simulation and simulator got to the second point. (BTW= , there are 60 points for the region 0.9 - 1.6V and 10 points for the regio= n 1.6-2.5V in the IBIS model IV tables). Question: What can be done to resolve this situation? Should IV tables or another IBI= S structures be modified and how? I am making ibis ver. 4.2 models. Thanks, Andrey On 09/18/2013 06:33 PM, Andrey Babintsev wrote: Warning: This message has had one or more attachments removed (fail.min.png= ). Please read the "EDA-Attachment-Warning.txt" attachment(s) for more info= rmation. Hi, I am making IBIS models for LVDS (low voltage differential signal) IO buffe= r. To model an LVDS buffer I created the following test circuit, assigned the = generated IBIS model to both buffers, set one buffer as inverted output. [cid:part1.07090501.06090707@freescale.com] Problem: In the image below the YELLOW waveform is what I saw and the PURPLE wavefor= m is what I expected to see. [cid:part2.00080404.04020708@freescale.com] YELLOW =3D IBIS model PURPLE =3D Spice ( reference ) model Here is combined pullUp (yellow) and pullDown (green) IV curves (actually i= t is spice curves from which IV tables were derived): [cid:part3.05090108.02030307@freescale.com] Lets assume that simulator tries to find operational point for LVDS buffer = driving high. Then for the non-inverted buffer a point (Vp, Ip) will be tak= en from pullUp table, for the inverted buffer a point (Vn, In) from pullDow= n table, the following conditions should be satisfied: Ip =3D In, Vp - Vn = =3D Ip*50. On the image above it is seen that there are 2 points satisfying= the condition: Vp =3D~ 1.45V and Vp =3D~ 2.2V. Seems that something like = that happened during simulation and simulator got to the second point. (BTW= , there are 60 points for the region 0.9 - 1.6V and 10 points for the regio= n 1.6-2.5V in the IBIS model IV tables). Question: What can be done to resolve this situation? Should IV tables or another IBI= S structures be modified and how? I am making ibis ver. 4.2 models. Thanks, Andrey - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - --=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - --_000_EB55FD6CF8C21444BE032D68DDA5FB998BA82FE8NAMBX04mgcmento_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Andrey,

 

I am not sure that your PD I-V curve is correc= t.

 

First of all, it should have a positive sign, = but

its shape doesn’t look right either.

 

Can you describe how you generated these I-V c= urves?

 

Thanks,

 

Arpad

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users= @eda.org] On Behalf Of Andrey Babintsev
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 9:38 AM
To: ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simu= lation issue

 

Re-sending with updated attachment

Hi,

I am making IBIS models for LVDS (low voltage differential signal) IO buffe= r.
To model an LVDS buffer I created the following test circuit, assigned the = generated IBIS model to both buffers, set one buffer as inverted output.


Problem:
In the image below the YELLOW waveform is what I saw and the PURPLE wavefor= m is what I expected to see.

YELLOW =3D IBIS model
PURPLE =3D Spice ( reference ) model

Here is combined pullUp (yellow) and pullDown (green) IV curves (actually i= t is spice curves from which IV tables were derived):


Lets assume that simulator tries to find operational point for LVDS buffer = driving high. Then for the non-inverted buffer a point (Vp, Ip) will be tak= en from pullUp table, for the inverted buffer a point (Vn, In) from pullDow= n table, the following conditions should be satisfied: Ip =3D In, Vp - Vn =3D Ip*50. On the image above it i= s seen that there are 2 points satisfying the condition: Vp =3D~  1.45= V and Vp =3D~ 2.2V. Seems that something like that happened during simulati= on and simulator got to the second point. (BTW, there are 60 points for the region 0.9 - 1.6V and 10 points for the region= 1.6-2.5V in the IBIS model IV tables).

Question:
What can be done to resolve this situation? Should IV tables or another IBI= S structures be modified and how? I am making ibis ver. 4.2 models.

Thanks,
Andrey



On 09/18/2013 06:33 PM, Andrey Babintsev wrote:

Warning: This message has had one or= more attachments removed (fail.min.png). Please read the "EDA-Attachm= ent-Warning.txt" attachment(s) for more information.

Hi,

I am making IBIS models for LVDS (low voltage differential signal) IO buffe= r.
To model an LVDS buffer I created the following test circuit, assigned the = generated IBIS model to both buffers, set one buffer as inverted output.


Problem:
In the image below the YELLOW waveform is what I saw and the PURPLE wavefor= m is what I expected to see.

YELLOW =3D IBIS model
PURPLE =3D Spice ( reference ) model

Here is combined pullUp (yellow) and pullDown (green) IV curves (actually i= t is spice curves from which IV tables were derived):


Lets assume that simulator tries to find operational point for LVDS buffer = driving high. Then for the non-inverted buffer a point (Vp, Ip) will be tak= en from pullUp table, for the inverted buffer a point (Vn, In) from pullDow= n table, the following conditions should be satisfied: Ip =3D In, Vp - Vn =3D Ip*50. On the image above it i= s seen that there are 2 points satisfying the condition: Vp =3D~  1.45= V and Vp =3D~ 2.2V. Seems that something like that happened during simulati= on and simulator got to the second point. (BTW, there are 60 points for the region 0.9 - 1.6V and 10 points for the region= 1.6-2.5V in the IBIS model IV tables).

Question:
What can be done to resolve this situation? Should IV tables or another IBI= S structures be modified and how? I am making ibis ver. 4.2 models.

Thanks,
Andrey


- --
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanne= r, and is
believed to be clean.


--=20
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
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-------------------------------------------------------------------- |For help or to subscribe/unsubscribe, e-mail mikelabonte@eda-stds.org |or ibis-request@eda-stds.org | |IBIS reflector archives exist under: | | http://www.eda-stds.org/ibis/email_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/ibis/users_archive/ Recent | http://www.eda-stds.org/ibis/email/ E-mail since 1993 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 18:12:11 +0400 From: Andrey Babintsev Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation issue - --------------040600090702030508090605 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *Arpad*, In this case DC sweep is a series of independent DC solutions. *Tom,* You are right, Vcm is changing unexpectedly, I will investigate further why it is changing and how to control it. Can you share how you generate LVDS models, how you control the inverted pin? Is it appropriate way: http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1225499 (c) http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1225499 Regards, Andrey On 09/19/2013 02:11 AM, Muranyi, Arpad wrote: > Just another question about generating the I-V data: > > How fast are you sweeping the voltage when you measure the > current? Is it in the ns, us, ms range? The reason I am > asking is because if you sweep it too fast, you might actually > be measuring parasitic capacitance on the die (I=C*dV/dt)... > > Thanks, > > Arpad > =============================================================== > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Dagostino [mailto:tom@teraspeed.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 4:19 PM > To: 'Babintsev Andrey-B13285'; Muranyi, Arpad; ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation issue > > Andrey > > I've tried this kind of extraction also. The curves looked much more CMOS > current source like than you are showing for the pulldown. It still looks > like your feedback loop is in control of the driver and it is not happy with > Vcm. > > Tom Dagostino > > Teraspeed Labs > 9999 SW Wilshire St. > Suite 102 > Portland, OR 97225 > USA > > 971-279-5325 Office > 971-279-5326 FAX > 503-430-1065 Cell > > tom@teraspeed.com > www.teraspeed.com > > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > 16 Stormy Brook Road > Falmouth, ME 04105 > 401-284-1827 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Babintsev Andrey-B13285 [mailto:B13285@freescale.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 12:57 PM > To: tom@teraspeed.com; 'Muranyi, Arpad'; ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation > issue > > Arpad, Tom, > > Thank you for your responses. > I used 50 Ohm because it is MLB interface. I called it LVDS to make it clear > that I was speaking about low swing differential signal. > I inverted the curve polarity on the plot and made both of them ground > relative to make it convenient to compare source and sink currents. In the > IBIS models they were put with correct polarity, pullUp - Vdd relative, in > accordance with IBIS standard and IBIS cookbook. > While DC sweep on the non-inverted output was done for IV curves extraction, > the inverted output was controlled by the voltage dependent voltage source > v=2*Vos-v(padp), Vos ~ 1.25V (depending on conditions). > Actually the issue was observed for slow and typ cases while for fast case > the models are in good agreement with spice models (Vmax, Vmin, Trise, > Tfall, Duty cycle matched reference waveforms). > > Regards, > Andrey > ________________________________________ > From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [owner-ibis-users@eda.org] on behalf of Tom > Dagostino [tom@teraspeed.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 10:39 PM > To: 'Muranyi, Arpad'; ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation > issue > > Andrey > > I've modeled a lot of LVDS buffers in the past and this is definitely the > strangest looking pulldown IV curve I've ever seen. And as Arpad says it > does not at all look like a reasonable result. > > First, why are you loading your LVDS buffer with a 50 Ohm differential > termination? Most I have seen are looking for 100Ohms. > > Have you inverted the pulldown's polarity? I would also expect to see the > pulldown curve to have positive current between ground and Vdd. > > LVDS buffers have a feedback loop in them so stabilize the Vcm of the > buffer. Usually this only affect the pullup IV curve but sometimes only the > pulldown. This makes extracting the IV characteristics of the controlled > device difficult. The feedback is fighting the curve tracer that is > measuring the IV characteristics. While you are doing the IV sweep you are > by definition changing Vcm and the feedback is trying to correct for this. > > BTW, Ip = -In. One is sourcing current and the other sinking. The sourcing > should have negative currents and the sinking positive. > > Tom Dagostino > > Teraspeed Labs > 9999 SW Wilshire St. > Suite 102 > Portland, OR 97225 > USA > > 971-279-5325 Office > 971-279-5326 FAX > 503-430-1065 Cell > > tom@teraspeed.com > www.teraspeed.com > > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > 16 Stormy Brook Road > Falmouth, ME 04105 > 401-284-1827 > > From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf > Of Muranyi, Arpad > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 8:31 AM > To: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation > issue > > Andrey, > > I am not sure that your PD I-V curve is correct. > > First of all, it should have a positive sign, but its shape doesn't look > right either. > > Can you describe how you generated these I-V curves? > > Thanks, > > Arpad > ======================================================== > > > From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org > [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Andrey Babintsev > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 9:38 AM > To: ibis-users@eda.org > Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation > issue > > Re-sending with updated attachment > > Hi, > > I am making IBIS models for LVDS (low voltage differential signal) IO > buffer. > To model an LVDS buffer I created the following test circuit, assigned the > generated IBIS model to both buffers, set one buffer as inverted output. > [cid:image001.png@01CEB462.5402D6F0] > > Problem: > In the image below the YELLOW waveform is what I saw and the PURPLE waveform > is what I expected to see. > [cid:image002.png@01CEB462.5402D6F0] > YELLOW = IBIS model > PURPLE = Spice ( reference ) model > > Here is combined pullUp (yellow) and pullDown (green) IV curves (actually it > is spice curves from which IV tables were derived): > [cid:image003.png@01CEB462.5402D6F0] > > Lets assume that simulator tries to find operational point for LVDS buffer > driving high. Then for the non-inverted buffer a point (Vp, Ip) will be > taken from pullUp table, for the inverted buffer a point (Vn, In) from > pullDown table, the following conditions should be satisfied: Ip = In, Vp - > Vn = Ip*50. On the image above it is seen that there are 2 points satisfying > the condition: Vp =~ 1.45V and Vp =~ 2.2V. Seems that something like that > happened during simulation and simulator got to the second point. (BTW, > there are 60 points for the region 0.9 - 1.6V and 10 points for the region > 1.6-2.5V in the IBIS model IV tables). > > Question: > What can be done to resolve this situation? Should IV tables or another IBIS > structures be modified and how? I am making ibis ver. 4.2 models. > > Thanks, > Andrey > > > > On 09/18/2013 06:33 PM, Andrey Babintsev wrote: > > Warning: This message has had one or more attachments removed > (fail.min.png). Please read the "EDA-Attachment-Warning.txt" attachment(s) > for more information. > Hi, > > I am making IBIS models for LVDS (low voltage differential signal) IO > buffer. > To model an LVDS buffer I created the following test circuit, assigned the > generated IBIS model to both buffers, set one buffer as inverted output. > [cid:part1.07090501.06090707@freescale.com] > > Problem: > In the image below the YELLOW waveform is what I saw and the PURPLE waveform > is what I expected to see. > [cid:part2.00080404.04020708@freescale.com] > YELLOW = IBIS model > PURPLE = Spice ( reference ) model > > Here is combined pullUp (yellow) and pullDown (green) IV curves (actually it > is spice curves from which IV tables were derived): > [cid:part3.05090108.02030307@freescale.com] > > Lets assume that simulator tries to find operational point for LVDS buffer > driving high. Then for the non-inverted buffer a point (Vp, Ip) will be > taken from pullUp table, for the inverted buffer a point (Vn, In) from > pullDown table, the following conditions should be satisfied: Ip = In, Vp - > Vn = Ip*50. On the image above it is seen that there are 2 points satisfying > the condition: Vp =~ 1.45V and Vp =~ 2.2V. Seems that something like that > happened during simulation and simulator got to the second point. (BTW, > there are 60 points for the region 0.9 - 1.6V and 10 points for the region > 1.6-2.5V in the IBIS model IV tables). > > Question: > What can be done to resolve this situation? Should IV tables or another IBIS > structures be modified and how? I am making ibis ver. 4.2 models. > > Thanks, > Andrey > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by > MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by > MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by > MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. > > - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - --------------040600090702030508090605 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------030608070309090803050501" - --------------030608070309090803050501 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Arpad,
In this case DC sweep is a series of independent DC solutions.

Tom,
You are right, Vcm is changing unexpectedly, I will investigate further why it is changing and how to control it.
Can you share how you generate LVDS models, how you control the inverted pin?
Is it appropriate way:
http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1225499
(c) http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1225499

Regards,
Andrey


On 09/19/2013 02:11 AM, Muranyi, Arpad wrote:
Just another question about generating the I-V data:

How fast are you sweeping the voltage when you measure the
current?  Is it in the ns, us, ms range?  The reason I am
asking is because if you sweep it too fast, you might actually
be measuring parasitic capacitance on the die (I=C*dV/dt)...

Thanks,

Arpad
===============================================================

- -----Original Message-----
From: Tom Dagostino [mailto:tom@teraspeed.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 4:19 PM
To: 'Babintsev Andrey-B13285'; Muranyi, Arpad; ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation issue

Andrey

I've tried this kind of extraction also. The curves looked much more CMOS
current source like than you are showing for the pulldown.  It still looks
like your feedback loop is in control of the driver and it is not happy with
Vcm.

Tom Dagostino

Teraspeed Labs
9999 SW Wilshire St.
Suite 102
Portland, OR 97225
USA

971-279-5325  Office
971-279-5326   FAX
503-430-1065  Cell

tom@teraspeed.com 
www.teraspeed.com 

Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
16 Stormy Brook Road 
Falmouth, ME 04105
401-284-1827


- -----Original Message-----
From: Babintsev Andrey-B13285 [mailto:B13285@freescale.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 12:57 PM
To: tom@teraspeed.com; 'Muranyi, Arpad'; ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation
issue

Arpad, Tom, 

Thank you for your responses. 
I used 50 Ohm because it is MLB interface. I called it LVDS to make it clear
that I was speaking about low swing differential signal. 
I inverted the curve polarity on the plot and made both of them ground
relative to make it convenient to compare source and sink currents. In the
IBIS models they were put with correct polarity, pullUp - Vdd relative, in
accordance with IBIS standard and IBIS cookbook. 
While DC sweep on the non-inverted output was done for IV curves extraction,
the inverted output was controlled by the voltage dependent voltage source
v=2*Vos-v(padp), Vos ~ 1.25V (depending on conditions).
Actually the issue was observed for slow and typ cases while for fast case
the models are in good agreement with spice models (Vmax, Vmin, Trise,
Tfall, Duty cycle matched  reference waveforms).

Regards,
Andrey
________________________________________
From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [owner-ibis-users@eda.org] on behalf of Tom
Dagostino [tom@teraspeed.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 10:39 PM
To: 'Muranyi, Arpad'; ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation
issue

Andrey

I've modeled a lot of LVDS buffers in the past and this is definitely the
strangest looking pulldown IV curve I've ever seen.  And as Arpad says it
does not at all look like a reasonable result.

First, why are you loading your LVDS buffer with a 50 Ohm differential
termination?  Most I have seen are looking for 100Ohms.

Have you inverted the pulldown's polarity?  I would also expect to see the
pulldown curve to have positive current between ground and Vdd.

LVDS buffers have a feedback loop in them so stabilize the Vcm of the
buffer.  Usually this only affect the pullup IV curve but sometimes only the
pulldown.  This makes extracting the IV characteristics of the controlled
device difficult.  The feedback is fighting the curve tracer that is
measuring the IV characteristics.  While you are doing the IV sweep you are
by definition changing Vcm and the feedback is trying to correct for this.

BTW, Ip = -In.  One is sourcing current and the other sinking.  The sourcing
should have negative currents and the sinking positive.

Tom Dagostino

Teraspeed Labs
9999 SW Wilshire St.
Suite 102
Portland, OR 97225
USA

971-279-5325  Office
971-279-5326   FAX
503-430-1065  Cell

tom@teraspeed.com<mailto:tom@teraspeed.com>
www.teraspeed.com<http://www.teraspeed.com/>

Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
16 Stormy Brook Road
Falmouth, ME 04105
401-284-1827

From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org [mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf
Of Muranyi, Arpad
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 8:31 AM
To: ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: RE: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation
issue

Andrey,

I am not sure that your PD I-V curve is correct.

First of all, it should have a positive sign, but its shape doesn't look
right either.

Can you describe how you generated these I-V curves?

Thanks,

Arpad
========================================================


From: owner-ibis-users@eda.org<mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org>
[mailto:owner-ibis-users@eda.org] On Behalf Of Andrey Babintsev
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 9:38 AM
To: ibis-users@eda.org<mailto:ibis-users@eda.org>
Subject: Re: [IBIS-Users] {Spam?} {Filename?} LVDS IBIS model - simulation
issue

Re-sending with updated attachment

Hi,

I am making IBIS models for LVDS (low voltage differential signal) IO
buffer.
To model an LVDS buffer I created the following test circuit, assigned the
generated IBIS model to both buffers, set one buffer as inverted output.
[cid:image001.png@01CEB462.5402D6F0]

Problem:
In the image below the YELLOW waveform is what I saw and the PURPLE waveform
is what I expected to see.
[cid:image002.png@01CEB462.5402D6F0]
YELLOW = IBIS model
PURPLE = Spice ( reference ) model

Here is combined pullUp (yellow) and pullDown (green) IV curves (actually it
is spice curves from which IV tables were derived):
[cid:image003.png@01CEB462.5402D6F0]

Lets assume that simulator tries to find operational point for LVDS buffer
driving high. Then for the non-inverted buffer a point (Vp, Ip) will be
taken from pullUp table, for the inverted buffer a point (Vn, In) from
pullDown table, the following conditions should be satisfied: Ip = In, Vp -
Vn = Ip*50. On the image above it is seen that there are 2 points satisfying
the condition: Vp =~  1.45V and Vp =~ 2.2V. Seems that something like that
happened during simulation and simulator got to the second point. (BTW,
there are 60 points for the region 0.9 - 1.6V and 10 points for the region
1.6-2.5V in the IBIS model IV tables).

Question:
What can be done to resolve this situation? Should IV tables or another IBIS
structures be modified and how? I am making ibis ver. 4.2 models.

Thanks,
Andrey



On 09/18/2013 06:33 PM, Andrey Babintsev wrote:

Warning: This message has had one or more attachments removed
(fail.min.png). Please read the "EDA-Attachment-Warning.txt" attachment(s)
for more information.
Hi,

I am making IBIS models for LVDS (low voltage differential signal) IO
buffer.
To model an LVDS buffer I created the following test circuit, assigned the
generated IBIS model to both buffers, set one buffer as inverted output.
[cid:part1.07090501.06090707@freescale.com]

Problem:
In the image below the YELLOW waveform is what I saw and the PURPLE waveform
is what I expected to see.
[cid:part2.00080404.04020708@freescale.com]
YELLOW = IBIS model
PURPLE = Spice ( reference ) model

Here is combined pullUp (yellow) and pullDown (green) IV curves (actually it
is spice curves from which IV tables were derived):
[cid:part3.05090108.02030307@freescale.com]

Lets assume that simulator tries to find operational point for LVDS buffer
driving high. Then for the non-inverted buffer a point (Vp, Ip) will be
taken from pullUp table, for the inverted buffer a point (Vn, In) from
pullDown table, the following conditions should be satisfied: Ip = In, Vp -
Vn = Ip*50. On the image above it is seen that there are 2 points satisfying
the condition: Vp =~  1.45V and Vp =~ 2.2V. Seems that something like that
happened during simulation and simulator got to the second point. (BTW,
there are 60 points for the region 0.9 - 1.6V and 10 points for the region
1.6-2.5V in the IBIS model IV tables).

Question:
What can be done to resolve this situation? Should IV tables or another IBIS
structures be modified and how? I am making ibis ver. 4.2 models.

Thanks,
Andrey

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Abhishek, There is code at http://www.eda.org/ibis/accuracy/ to compile "ACK", a utility written in C to calculate the IBIS FOM for two input datasets. However, I have to say that since some scripting might be needed to produce files in the format it recognizes, in my opinion it takes not much more scripting at all to implement the FOM. Possibly the most challenging part is reconciling the differences between how the FOM is described in the Accuracy Handbook, the ACK user guide, and the ACK code itself. The code is probably the best reference, although it belies some uncertainty about how the denominator of the equation should be calculated, leaving a hook for users to enter their own numbers directly on the command line, if they don't like what ack calculates. Mike On 11/16/2013 1:26 AM, abhishek goswami wrote: > Hi, > I need to implement FOM(Figure of Merit) for IBIS File. Do we have any > tool which do FOM in IBIS File or any code level implementation in C++ > info will also helpful for me > > > > Thanks > Abhishek Goswami > Phone No -07829580867/9962270999 > Skype : abhishekgoswami1 > > > On Friday, 15 November 2013 8:16 AM, abhishek goswami > wrote: > Hi, > I need to implement FOM(Figure of Merit) for IBIS File. Do we have any > tool which do FOM in IBIS File or any code level implementation in C++ > info will also helpful for me > > > Thanks > Abhishek Goswami > Bangalore > Phone No -07829580867/9962270999 > Skype : abhishekgoswami1 > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by *MailScanner* , and is > believed to be clean. - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. - --------------040807090101040501010307 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Abhishek,

There is code at http://www.eda.org/ibis/accuracy/ to compile "ACK", a utility written in C to calculate the IBIS FOM for two input datasets. However, I have to say that since some scripting might be needed to produce files in the format it recognizes, in my opinion it takes not much more scripting at all to implement the FOM.

Possibly the most challenging part is reconciling the differences between how the FOM is described in the Accuracy Handbook, the ACK user guide, and the ACK code itself. The code is probably the best reference, although it belies some uncertainty about how the denominator of the equation should be calculated, leaving a hook for users to enter their own numbers directly on the command line, if they don't like what ack calculates.

Mike
On 11/16/2013 1:26 AM, abhishek goswami wrote:
Hi,
I need to implement FOM(Figure of Merit) for IBIS File. Do we have any tool which do FOM in IBIS File or any code level implementation in C++ info will also helpful for me
 

 


Thanks
Abhishek Goswami
Phone No -07829580867/9962270999
Skype : abhishekgoswami1


On Friday, 15 November 2013 8:16 AM, abhishek goswami <zeal_goswami@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi,
I need to implement FOM(Figure of Merit) for IBIS File. Do we have any tool which do FOM in IBIS File or any code level implementation in C++ info will also helpful for me
 


Thanks
Abhishek Goswami
Bangalore
Phone No -07829580867/9962270999
Skype : abhishekgoswami1



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