From owner-ibis Thu Feb 3 03:15:05 2000 Received: from bastion.power-x.co.uk (bastion.power-x.co.uk [62.232.19.201]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id DAA09813 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 03:15:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from newhey (newhey.px.uk.com [172.16.18.44]) by bastion.power-x.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA19545 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:13:50 GMT Reply-To: From: "Chris Potts" To: Subject: Request for IBIS model for 74LS series. Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:13:49 -0000 Message-ID: <000401bf6e37$bf9e9140$2c1210ac@px.uk.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Could anyone provide me with an IBIS model for the 74LS series cmos devices. Any manufacturer, preferably including input, output, bi-directional and tristate output models would be great. Thanks in advance. Chris Potts Mr Chris Potts BEng(Hons). Design Engineer PowerX Ltd Tel: +44 0161 286 2000 ext 201 Fax: +44 0161 286 2202 E-Mail: chrisp@px.uk.com From owner-ibis Thu Feb 3 04:31:49 2000 Received: from agni.wipinfo.soft.net (agni.wipinfo.soft.net [164.164.6.20]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id EAA09984 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 04:31:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from vayu.wipinfo.soft.net (vayu [192.168.200.170]) by agni.wipinfo.soft.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07978 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:59:09 +0500 (GMT) Received: from abyss.wipinfo.soft.net (root@abyss.wipinfo.soft.net [192.168.2.10]) by vayu.wipinfo.soft.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22254 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:44:50 +0500 (GMT) Received: from Quartus ([192.168.253.133]) by abyss.wipinfo.soft.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA06644 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:53:18 +0530 Message-ID: <00b701bf6e41$013f04a0$85fda8c0@Quartus.wipinfo.soft.net> From: "Bharath Y" To: Subject: IBIS models Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:50:02 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF6E6F.18C5BAA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF6E6F.18C5BAA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hello, Can anyone send me the IBIS models for the following 1. SCN2681AC1A44( from PHILIPS) 2. UPD4516161G5-A10-7JF ( from NEC) 3. LT1085CT - 3.3 ( LINEAR TECHNOLOGY) 4. T1008 5. MEZZ_CONN 179030 - 4 6. CDC208 (TEXAS INSTRUMENTS) 7. CDC340 (TEXAS INSTRUMENTS) Please it is required very urgently thanks in advance regards, bharath *************************************************************************= * BHARATH KUMAR .Y Engineer VLSI/System design-Global R&D Solutions Wipro Technologies 26, Hosur Main Road Bommanahalli Bangalore-560068 Tel :91-80-5722293/96 Ext:5421 E-mail :bharath.kumar@wipro.com www.wipro.com The World's First SEI CMM Level 5 Software Services Company *************************************************************************= ********* ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF6E6F.18C5BAA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
hello,
 
Can anyone send me the IBIS models = for the=20 following
 
1. SCN2681AC1A44( from PHILIPS)
2. UPD4516161G5-A10-7JF ( from NEC)
3. LT1085CT - 3.3 ( LINEAR TECHNOLOGY)
4. T1008
5. MEZZ_CONN 179030 - 4
6. CDC208 (TEXAS INSTRUMENTS)
7. CDC340 (TEXAS INSTRUMENTS)
 
Please it is required very urgently
 
thanks in advance
regards,
bharath
 
 
 
****************************************************************= **********
BHARATH=20 KUMAR  .Y
Engineer VLSI/System design-Global R&D = Solutions
Wipro=20 Technologies
26, Hosur Main = Road
Bommanahalli
Bangalore-560068
Tel=20 :91-80-5722293/96    Ext:5421
E-mail :bharath.kumar@wipro.com
www.wipro.com
The World's First SEI = CMM Level=20 5 Software Services=20 Company
**************************************************************= ********************
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF6E6F.18C5BAA0-- From owner-ibis Thu Feb 3 15:59:48 2000 Received: from mail-srv1.micron.com (masquerade.micron.com [137.201.242.130]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA13029 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:59:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-srv1.micron.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail-srv1.micron.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA19898 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:57:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from ntxsing01.sing.micron.com (ntxsing01.sing.micron.com [10.160.129.21]) by mail-srv1.micron.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA19859; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:57:41 -0700 (MST) Received: by ntxsing01.sing.micron.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 07:57:43 +0800 Message-ID: <356BECDFCC89D21182080008C71E417301946582@ntxsing02.sing.micron.com> From: subas To: "'Bharath Y'" , ibis-users@eda.org Subject: RE: IBIS models Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 07:57:30 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, I think the best way to get these model is to ask the vendors themselves. They are supposed to provide the either SPICE or IBIS model to the customer and most of them do it anyway. Or you can try IBIS website for some available models. With best regards, Subas -----Original Message----- From: Bharath Y [mailto:bharath.kumar@wipro.com] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 8:20 PM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: IBIS models hello, Can anyone send me the IBIS models for the following 1. SCN2681AC1A44( from PHILIPS) 2. UPD4516161G5-A10-7JF ( from NEC) 3. LT1085CT - 3.3 ( LINEAR TECHNOLOGY) 4. T1008 5. MEZZ_CONN 179030 - 4 6. CDC208 (TEXAS INSTRUMENTS) 7. CDC340 (TEXAS INSTRUMENTS) Please it is required very urgently thanks in advance regards, bharath ************************************************************************** BHARATH KUMAR .Y Engineer VLSI/System design-Global R&D Solutions Wipro Technologies 26, Hosur Main Road Bommanahalli Bangalore-560068 Tel :91-80-5722293/96 Ext:5421 E-mail : bharath.kumar@wipro.com www.wipro.com The World's First SEI CMM Level 5 Software Services Company **************************************************************************** ****** From owner-ibis Thu Feb 3 20:32:37 2000 Received: from agni.wipinfo.soft.net (agni.wipinfo.soft.net [164.164.6.20]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id UAA13888 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 20:32:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from vayu.wipinfo.soft.net (vayu [192.168.200.170]) by agni.wipinfo.soft.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25496; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:58:29 +0500 (GMT) Received: from abyss.wipinfo.soft.net (root@abyss.wipinfo.soft.net [192.168.2.10]) by vayu.wipinfo.soft.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00876; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:59:41 +0500 (GMT) Received: from Quartus ([192.168.253.133]) by abyss.wipinfo.soft.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA31832; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:08:07 +0530 Message-ID: <009d01bf6ec9$3c681840$85fda8c0@Quartus.wipinfo.soft.net> From: "Bharath Y" To: "subas" , Subject: Re: IBIS models Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:04:58 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 hello, I have already checked on website for the mentioned parts. they are not available there......... Please if anyone finds the below mentioned Part's IBIS models, do send it to me. thanks and regards, bharath -----Original Message----- From: subas To: 'Bharath Y' ; ibis-users@eda.org Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 6:34 AM Subject: RE: IBIS models >Hi, > >I think the best way to get these model is to ask the vendors themselves. >They are supposed to provide the either SPICE or IBIS model to the customer >and most of them do it anyway. Or you can try IBIS website for some >available models. > >With best regards, >Subas > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bharath Y [mailto:bharath.kumar@wipro.com] >Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 8:20 PM >To: ibis-users@eda.org >Subject: IBIS models > > >hello, > >Can anyone send me the IBIS models for the following > >1. SCN2681AC1A44( from PHILIPS) >2. UPD4516161G5-A10-7JF ( from NEC) >3. LT1085CT - 3.3 ( LINEAR TECHNOLOGY) >4. T1008 >5. MEZZ_CONN 179030 - 4 >6. CDC208 (TEXAS INSTRUMENTS) >7. CDC340 (TEXAS INSTRUMENTS) > >Please it is required very urgently > >thanks in advance >regards, >bharath > > > >************************************************************************** >BHARATH KUMAR .Y >Engineer VLSI/System design-Global R&D Solutions >Wipro Technologies >26, Hosur Main Road >Bommanahalli >Bangalore-560068 >Tel :91-80-5722293/96 Ext:5421 >E-mail : bharath.kumar@wipro.com >www.wipro.com >The World's First SEI CMM Level 5 Software Services Company >*************************************************************************** * >****** > From owner-ibis Wed Feb 9 14:03:50 2000 Received: from serverworks.com (mailhost.rccorp.com [207.214.102.39]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA09774 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from markn (ws-207-214-102-166.rccorp.com [207.214.102.166]) by serverworks.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA06660 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:57:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.20000209140213.00a20100@harmony> X-Sender: markn@harmony X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 14:02:14 +0000 To: ibis-users@eda.org From: Mark Nass Subject: 2 stage driver Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, I need to make an IBIS model of a buffer that has a two stage pullup and pulldown. The 2nd stage is delayed. Does anybody know how I put this in an IBIS model? Thanks, Mark Nass From owner-ibis Wed Feb 9 21:01:57 2000 Received: from mailgate.Cadence.COM (mailgate.Cadence.COM [158.140.2.1]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id VAA10948 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 21:01:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from zip.Cadence.COM (zip.Cadence.COM [158.140.103.36]) by mailgate.Cadence.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA11840 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 21:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from cadence.com (annex-chelmsford-20 [158.140.101.210]) by zip.Cadence.COM (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA06150 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:00:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38A2462C.F4105D71@cadence.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:01:32 -0500 From: Mike LaBonte Organization: Cadence Design Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: 2 stage driver References: <3.0.32.20000209140213.00a20100@harmony> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Received: By mailgate.Cadence.COM as VAA11840 at Wed Feb 9 21:00:47 2000 Mark, Look at the [Driver Schedule] section of the IBIS specification. You can have multiple stages driving, each with it's own start delay relative to the trigger of the overall buffer. Mike Mark Nass wrote: > > Hi, > > I need to make an IBIS model of a buffer that has a two stage pullup and > pulldown. > The 2nd stage is delayed. Does anybody know how I put this in an IBIS model? > > Thanks, > Mark Nass From owner-ibis Tue Feb 15 14:31:48 2000 Received: from bg-sentry.tundra.com (tundra.com [207.236.57.98]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id OAA09575 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:31:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from appltree.tundra.com by bg-sentry.tundra.com via smtpd (for server.eda.org [171.64.101.101]) with SMTP; 15 Feb 2000 22:30:36 UT Received: from pcsconstable (dhcp-42 [192.168.247.42]) by tundra.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA00686 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:30:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000c01bf7804$42347680$2af7a8c0@tundra.com> From: "Steve Constable" To: Subject: C_comp confusion Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:30:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF77DA.593080B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF77DA.593080B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm confused about C_comp. All of the data tables in an IBIS file are = ordered as TYP, MIN then MAX. But it looks like C_comp is ordered as TYP, MAX then MIN....that's were = the confusion is. The reason I think C_comp is ordered differently is that the MAX should = have the smallest capacitance associated with it _not_ the greatest. In = the example below (taken from the 21152_aa.ibs model from Intel), the = C_comp has a max value of 0.50pF, this will slow down the I/O buffer = (compared to the TYP case of 0.40pF), this contradicts what the rest of = the model is trying achieve when the simulator is referring to the MAX = columns (i.e. MAXimize speed). Likewise I think the C_comp_min should be 0.50pF NOT what the model = indicates as 0.30pF. And the C_comp_max should be 0.30pF NOT 0.50pF as the model indicates. Just in case I've not made myself all that clear....below I have added a = line to the original C_comp line: | TYP MIN MAX [Temperature Range] 25.00 100.00 0.000 [Voltage Range] 3.30V 3.00V 3.60V C_comp 0.40pF 0.30pF 0.50pF | should be: C_comp 0.40pF 0.50pF 0.30pF I.E swap the 0.30pF with the 0.50pF...... I've checked with several different models and they all seem to have = C_comp as TYP,MAX,MIN Even the IBIS spec has the MAX value as the largest and not the smallest = capacitance...as below: Vref =3D 0 |Timing specification test load voltage | variable typ min max C_comp 12.0pF 10.0pF 15.0pF If that's the way the spec has it, then I guess everyone will follow the = spec, but I'm still confused as to why the MAX parameter has the largest = capacitance when the objective of using MAX is to get the fastest = switching time possible..... Any ideas or suggestions....????? Steve Constable Tundra Semiconductor =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF77DA.593080B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm confused about C_comp. All of the = data tables=20 in an IBIS file are ordered as TYP, MIN then MAX.
But it looks like C_comp is ordered as = TYP, MAX=20 then MIN....that's were the confusion is.
The reason I think C_comp is ordered = differently is=20 that the MAX should have the smallest capacitance associated with it = _not_ the=20 greatest. In the example below (taken from the 21152_aa.ibs model from = Intel),=20 the C_comp has a max value of 0.50pF, this will slow down the I/O = buffer=20 (compared to the TYP case of 0.40pF), this contradicts what the rest of = the=20 model is trying achieve when the simulator is referring to the MAX = columns=20 (i.e. MAXimize speed).
Likewise I think the C_comp_min should = be 0.50pF=20 NOT what the model indicates as 0.30pF.
And the C_comp_max should be 0.30pF NOT = 0.50pF as=20 the model indicates.
 
Just in case I've not made myself all = that=20 clear....below I have added a line to the original C_comp=20 line:
 
|          &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;           =20 TYP          =20 MIN           = MAX
[Temperature=20 Range]      25.00    &n= bsp;    100.00      &nb= sp; 0.000
[Voltage=20 Range]           &= nbsp; 3.30V         3.0= 0V        3.60V
C_comp         &nbs= p;            = ; =20 0.40pF       0.30pF   &= nbsp;   0.50pF
| should be: C_comp      0.40pF &nbs= p;     0.50pF      = ;=20 0.30pF
I.E=20 swap the 0.30pF with the 0.50pF......
 
I've checked with several different models and they all seem to = have=20 C_comp as TYP,MAX,MIN
Even the IBIS spec has the MAX value as the largest and not the = smallest=20 capacitance...as below:
Vref =3D=20 0            =       =20 |Timing specification test load voltage
|=20 variable     =20 typ           &nbs= p;=20 min           &nbs= p;=20 max
C_comp     =20 12.0pF      =20 10.0pF        15.0pF

If that's the way the spec has it, then I guess = everyone will=20 follow the spec, but I'm still confused as to why the MAX=20 parameter has the largest capacitance when the objective of using = MAX is to=20 get the fastest switching time possible.....
 
Any ideas = or=20 suggestions....?????
 
 
Steve=20 Constable
Tundra=20 Semiconductor
 
          &nbs= p;            = ;        
   =20

 
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF77DA.593080B0-- From owner-ibis Tue Feb 15 15:01:51 2000 Received: from intermailhost.viewlogic.com (intermailhost.viewlogic.com [139.181.6.17]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA09671 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:01:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.viewlogic.com (mailhost.viewlogic.com [139.181.3.35]) by intermailhost.viewlogic.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13075 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:00:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from taurus.camarillo.viewlogic.com (taurus.camarillo.viewlogic.com [139.181.194.20]) by mailhost.viewlogic.com (8.8.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16381 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:00:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc-chrisr (pc-chrisr.camarillo.viewlogic.com [139.181.194.170]) by taurus.camarillo.viewlogic.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA28007 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:59:08 -0800 (PST) From: "Chris Rokusek" To: Subject: RE: C_comp confusion Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:02:07 -0800 Message-ID: <003701bf7808$aef49800$aac2b58b@pc-chrisr.camarillo.viewlogic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01BF77C5.A0D15800" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <000c01bf7804$42347680$2af7a8c0@tundra.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BF77C5.A0D15800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve, To my knowledge, an IBIS file defines three independently selectable process points: 1) C_comp. 2) VI/VT/Ramp data. 3) Package data. The spec only says that VI data at a TYP/MIN/MAX must match the VT and RAMP data at the same process point. The other groups may be chosen independently. You're right, to get the fastest you need MAX VI/VT/Ramp, MIN Pkg, and Min C_comp. Chris Rokusek Viewlogic Systems -----Original Message----- From: Steve Constable [mailto:steve@tundra.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 2:30 PM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: C_comp confusion I'm confused about C_comp. All of the data tables in an IBIS file are ordered as TYP, MIN then MAX. But it looks like C_comp is ordered as TYP, MAX then MIN....that's were the confusion is. The reason I think C_comp is ordered differently is that the MAX should have the smallest capacitance associated with it _not_ the greatest. In the example below (taken from the 21152_aa.ibs model from Intel), the C_comp has a max value of 0.50pF, this will slow down the I/O buffer (compared to the TYP case of 0.40pF), this contradicts what the rest of the model is trying achieve when the simulator is referring to the MAX columns (i.e. MAXimize speed). Likewise I think the C_comp_min should be 0.50pF NOT what the model indicates as 0.30pF. And the C_comp_max should be 0.30pF NOT 0.50pF as the model indicates. Just in case I've not made myself all that clear....below I have added a line to the original C_comp line: | TYP MIN MAX [Temperature Range] 25.00 100.00 0.000 [Voltage Range] 3.30V 3.00V 3.60V C_comp 0.40pF 0.30pF 0.50pF | should be: C_comp 0.40pF 0.50pF 0.30pF I.E swap the 0.30pF with the 0.50pF...... I've checked with several different models and they all seem to have C_comp as TYP,MAX,MIN Even the IBIS spec has the MAX value as the largest and not the smallest capacitance...as below: Vref = 0 |Timing specification test load voltage | variable typ min max C_comp 12.0pF 10.0pF 15.0pF If that's the way the spec has it, then I guess everyone will follow the spec, but I'm still confused as to why the MAX parameter has the largest capacitance when the objective of using MAX is to get the fastest switching time possible..... Any ideas or suggestions....????? Steve Constable Tundra Semiconductor ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BF77C5.A0D15800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steve,
 
To my=20 knowledge, an IBIS file defines three independently selectable process=20 points:
 
1)=20 C_comp.
2)=20 VI/VT/Ramp data.
3)=20 Package data.
 
The=20 spec only says that VI data at a TYP/MIN/MAX must match the VT and RAMP = data at=20 the same process point.  The other groups may be chosen=20 independently.
 
You're=20 right, to get the fastest you need MAX VI/VT/Ramp, MIN Pkg, and Min=20 C_comp.
 
Chris=20 Rokusek
Viewlogic Systems
 
 
 
 -----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Steve Constable [mailto:steve@tundra.com]
Sent: Tuesday, = February 15,=20 2000 2:30 PM
To: ibis-users@eda.org
Subject: C_comp=20 confusion

I'm confused about C_comp. All of the = data tables=20 in an IBIS file are ordered as TYP, MIN then MAX.
But it looks like C_comp is ordered = as TYP, MAX=20 then MIN....that's were the confusion is.
The reason I think C_comp is ordered = differently=20 is that the MAX should have the smallest capacitance associated with = it _not_=20 the greatest. In the example below (taken from the 21152_aa.ibs model = from=20 Intel), the C_comp has a max value of 0.50pF, this will slow down = the I/O=20 buffer (compared to the TYP case of 0.40pF), this contradicts what the = rest of=20 the model is trying achieve when the simulator is referring to = the MAX=20 columns (i.e. MAXimize speed).
Likewise I think the C_comp_min = should be 0.50pF=20 NOT what the model indicates as 0.30pF.
And the C_comp_max should be 0.30pF = NOT 0.50pF as=20 the model indicates.
 
Just in case I've not made myself all = that=20 clear....below I have added a line to the original C_comp=20 line:
 
|          &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;           =20 TYP          =20 MIN          =20 MAX
[Temperature=20 = Range]      25.00    &n= bsp;    100.00      &nb= sp; 0.000
[Voltage=20 = Range]           &= nbsp; 3.30V         3.0= 0V        3.60V
C_comp         &nbs= p;            = ; =20 = 0.40pF       0.30pF   &= nbsp;   0.50pF
| should be: C_comp      0.40pF &nbs= p;     0.50pF      = ;=20 0.30pF
I.E swap the 0.30pF with the = 0.50pF......
 
I've checked with several different models and they all seem = to have=20 C_comp as TYP,MAX,MIN
Even the IBIS spec has the MAX value as the largest and not the = smallest=20 capacitance...as below:
Vref =3D=20 = 0            =       =20 |Timing specification test load voltage
|=20 variable     =20 = typ           &nbs= p;=20 = min           &nbs= p;=20 max
C_comp     =20 12.0pF      =20 10.0pF        15.0pF

If that's the way the spec has it, then I guess = everyone=20 will follow the spec, but I'm still confused as to why the MAX=20 parameter has the largest capacitance when the objective of using = MAX is=20 to get the fastest switching time possible.....
 
Any ideas = or=20 suggestions....?????
 
 
Steve=20 Constable
Tundra=20 Semiconductor
 
          &nbs= p;            = ;        
   =20

 
<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BF77C5.A0D15800-- From owner-ibis Tue Feb 15 15:31:04 2000 Received: from mailhost.avanticorp.com (uucp@mailhost.avanticorp.com [207.220.204.13]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA09811 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:31:03 -0800 (PST) From: nikolai@avanticorp.com Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mailhost.avanticorp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA01912; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from arcs100.svd.avanticorp.com(172.16.0.170) via SMTP by shamu.avanticorp.com, id smtpdAAA0Goj6P; Tue Feb 15 15:29:45 2000 Received: from av20121.svd.avanticorp.com (av20121.svd.avanticorp.com [172.16.20.121]) by arcs100.svd.avanticorp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA18564; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:28:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nikolai@localhost) by av20121.svd.avanticorp.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) id PAA18783; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:29:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:29:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200002152329.PAA18783@av20121.svd.avanticorp.com> To: ibis-users@eda.org, steve@tundra.com Subject: Re: C_comp confusion Content-Type: X-sun-attachment ---------- X-Sun-Data-Type: text X-Sun-Data-Description: text X-Sun-Data-Name: text X-Sun-Charset: us-ascii X-Sun-Content-Lines: 58 Hi, I guess, this is what the spec says about how to place data. MIN means minimum capacitance (not the fastest waveform), etc. It is up to the simulator to know how to use the data. For example, if you specify parameter FAST in a simulator, it will take the value MIN for C_comp. Simulator's manuals should mention this. Nikolai Bannnov Avanti Corporation :-) From owner-ibis@server.eda.org Tue Feb 15 15:18 PST 2000 :-) From: "Steve Constable" :-) To: :-) Subject: C_comp confusion :-) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:30:27 -0500 :-) MIME-Version: 1.0 :-) X-Priority: 3 :-) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal :-) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 :-) :-) I'm confused about C_comp. All of the data tables in an IBIS file are ordered as TYP, MIN then MAX. :-) But it looks like C_comp is ordered as TYP, MAX then MIN....that's were the confusion is. :-) The reason I think C_comp is ordered differently is that the MAX should have the smallest capacitance associated with it _not_ the greatest. In the example below (taken from the 21152_aa.ibs model from Intel), the C_comp has a max value of 0.50pF, this will slow down the I/O buffer (compared to the TYP case of 0.40pF), this contradicts what the rest of the model is trying achieve when the simulator is referring to the MAX columns (i.e. MAXimize speed). :-) Likewise I think the C_comp_min should be 0.50pF NOT what the model indicates as 0.30pF. :-) And the C_comp_max should be 0.30pF NOT 0.50pF as the model indicates. :-) :-) Just in case I've not made myself all that clear....below I have added a line to the original C_comp line: :-) :-) | TYP MIN MAX :-) [Temperature Range] 25.00 100.00 0.000 :-) [Voltage Range] 3.30V 3.00V 3.60V :-) C_comp 0.40pF 0.30pF 0.50pF :-) | should be: C_comp 0.40pF 0.50pF 0.30pF :-) I.E swap the 0.30pF with the 0.50pF...... :-) :-) I've checked with several different models and they all seem to have C_comp as TYP,MAX,MIN :-) Even the IBIS spec has the MAX value as the largest and not the smallest capacitance...as below: :-) Vref = 0 |Timing specification test load voltage :-) | variable typ min max :-) C_comp 12.0pF 10.0pF 15.0pF :-) :-) :-) If that's the way the spec has it, then I guess everyone will follow the spec, but I'm still confused as to why the MAX parameter has the largest capacitance when the objective of using MAX is to get the fastest switching time possible..... :-) :-) Any ideas or suggestions....????? :-) :-) :-) Steve Constable :-) Tundra Semiconductor :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) ---------- X-Sun-Data-Type: html X-Sun-Encoding-Info: quoted-printable X-Sun-Content-Lines: 125
I'm confused about C_comp. All of the = data tables=20 in an IBIS file are ordered as TYP, MIN then MAX.
But it looks like C_comp is ordered as = TYP, MAX=20 then MIN....that's were the confusion is.
The reason I think C_comp is ordered = differently is=20 that the MAX should have the smallest capacitance associated with it = _not_ the=20 greatest. In the example below (taken from the 21152_aa.ibs model from = Intel),=20 the C_comp has a max value of 0.50pF, this will slow down the I/O = buffer=20 (compared to the TYP case of 0.40pF), this contradicts what the rest of = the=20 model is trying achieve when the simulator is referring to the MAX = columns=20 (i.e. MAXimize speed).
Likewise I think the C_comp_min should = be 0.50pF=20 NOT what the model indicates as 0.30pF.
And the C_comp_max should be 0.30pF NOT = 0.50pF as=20 the model indicates.
 
Just in case I've not made myself all = that=20 clear....below I have added a line to the original C_comp=20 line:
 
|          &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;           =20 TYP          =20 MIN           = MAX
[Temperature=20 Range]      25.00    &n= bsp;    100.00      &nb= sp; 0.000
[Voltage=20 Range]           &= nbsp; 3.30V         3.0= 0V        3.60V
C_comp         &nbs= p;            = ; =20 0.40pF       0.30pF   &= nbsp;   0.50pF
| should be: C_comp      0.40pF &nbs= p;     0.50pF      = ;=20 0.30pF
I.E=20 swap the 0.30pF with the 0.50pF......
 
I've checked with several different models and they all seem to = have=20 C_comp as TYP,MAX,MIN
Even the IBIS spec has the MAX value as the largest and not the = smallest=20 capacitance...as below:
Vref =3D=20 0            =       =20 |Timing specification test load voltage
|=20 variable     =20 typ           &nbs= p;=20 min           &nbs= p;=20 max
C_comp     =20 12.0pF      =20 10.0pF        15.0pF

If that's the way the spec has it, then I guess = everyone will=20 follow the spec, but I'm still confused as to why the MAX=20 parameter has the largest capacitance when the objective of using = MAX is to=20 get the fastest switching time possible.....
 
Any ideas = or=20 suggestions....?????
 
 
Steve=20 Constable
Tundra=20 Semiconductor
 
          &nbs= p;            = ;        
   =20

 
From owner-ibis Tue Feb 15 20:30:21 2000 Received: from relay1.wv.mentorg.com (relay1.mentorg.com [192.94.38.42]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id UAA10669 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:30:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from exgw.wv.mentorg.com by relay1.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.40F) id UAA10929; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com by exgw.wv.mentorg.com (8.8.8/CF5.33R) id UAA19062; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <19KRXYLZ>; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:23:50 -0800 Message-ID: <2179BC5B6583D311B44700508B4414691B89B0@svr-orw-exc-02.wv.mentorg.com> From: "Dunbar, Tony" To: "'ibis_users@eda.org'" Subject: RE: C_comp confusion Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:23:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Steve, I think you are, perhaps, being misled by a mistake or a misinterpretation on the part of the developer of the example IBIS file you refer to. It is normal, in my experience, that the C_comp parameter arguments should be listed in the order of the actual capacitance value to match typ, min, max. This is how it is in your original C_comp line in your example lines below. How each is used should be set by functionality in the simulation tool that you use when it comes to defining "Corners" and "Corner Cases". For example, a certain corner will be defined to use "min C_comp" or "max C_comp", as appropriate. The one parameter that does follow your reasoning (which, by the way, is entirely plausible - but this is a spec we are dealing with!) is [Temperature Range]. This is refelected in your example lines. The arguments to this parameter are intended to reflect the value which gives rise to the fastest/slowest, strongest/weakest characteristics in the V/I and V/T tables which follow in the [Model] description. Best regards, Tony Dunbar tony_dunbar@mentor.com -----Original Message----- From: Steve Constable [mailto:steve@tundra.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 4:30 PM To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: C_comp confusion I'm confused about C_comp. All of the data tables in an IBIS file are ordered as TYP, MIN then MAX. But it looks like C_comp is ordered as TYP, MAX then MIN....that's were the confusion is. The reason I think C_comp is ordered differently is that the MAX should have the smallest capacitance associated with it _not_ the greatest. In the example below (taken from the 21152_aa.ibs model from Intel), the C_comp has a max value of 0.50pF, this will slow down the I/O buffer (compared to the TYP case of 0.40pF), this contradicts what the rest of the model is trying achieve when the simulator is referring to the MAX columns (i.e. MAXimize speed). Likewise I think the C_comp_min should be 0.50pF NOT what the model indicates as 0.30pF. And the C_comp_max should be 0.30pF NOT 0.50pF as the model indicates. Just in case I've not made myself all that clear....below I have added a line to the original C_comp line: | TYP MIN MAX [Temperature Range] 25.00 100.00 0.000 [Voltage Range] 3.30V 3.00V 3.60V C_comp 0.40pF 0.30pF 0.50pF | should be: C_comp 0.40pF 0.50pF 0.30pF I.E swap the 0.30pF with the 0.50pF...... I've checked with several different models and they all seem to have C_comp as TYP,MAX,MIN Even the IBIS spec has the MAX value as the largest and not the smallest capacitance...as below: Vref = 0 |Timing specification test load voltage | variable typ min max C_comp 12.0pF 10.0pF 15.0pF If that's the way the spec has it, then I guess everyone will follow the spec, but I'm still confused as to why the MAX parameter has the largest capacitance when the objective of using MAX is to get the fastest switching time possible..... Any ideas or suggestions....????? Steve Constable Tundra Semiconductor From owner-ibis Fri Feb 18 13:02:07 2000 Received: from ganymede.or.intel.com (ganymede.or.intel.com [134.134.248.3]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA19162; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:02:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from SMTP (orsmsxvs01-1.jf.intel.com [192.168.65.200]) by ganymede.or.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.19 2000/01/29 00:15:43 dmccart Exp $) with SMTP id NAA15612; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:00:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from orsmsx28.jf.intel.com ([192.168.70.28]) by 192.168.70.200 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:00:53 0000 (GMT) Received: by orsmsx28.jf.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:00:51 -0800 Message-ID: <7FD5C79AD680D211AC4100A0C96B501C04069A3F@orsmsx49.jf.intel.com> From: "Peters, Stephen" To: "'ibis@eda.org'" , "'ibis-users@eda.org'" Subject: Bird 62.3 -- Enhanced Specification of Receiver Thresholds Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:00:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Hello All: In response to Bob Ross's comments I have updated Bird 62 to 62.3. In brief, the subparameter Input_ref_supply has been changed to Reference_supply and the list of allowable arguments has been expanded. Also, to address Bob's concern about specifing differential recievers, I've added four new subparameters specifically for this case. These parameters specificy difference voltage and the minimum and maximum allowable input cross points when switching. Please read and be prepared to discuss this BIRD at the next phone conference. Regards, Stephen Peters Intel Corp. ====================== Buffer Issue Resolution Document (BIRD) BIRD ID#: 62.3 ISSUE TITLE: Enhanced Specification of Receiver Thresholds REQUESTER: DC Sessions (Philips), Stephen Peters, Richard Mellitz, Arpad Muranyi (Intel Corp). DATE SUBMITTED: Aug 24, 1999, Dec 28, 1999, Jan 6, 2000, Feb 18, 2000 DATE ACCEPTED BY IBIS OPEN FORUM: **************************************************************************** *** **************************************************************************** *** STATEMENT OF THE ISSUE: When specifying receiver input thresholds the current specification allows only the traditional DC derived Vinh and Vinl parameters. These two parameters are no longer adequate for describing receivers used for high speed designs. This BIRD proposes four new input switching threshold parameters: Vinh_ac, Vinh_dc, Vinl_ac, Vinl_dc. These parameters are referenced to an reference point Vth, and this reference is allowed to vary with variations in a supply. **************************************************************************** *** STATEMENT OF THE RESOLVED SPECIFICATIONS: 1) The following new keyword is defined and placed in the specification just below the [Model Spec] keyword. |=========================================================================== == | Keyword: [Receiver Thresholds] | Required: No | Sub-Params: Vth, Vth_min, Vth_max, Vinh_ac, Vinh_dc, Vinl_ac, Vinl_dc, | Vth_sensitivity, Reference_supply, Vcross_min, Vcross_max, | Vdiff_ac, Vdiff_dc | Description: The [Receiver Thresholds] keyword defines both a set of | receiver input thresholds as well as their sensitivity to | variations in a referenced supply. The subparameters are | defined as follows: | | Vth, Vth_min and Vth_max is the ideal input threshold voltage | at which the output of a digital logic receiver changes state. | Vth is the nominal input threshold voltage under the voltage, | temperature and process conditions that define 'typ'. Vth_min | is the minimum input threshold voltage at 'typ' conditions | while Vth_max is the maximum input threshold voltage at 'typ' | conditions. | | Vinh_ac is the voltage that a low-to-high going input waveform | must reach in order to guarantee that the receiver's output | has changed state. In other words, reaching Vinh_ac is | sufficient to guarantee a receiver state change. Vinh_ac is | expressed as an offset from Vth. | | Vinh_dc is the voltage that an input waveform must remain | above (more positive than) in order to guarantee that a | receiver output will NOT change state. Vinh_dc is expressed | as an offset from Vth. | | Vinl_ac is the voltage that a high-to-low going input waveform | must reach in order to guarantee that the receiver's output | has changed state. In other words, reaching Vinl_ac is | sufficient to guarantee a receiver state change. Vinl_ac | is expressed as an offset from Vth. | | Vinl_dc is the voltage that an input waveform must remain below | (more negative than) in order to guarantee that a receiver's | output will NOT change state. Vinh_dc is expressed as a | offset from Vth. | | Vth_sensitivity is a unit less number that specifies how Vth | varies with respect to the supply voltage defined by the | Reference_supply subparameter. Vth_sensitivity is defined | as: | | change in input threshold voltage | Vth_sensitivity = ------------------------------------ | change in referenced supply voltage | | Vth_sensitivity must be entered as a whole number or | decimal, not as a fraction. | | Reference_supply indicates which supply voltage Vth tracks; | i.e. it indicates which supply voltage change causes a change | in input threshold. The legal arguments to this subparameter | are as follows: | Power_clamp_ref (the supply voltage defined by the | [POWER Clamp Reference] keyword) | Gnd_clamp_ref (the supply voltage defined by the | [GND Clamp Reference] keyword) | Pullup_ref (the supply voltage defined by the | [Pullup reference] keyword) | Pulldown_ref (the supply voltage defined by the | [Pulldown reference] keyword) | Ext_ref (the supply voltage defined by the | [External Reference] keyword) | | | | Vcross_min is the minimum voltage at which a differential | receivers' input signals may cross while switching and | still allow the receiver to meet its timing and functional | specifications. Vcross_min is specified with respect to | 0V. | | Vcross_max is the maximum voltage at which a differential | receivers' input signals may cross while switching and | still allow the receiver to meet its timing and functional | specifications. Vcross_max is specified with respect to | 0V. | | Vdiff_dc is the minimum voltage difference between the | inputs of a differential receiver that guarantees the | receiver will not change state. | | Vdiff_ac is the minimum voltage difference between the | inputs of a differential receiver that guarantees the | receiver will change state. | | | | Usage Rules: The [Receiver Thresholds] keyword is valid if the model type | includes any reference to input or I/O. For single ended | receivers the Vinh_ac, Vinh_dc, Vinl_ac, Vinh_dc and Vth | subparameters are required and override the Vinh, Vinl, | Vinh+/- and Vinl+/- subparameters declared under the | [Model] or [Model Spec] keywords. For single ended | receivers the Vth_min, Vth_max, Vth_sensitivity and | Reference_supply subparameters are optional. However, if | the Vth_sensitivity subparameter is present then the | Reference_supply subparameter must also be present. | | For differential receivers (i.e. the [Receiver Threshold] | keyword is part of a [Model] statement that describes a pin | listed in the [Diff Pin] keyword) then the Vcross_min, | Vcross_max, Vdiff_ac and Vdiff_dc subparameters are | required. The rest of the subparameters are not applicable to | differential receivers so are not used. The Vdiff_ac | Vdiff_dc values override the value of the Vdiff | subparameter specified by the [Diff Pin] keyword. Note | that Vcross_min and Vcross_max are valid over the devices | minimum and maximum operating conditions, and correspond | to the 'min' and 'max' columns used in the I-V and V-T | curves. | | Subparameter Usage Rules: | Numerical arguments are separated from their associated | subparameter by an equals sign (=); white space around the | equals sign is optional. The argument to the | Reference_supply subparameter is separated from the | subparameter by white space. | | Vth at Minimum or Maximum Operating Conditions: | As described above, the Vth_min and Vth_max subparameters | define the minimum and maximum input threshold values under | typical operating conditions. There is no provision for | directly specifying Vth under minimum or maximum operating | conditions. Instead, these values are calculated using | the following equation: | | Vth(min/max) = Vth* + [(Vth_sensitivity) X (change in supply voltage)] | | where Vth* is either Vth, Vth_min or Vth_max as appropriate, | and the supply voltage is the one indicated by the | Reference_Supply subparameter. | | | | Examples: | | A basic 3.3v single ended receiver using only the required | subparameters | Vth = 1.5v Vinh_ac = +225mV Vinh_dc = +100mV Vinl_ac = -225mV Vinl_dc = -100mV | | | A single ended receiver using an external threshold reference. In this | case the input threshold is the external reference voltage so | Vth_sensitivity equals 1. | Vth = 1.0v Vth_sensitivity = 1 Reference_Supply Ext_ref Vinh_ac = +200mV Vinh_dc = +100mV Vinl_ac = -200mV Vinl_dc = -100mV | | | A fully specified single ended 3.3v CMOS receiver | Vth = 1.5v Vth_min = 1.45v Vth_max = 1.53v Vth_sensitivity = 0.45 Reference_supply Power_clamp_ref Vinh_ac = +200mV Vinh_dc = +100mV Vinl_ac = -200mV Vinl_dc = -100mV | | | A differential receiver | Vcross_min = 0.65V Vcross_max = 0.90v Vdiff_ac = +200mv Vdiff_dc = +100mV 2) The following new keyword is defined and place in the specification following the [GND Clamp Reference] keyword |=========================================================================== == | Keyword: [External Reference] | Required: Yes, if a receiver's input threshold is determined by an | external reference voltage | Description: Defines a voltage source that supplies the reference voltage | used by a receiver for its input threshold reference. | Usage Notes: Provide actual voltages (not percentages in the typ, min max | format. "NA" is allowed for the min and max values only. | Note that the numerically largest value should be placed in | 'max' column, while the numerically smallest value should | be placed in the 'min' column. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- | variable typ min max [External Reference] 1.0v 0.95v 1.05v 3) Under section 2 of General Syntax Rules and Guidelines the following words are added to the list of reserved words. Ext_ref - A reference to a voltage defined by the [External Reference] Keyword Power_clamp_ref - A reference to a voltage defined by the [POWER Clamp Reference] keyword Gnd_clamp_ref - A reference to a voltage defined by the [GND Clamp Reference] keyword Pullup_ref - A reference to a voltage defined by the [Pullup Reference] keyword Pulldown_ref - A reference to a voltage defined by the [Pulldown Reference] keyword **************************************************************************** ** ANALYSIS PATH/DATA THAT LED TO SPECIFICATION: This proposal follows the recommendations of the JC-15 committee for specifying SDRAM inputs. Update for 62.1: Specified exactly which [Model] and [Model Spec] parameters are overridden by [Receiver Threshold] and changed the wording of the "Differential Receivers:" to indicate that the numerical value of Vth is *typically* assigned a value of 0v rather than *must* be assigned a value of zero. Update for 62.2 Under Usage Rules: added the section (Subparameter Usage Rules:) describing the syntax rules for separating arguments from subparameters. Updated examples with this change. Update for 62.3 The subparameter Input_Ref_Supply was renamed to Reference_supply (this is to be consistent with other subparameter names). The list of arguments to the Reference_supply subparameter was expanded and clarified. A note was added to the [External Reference] keyword clarifying which values go in the min and max columns of this keyword. Finally, four new subparameters that describe differential receivers were added. **************************************************************************** ** ANY OTHER BACKGROUND INFORMATION: This BIRD is a direct result of a request by the JEDEC JC-15 committee to the IBIS Open Forum to provide better specification of receivers. The basic form of this bird was discussed at a meeting in July 1999 between DC Sessions of Phillips Corp. and Stephen Peters, Richard Mellitz and Arpad Muranyi of Intel Corp. **************************************************************************** *** From owner-ibis Thu Feb 24 11:32:29 2000 Received: from yarilo.pluris.com (pluris.com [208.227.9.12]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA04694 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:32:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from monterey.pluris.com (monterey.pluris.com [172.16.50.17]) by yarilo.pluris.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA01115 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:31:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by monterey.pluris.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:31:16 -0800 Message-ID: <6342F12F9359D311990B009027A1B9B60C437E@monterey.pluris.com> From: Binshen Meng To: "'ibis-users@eda.org'" Subject: question on SPICE to IBIS translation Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:31:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have a question on generating V-T curves from SPICE models. How should I determine the slew rate that is used for the pulse stimulus in the transient simulation in HSPICE ( tr and tf in the statement: PULSE v1 v2 td tr tf pw per )? I have seen many sample simulations using difference slew rates (or transient rising or falling edges). Do component manufacturers provide this information in their data sheets? If not, what is the rule of thumb in determining it? Should that be generally very fast?.... Thanks for your help Binshen Meng Pluris, Inc 408-861-4132 From owner-ibis Fri Feb 25 00:47:04 2000 Received: from e2.ny.us.ibm.com (e2.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.102]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id AAA09057 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 00:47:03 -0800 (PST) From: gedlund@us.ibm.com Received: from northrelay02.pok.ibm.com (northrelay02.pok.ibm.com [9.117.200.22]) by e2.ny.us.ibm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA155252 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 03:44:03 -0500 Received: from D51MTA05.pok.ibm.com (d51mta05.pok.ibm.com [9.117.200.33]) by northrelay02.pok.ibm.com (8.8.8m2/NCO v2.06) with SMTP id DAA60308 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 03:45:19 -0500 Received: by D51MTA05.pok.ibm.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id 85256890.00301267 ; Fri, 25 Feb 2000 03:45:04 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: IBMUS To: ibis-users@vhdl.org Message-ID: <8525688F.0070B21E.00@D51MTA05.pok.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:30:57 -0600 Subject: Re: question on SPICE to IBIS translation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Binshen Meng, You should use rise and fall times that are consistent with the on-chip rise and fall times that the driver sees at its input. These numbers will depend on the silicon technology, the circuit driving the driver's input, and the loading (metal and gates) on this circuit. The manufacturer will not provide this information on a datasheet. You could call them up if you were really serious. What I would do is see how sensitive your driver is to input rise and fall time. Vary the input between 100 ps and 500 ps and see if you notice anything more than a phase shift in your driver's output waveform. Try two or three different loads, including a system-like load. If things look pretty much the same, then you're probably safe using any number in this range Greg Edlund Advisory Engineer, Critical Net Analysis IBM 3650 Hwy. 52 N, Dept. HDC Rochester, MN 55901 gedlund@us.ibm.com Binshen Meng on 02/24/2000 01:31:16 PM To: "'ibis-users@eda.org'" cc: Subject: question on SPICE to IBIS translation I have a question on generating V-T curves from SPICE models. How should I determine the slew rate that is used for the pulse stimulus in the transient simulation in HSPICE ( tr and tf in the statement: PULSE v1 v2 td tr tf pw per )? I have seen many sample simulations using difference slew rates (or transient rising or falling edges). Do component manufacturers provide this information in their data sheets? If not, what is the rule of thumb in determining it? Should that be generally very fast?.... Thanks for your help Binshen Meng Pluris, Inc 408-861-4132 From owner-ibis Sun Feb 27 23:03:40 2000 Received: from scan2.fhg.de (scan2.fhg.de [153.96.1.37]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id XAA23258 for ; Sun, 27 Feb 2000 23:03:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from scan2.fhg.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scan2.fhg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21675 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:02:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from faraday.pb.izm.fhg.de (faraday.pb.izm.fhg.de [153.96.119.2]) by scan2.fhg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21671 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:02:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from struppi.pb.izm.fhg.de (struppi.pb.izm.fhg.de [153.96.119.12]) by faraday.pb.izm.fhg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01534 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:02:19 +0100 (MET) Received: (from kurten@localhost) by struppi.pb.izm.fhg.de (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA19283 for ibis-users@eda.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:02:15 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:02:15 +0100 From: Michael Kurten To: ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Support of IBIS and IMIC Message-ID: <20000228080215.A19271@pb.izm.fhg.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i Organization: Fraunhofer IZM - Advanced System Engineering (ASE) Hello, my research institute is interested in describing SSN and EMI effects using IBIS or IMIC. In the last time I've searched a lot through the WWW and I found a lot regarding the state of the art of IBIS and IMIC. But regarding the support, and the future trends of these two languages I couldn't find satisfactory answers. Because of this I want to ask some questions about IBIS and IMIC. Basically I'm interested in: 1. What simulators actually support IBIS V3.2? Do they support all features? Do they support IBIS direct or via a conversion tool? 2. Are there simulators supporting IMIC except those from Apsim? 3. Do chip vendors provide IMIC models or are they thinking about providing IMIC models? 4. What do you think about the future direction. Will IMIC become more important in the future or will IBIS introduce features of IMIC? This question is in regard to the possibilities of SSN and EMI simulation using IBIS and IMIC. All kind of help is much appreciated. Many thanks in advance -- Michael Kurten Fraunhofer Gesellschaft Institut Zuverlässigkeit und Mikrointegration Fuerstenallee 11 - 33102 Paderborn - Germany Tel.:+49 5251-60-6177 Fax :+49 5251-60-6155 mailto:kurten@pb.izm.fhg.de http://www.pb.izm.fhg.de PGP public key : available From owner-ibis Mon Feb 28 11:51:50 2000 Received: from baucis.sc.intel.com (baucis.sc.intel.com [143.183.152.22]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA27169 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:48:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from SMTP (fmsmsxvs03-1.fm.intel.com [132.233.42.203]) by baucis.sc.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.19 2000/01/29 00:15:43 dmccart Exp $) with SMTP id LAA04673 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:46:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from fmsmsx19.fm.intel.com ([132.233.48.19]) by 132.233.48.203 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:46:48 0000 (GMT) Received: by fmsmsx19.fm.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:46:47 -0800 Message-ID: <7FD5C79AD680D211AC4100A0C96B501C04069A63@orsmsx49.jf.intel.com> From: "Peters, Stephen" To: "'ibis-users@eda.org'" Subject: RE: Support of IBIS and IMIC Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:46:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by server.eda.org id LAA27183 Hello Michael: My comments are below. Regards, Stephen Peters Intel Corp. > Hello, > > my research institute is interested in describing SSN and EMI > effects using > IBIS or IMIC. In the last time I've searched a lot through > the WWW and I found > a lot regarding the state of the art of IBIS and IMIC. But > regarding the > support, and the future trends of these two languages I couldn't find > satisfactory answers. Because of this I want to ask some > questions about IBIS > and IMIC. > > Basically I'm interested in: > > 1. What simulators actually support IBIS V3.2? Do they > support all features? Almost all major CAE vendors support IBIS V3.2 -- for a partial listing go to the IBIS web site and look at the roster page. As for supported features, there are a core set of features (multi-driver models, submodels, EBD files are the ones that come to mind immediately) that models providers have requested and most CAE vendors support. However, for specific details on what each tool supports you should contact each individual CAE vendor. > Do they support IBIS direct or via a conversion tool? Some tools will read an IBIS data file directly, other convert it into their own model format. > 2. Are there simulators supporting IMIC except those from Apsim? Not that I'm aware of. > 3. Do chip vendors provide IMIC models or are they thinking > about providing > IMIC models? I don't know of any US company that is providing IMIC models. I believe some Japanese companies are, but again, you will have to inquire directly. > 4. What do you think about the future direction. Will IMIC become more > important in the future or will IBIS introduce features of > IMIC? This > question is in regard to the possibilities of SSN and EMI > simulation > using IBIS and IMIC. > IBIS is seriously considering incorporating both nodal type descriptions and general purpose behavioral elements into the standard. This is to support package modeling (i.e. allow the user to build models that accurately reflect the effects of power and ground distribution on SSO noise) as well as receiver modeling. At this time, IBIS models are not intended to support EMI type simulators. In general, I view IMIC as filling a different role than IBIS. IMIC is basically a way to describe a transistor level circuit without revealing process information, but it is still targeted towards circuit type simulators. IBIS is targeted towards the behavioral, system level, simulator. > All kind of help is much appreciated. Many thanks in advance > > -- > Michael Kurten > > Fraunhofer Gesellschaft > Institut Zuverlässigkeit und Mikrointegration > Fuerstenallee 11 - 33102 Paderborn - Germany > Tel.:+49 5251-60-6177 > Fax :+49 5251-60-6155 > mailto:kurten@pb.izm.fhg.de > http://www.pb.izm.fhg.de > PGP public key : available From owner-ibis Mon Feb 28 12:47:41 2000 Received: from baucis.sc.intel.com (baucis.sc.intel.com [143.183.152.22]) by server.eda.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id MAA27363 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:47:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from SMTP (fmsmsxvs03-1.fm.intel.com [132.233.42.203]) by baucis.sc.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.19 2000/01/29 00:15:43 dmccart Exp $) with SMTP id MAA24157 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:45:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from fmsmsx19.fm.intel.com ([132.233.48.19]) by 132.233.48.203 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 20:45:56 0000 (GMT) Received: by fmsmsx19.fm.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:45:55 -0800 Message-ID: <4575832C8E71D111AC4100A0C96B5127064588D7@fmsmsx36.fm.intel.com> From: "Muranyi, Arpad" To: "'ibis-users@eda.org'" Subject: RE: Support of IBIS and IMIC Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:45:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by server.eda.org id MAA27367 As far as I know, HSPICE supports IMIC also. To what extent, I don't know. Arpad Muranyi Intel Corporation =========================================================================== -----Original Message----- From: Peters, Stephen [mailto:stephen.peters@intel.com] Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 11:47 AM To: 'ibis-users@eda.org' Subject: RE: Support of IBIS and IMIC Hello Michael: My comments are below. Regards, Stephen Peters Intel Corp. > Hello, > > my research institute is interested in describing SSN and EMI > effects using > IBIS or IMIC. In the last time I've searched a lot through > the WWW and I found > a lot regarding the state of the art of IBIS and IMIC. But > regarding the > support, and the future trends of these two languages I couldn't find > satisfactory answers. Because of this I want to ask some > questions about IBIS > and IMIC. > > Basically I'm interested in: > > 1. What simulators actually support IBIS V3.2? Do they > support all features? Almost all major CAE vendors support IBIS V3.2 -- for a partial listing go to the IBIS web site and look at the roster page. As for supported features, there are a core set of features (multi-driver models, submodels, EBD files are the ones that come to mind immediately) that models providers have requested and most CAE vendors support. However, for specific details on what each tool supports you should contact each individual CAE vendor. > Do they support IBIS direct or via a conversion tool? Some tools will read an IBIS data file directly, other convert it into their own model format. > 2. Are there simulators supporting IMIC except those from Apsim? Not that I'm aware of. > 3. Do chip vendors provide IMIC models or are they thinking > about providing > IMIC models? I don't know of any US company that is providing IMIC models. I believe some Japanese companies are, but again, you will have to inquire directly. > 4. What do you think about the future direction. Will IMIC become more > important in the future or will IBIS introduce features of > IMIC? This > question is in regard to the possibilities of SSN and EMI > simulation > using IBIS and IMIC. > IBIS is seriously considering incorporating both nodal type descriptions and general purpose behavioral elements into the standard. This is to support package modeling (i.e. allow the user to build models that accurately reflect the effects of power and ground distribution on SSO noise) as well as receiver modeling. At this time, IBIS models are not intended to support EMI type simulators. In general, I view IMIC as filling a different role than IBIS. IMIC is basically a way to describe a transistor level circuit without revealing process information, but it is still targeted towards circuit type simulators. IBIS is targeted towards the behavioral, system level, simulator. > All kind of help is much appreciated. Many thanks in advance > > -- > Michael Kurten > > Fraunhofer Gesellschaft > Institut Zuverlässigkeit und Mikrointegration > Fuerstenallee 11 - 33102 Paderborn - Germany > Tel.:+49 5251-60-6177 > Fax :+49 5251-60-6155 > mailto:kurten@pb.izm.fhg.de > http://www.pb.izm.fhg.de > PGP public key : available