From owner-ibis Wed Nov 5 08:55:03 1997 Received: from icx.com (root@fw.icx.com [205.238.6.33]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id IAA11739 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by icx.com (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #1) id ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:53:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by chane.icx.com (Smail-3.2.0.92 1997-Feb-9 #5) id ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by bob.icx.com via send-mail with stdio id for ibis-users@eda.org; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:52:54 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.92 1997-Feb-9 #7 built 1997-Jun-4) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:52:54 -0800 (PST) From: bob@icx.com (Bob Ross) To: ibis-users@eda.org, zarir@lsil.com Subject: Re: IBIS simulation help Zarir: Many companies provide EDA tools which use IBIS models for simulation. Review the Poster and IBIS Roster Listing sections of the EIA IBIS Web Site to get you started: http://www.eia.org/eig/ibis/ibis.htm Simulators read the IBIS models and use them directly or convert them into other formats for electrical simulation. Best Regards, Bob Ross Interconnectix > Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:20:36 +0531 > From: zarir@lsil.com (Zarir_Sarkari) > Message-Id: <199711050949.PAA15508@akola> > To: ibis-info@vhdl.org > Subject: IBIS simulation help > Hi : > Can someone please educate me as to which EDA tools and vendors > support IBIS simulation ? How do I go about using IBIS models ? > Thank you, > Zarir From owner-ibis Fri Nov 14 08:55:11 1997 Received: from palrel3.hp.com (palrel3.hp.com [156.153.255.219]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id IAA23058 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:55:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from hpbs2933.boi.hp.com (pgregory@hpbs2933.boi.hp.com [15.8.28.3]) by palrel3.hp.com (8.8.5/8.8.5tis) with SMTP id IAA27843 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by hpbs2933.boi.hp.com (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA20500; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:50:41 -0700 From: Paul Gregory Message-Id: <9711141650.AA20500@hpbs2933.boi.hp.com> Subject: typ outside min,max To: ibis-users@vhdl.org Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 9:50:41 MST Cc: pgregory@boi.hp.com (Paul Gregory) Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] At first I thought this was a bug, that is to say, a defect in the IBIS models I had. But now that I look closer, it seems to be more prevalent than I would have thought possible for a "bug". Maybe it is a feature. :) What I have found is that "typ" data is outside the "min" and "max" values. Consider this model fragment (greatly reduced for brevity) provided by a prominent silicon supplier: [Pulldown] |Voltage I(typ) I(min) I(max) | [lines deleted for brevity] -1.00E+00 -3.22E-02 -1.96E-02 -2.18E-02 -9.00E-01 -2.96E-02 -1.50E-02 -1.91E-02 -8.00E-01 -2.73E-02 -1.12E-02 -1.66E-02 -7.00E-01 -2.50E-02 -8.54E-03 -1.46E-02 -6.00E-01 -2.26E-02 -6.72E-03 -1.28E-02 -5.00E-01 -2.02E-02 -5.41E-03 -1.09E-02 -4.00E-01 -1.77E-02 -4.39E-03 -9.05E-03 -3.00E-01 -1.51E-02 -3.40E-03 -7.20E-03 -2.00E-01 -1.26E-02 -2.42E-03 -5.37E-03 -1.00E-01 -1.01E-02 -1.44E-03 -3.55E-03 0.00E+00 -4.67E-03 -4.60E-04 -1.43E-03 1.00E-01 1.82E-02 4.97E-04 1.33E-02 | typ out of range of min/max 2.00E-01 5.53E-02 1.43E-03 5.37E-02 | typ out of range of min/max 3.00E-01 9.70E-02 3.27E-03 9.92E-02 4.00E-01 1.41E-01 2.23E-02 1.44E-01 5.00E-01 1.85E-01 6.56E-02 1.95E-01 6.00E-01 2.29E-01 9.21E-02 2.50E-01 7.00E-01 2.72E-01 1.03E-01 3.01E-01 8.00E-01 3.12E-01 1.07E-01 3.49E-01 | [lines deleted for brevity] I expected that min and max represent the extremes of the device behavior. It seems that in some cases, it is not. Should this be expected? How is it explained? Should the model be changed to put the "extreme" value into the appropriate min or max column? This does not seem to be a singular case either, I have observed this problem in more than 30 models from at least 6 suppliers. Your comments? -- Paul Gregory phone: (208) 396-5086 USmail: Hewlett-Packard fax: (208) 396-4122 M/S 143 email: paul_gregory@hp.com 11311 Chinden Blvd. Boise, ID 83714 From owner-ibis Fri Nov 14 10:38:35 1997 Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA25086 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:38:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from uucp5.UU.NET by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: uucp5.UU.NET [192.48.96.36]) id QQdpqw01996; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from qdt.UUCP by uucp5.UU.NET with UUCP/RMAIL ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:36:03 -0500 Received: from hal.UUCP by qdt.viewlogic.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26726; Fri, 14 Nov 97 10:36:11 PST Received: from awacs by qdt.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12670; Fri, 14 Nov 97 10:35:49 PST Sender: crokusek@qdt.com Message-Id: <346C9A03.ABD322C@qdt.com> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:35:47 -0800 From: Chris Rokusek Organization: Quad Design Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Gregory Cc: ibis-users@vhdl.org Subject: Re: typ outside min,max References: <9711132207.AA10526@hpbs2933.boi.hp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul, Without first de-referencing each Pullup/Pulldown and each Power Clamp/GND Clamp from its "Reference voltage" and then summing them together appropriately I don't think a check is possible. For example, it is possible (although perhaps not desirable) that a max and min Pullup curve use the same Voltage reference value (i.e. 5V) however the zero current crossing point on the voltage axis when looking at the raw curves (w/o de-referencing) differs by .5V. Or maybe the curves are EXACTLY the same with just different reference voltages. A single Pullup/Pulldown curve cannot be looked at in isolation unless the shunts curve currents are 0. Its also not clear to me that the shunt regions of the pullup/pulldown will follow min < typ < max rule (even if absolute values are used)--SEE YOUR EXAMPLE for voltages < 0v. I expect that after the shunts were added back in to your example it might be somewhat clearer. My first impulse is that even if the curves are added appropriately I would expect many exceptions to occur--esp. near the 0-current crossing points and in the shunt regions. Possible in the middle of the operating range a single check might work most of the time. Chris Rokusek Viewlogic ADG From owner-ibis Fri Nov 14 12:09:30 1997 Received: from InterJet.apsimtech.com (apsimtech.com [209.21.21.35]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id MAA26943 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:09:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by InterJet.apsimtech.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04411; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:11:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from UNKNOWN(), claiming to be "contec12" via SMTP by InterJet.apsimtech.com, id smtpd004408; Fri Nov 14 11:10:54 1997 Sender: fred@apsimtech.com Message-ID: <346CA212.776B@apsimtech.com> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:10:10 -0800 From: Fred Balistreri Organization: Apsim X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; SunOS 5.3 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Gregory CC: ibis-users@vhdl.org, Paul Gregory Subject: Re: typ outside min,max References: <9711141650.AA20500@hpbs2933.boi.hp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Gregory wrote: > > At first I thought this was a bug, that is to say, a > defect in the IBIS models I had. But now that I look > closer, it seems to be more prevalent than I would > have thought possible for a "bug". Maybe it is > a feature. :) > > What I have found is that "typ" data is outside the "min" > and "max" values. > > Consider this model fragment (greatly reduced for brevity) > provided by a prominent silicon supplier: > > [Pulldown] > |Voltage I(typ) I(min) I(max) > | [lines deleted for brevity] > -1.00E+00 -3.22E-02 -1.96E-02 -2.18E-02 > -9.00E-01 -2.96E-02 -1.50E-02 -1.91E-02 > -8.00E-01 -2.73E-02 -1.12E-02 -1.66E-02 > -7.00E-01 -2.50E-02 -8.54E-03 -1.46E-02 > -6.00E-01 -2.26E-02 -6.72E-03 -1.28E-02 > -5.00E-01 -2.02E-02 -5.41E-03 -1.09E-02 > -4.00E-01 -1.77E-02 -4.39E-03 -9.05E-03 > -3.00E-01 -1.51E-02 -3.40E-03 -7.20E-03 > -2.00E-01 -1.26E-02 -2.42E-03 -5.37E-03 > -1.00E-01 -1.01E-02 -1.44E-03 -3.55E-03 > 0.00E+00 -4.67E-03 -4.60E-04 -1.43E-03 > 1.00E-01 1.82E-02 4.97E-04 1.33E-02 | typ out of range of min/max > 2.00E-01 5.53E-02 1.43E-03 5.37E-02 | typ out of range of min/max > 3.00E-01 9.70E-02 3.27E-03 9.92E-02 > 4.00E-01 1.41E-01 2.23E-02 1.44E-01 > 5.00E-01 1.85E-01 6.56E-02 1.95E-01 > 6.00E-01 2.29E-01 9.21E-02 2.50E-01 > 7.00E-01 2.72E-01 1.03E-01 3.01E-01 > 8.00E-01 3.12E-01 1.07E-01 3.49E-01 > | [lines deleted for brevity] > > I expected that min and max represent the extremes of the > device behavior. It seems that in some cases, it is not. > Should this be expected? How is it explained? > > Should the model be changed to put the "extreme" value > into the appropriate min or max column? > > This does not seem to be a singular case either, I have > observed this problem in more than 30 models from at > least 6 suppliers. > > Your comments? > > -- Paul Gregory > > phone: (208) 396-5086 USmail: Hewlett-Packard > fax: (208) 396-4122 M/S 143 > email: paul_gregory@hp.com 11311 Chinden Blvd. > Boise, ID 83714 Paul, I would tend to agee with you that it is a bit odd. However the model should be looked at in the context of the whole curve, not particuliar points. It is not the particuliar points that describe the charactisitic but rather the slope of the points. In that respect the typical curve should lie between the two extremes. It is my belief that if you indeed plot the curves you would find that to be the case. Occasional massive slope change within the curve may occur. Of course on the other hand I have known to be wrong on occasion....at least thats what my wife claims. Best Regards, -- Fred Balistreri fred@apsimtech.com http://www.apsimtech.com From owner-ibis Fri Nov 14 13:33:43 1997 Received: from alabama.nwlink.com (mail.nwlink.com [209.20.130.40]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA28415 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:33:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kellee@localhost) by alabama.nwlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06081; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:29:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19971114132919.008bb820@mail.nwlink.com> X-Sender: kellee@mail.nwlink.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:29:19 -0800 To: Chris Rokusek , Paul Gregory From: Kellee Crisafulli Subject: Re: typ outside min,max Cc: ibis-users@vhdl.org In-Reply-To: <346C9A03.ABD322C@qdt.com> References: <9711132207.AA10526@hpbs2933.boi.hp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Chris, At 10:35 AM 11/14/97 -0800, Chris Rokusek wrote: >Without first de-referencing each Pullup/Pulldown and each Power >Clamp/GND Clamp from its "Reference voltage" and then summing them >together appropriately I don't think a check is possible. For example, >it is possible (although perhaps not desirable) that a max and min >Pullup curve use the same Voltage reference value (i.e. 5V) however the >zero current crossing point on the voltage axis when looking at the raw >curves (w/o de-referencing) differs by .5V. Or maybe the curves are >EXACTLY the same with just different reference voltages. A single >Pullup/Pulldown curve cannot be looked at in isolation unless the shunts >curve currents are 0. Chris, didn't you already write code to do the above for the new IBIS golden parser? If so could it be re-used. >My first impulse is that even if the curves are added appropriately I >would expect many exceptions to occur--esp. near the 0-current crossing >points and in the shunt regions. Possible in the middle of the >operating range a single check might work most of the time. I agree, this could be limited to currents greater than |100ua| (magnitude) and it would certainly need to be a warning not an error. Also it should probably just count the number of them and report the total number of min's or max's that are larger/smaller than typ. This way it wouldn't show 100 entries all off by 1fA Also the test should allow something like +-10uA around typ. as ok. Then again this is getting rather complex..... (keep it simple may apply) -> don't add a new test ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Have a great day... Kellee Crisafulli at HyperLynx kellee@hyperlynx.com http://www.hyperlynx.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ibis Fri Nov 14 15:14:29 1997 Received: from mail12.digital.com (mail12.digital.com [192.208.46.20]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA00183 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:14:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from us8rmc.bb.dec.com (us8rmc.bb.dec.com [16.53.0.44]) by mail12.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.5/1.0/WV) with SMTP id SAA31929; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from wrksys.enet by us8rmc.bb.dec.com (5.65/rmc-17Jan97) id AA24583; Fri, 14 Nov 97 17:56:22 -0500 Message-Id: <9711142256.AA24583@us8rmc.bb.dec.com> Received: from wrksys.enet; by us8rmc.enet; Fri, 14 Nov 97 18:05:12 EST Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 18:05:12 EST From: Andrew Ingraham To: pgregory@hpbs2933.boi.hp.com Cc: ibis-users@vhdl.org, ingraham@wrksys.ENET.dec.com Apparently-To: ibis-users@vhdl.org, pgregory@hpbs2933.boi.hp.com Subject: Re: typ outside min,max Indeed, the IBIS "min" and "max" columns do not necessarily represent the min and max extremes of output current. The "min" column represents "slow" or "weak" conditions: weak process, supply voltages are at minimum, and temperature is either minimum (for bipolar) or maximum (CMOS). The "max" column is the opposite. I think it is conceivable that some intermediate conditions might fall outside these two cases over limited voltage regions, especially if there is anything in the buffer that is very nonlinear, even as simple as a diode. Places where the I/V curves have sharp curvature, are more susceptible. I/V curves do not always simply scale up and down vertically (vs. voltage) as you vary temperature and supply voltage; they also shift somewhat left or right, which can appear to move portions of the curves the wrong way when you are looking only at I vs. V. If the device is Bi-CMOS, odd things can happen vs. temperature. Some bi-CMOS parts get faster/stronger with lower temperatures, some do the opposite, others may do a combination of both. If your IBIS model was prepared correctly (a *big* IF), my guess is this is bipolar or bi-CMOS, judging by the strong nonlinearity of the pulldown around 0V. Notice that it's not only the two points you highlighted that look out of place, but the entire region shown below 0V. I(typ) is about twice I(max) down there! Also note that the curves miss the origin by milliamps. Some buffers really do this. Or maybe it's measurement error. Or an error compiling the measured or simulated data into the IBIS model (since we're looking only at the [Pulldown] table). Regards, Andy Ingraham From owner-ibis Fri Nov 14 16:04:33 1997 Received: from icx.com (root@fw.icx.com [205.238.6.33]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id QAA01094 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by icx.com (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #1) id ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:59:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by chane.icx.com (Smail-3.2.0.92 1997-Feb-9 #5) id ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:59:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by bob.icx.com via send-mail with stdio id for pgregory@hpbs2933.boi.hp.com; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:59:28 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.92 1997-Feb-9 #7 built 1997-Jun-4) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:59:28 -0800 (PST) From: bob@icx.com (Bob Ross) To: pgregory@hpbs2933.boi.hp.com Subject: Re: typ outside min,max Cc: ibis-users@vhdl.org, ingraham@wrksys.enet.dec.com Paul: In one particular BiCMOS device where I did s2ibis conversions for an ABT Spice model using voltage, temperature, and process variations, I got min and max tables crossing the typ tables in the clamping region, and also points where the typ data was larger than the min and max data at .3V and the min data was larger than the max data at .2V for the [Pulldown] table. So I have a real situation that demostrates what Andy is referring to. Bob Ross Interconnectix > Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 18:05:12 EST > From: Andrew Ingraham > To: pgregory@hpbs2933.boi.hp.com > Cc: ibis-users@vhdl.org, ingraham@wrksys.ENET.dec.com > Apparently-To: ibis-users@vhdl.org, pgregory@hpbs2933.boi.hp.com > Subject: Re: typ outside min,max > Status: R > Indeed, the IBIS "min" and "max" columns do not necessarily represent > the min and max extremes of output current. > The "min" column represents "slow" or "weak" conditions: weak process, > supply voltages are at minimum, and temperature is either minimum (for > bipolar) or maximum (CMOS). The "max" column is the opposite. > I think it is conceivable that some intermediate conditions might fall > outside these two cases over limited voltage regions, especially if > there is anything in the buffer that is very nonlinear, even as simple > as a diode. Places where the I/V curves have sharp curvature, are > more susceptible. I/V curves do not always simply scale up and down > vertically (vs. voltage) as you vary temperature and supply voltage; > they also shift somewhat left or right, which can appear to move > portions of the curves the wrong way when you are looking only at > I vs. V. > If the device is Bi-CMOS, odd things can happen vs. temperature. > Some bi-CMOS parts get faster/stronger with lower temperatures, some > do the opposite, others may do a combination of both. > If your IBIS model was prepared correctly (a *big* IF), my guess is > this is bipolar or bi-CMOS, judging by the strong nonlinearity of the > pulldown around 0V. > Notice that it's not only the two points you highlighted that look out > of place, but the entire region shown below 0V. I(typ) is about twice > I(max) down there! > Also note that the curves miss the origin by milliamps. Some buffers > really do this. Or maybe it's measurement error. Or an error > compiling the measured or simulated data into the IBIS model (since > we're looking only at the [Pulldown] table). > Regards, > Andy Ingraham From owner-ibis Mon Nov 17 05:57:32 1997 Received: from E-MAIL.COM (e-mail.com [204.146.168.195]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id FAA03877 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 05:57:31 -0800 (PST) From: l.bessettes.alcatel@e-mail.com Message-Id: <199711171357.FAA03877@server.vhdl.org> Received: from e-mail by E-MAIL.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 9353; Mon, 17 Nov 97 08:55:31 EST Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:55:27 EST To: ibis-users@vhdl.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: IBIS models A: INTERNET--IBMMAIL De: Laure BESSETTES___ Email: L.Bessettes.Alcatel(a)e-mail.com ALCATEL ESPACE - DPR/CAL/EMC Tel: 05.61.19.67.49 Fax: 05.61.19.69.72 Objet: IBIS models I work with the EMC software of Quad-Design, and I need some models of ECL Differential devices. Are the NS100112 driver and the NS100105 receiver models are available? If not, any other ECL DIFFerential Driver and Receiver wil be convenient. Thanks. Laure BESSETTES From owner-ibis Tue Nov 18 02:08:58 1997 Received: from peek.dmz.st.com (peek.stmicroelectronics.com [195.101.81.1]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id CAA25318 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 02:08:57 -0800 (PST) From: FABRICE.BOISSIERES@st.com Received: from eux100.sgp.st.com (eux100.sgp.st.com [164.129.225.7]) by peek.dmz.st.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA15121; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:06:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by eux100.sgp.st.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA24719; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:06:38 +0100 (MET) X-OpenMail-Hops: 2 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 11:05:07 +0100 Message-Id: Subject: need some info on how IBIS models are use MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: FABRICE.BOISSIERES@st.com TO: ibis-info@eda.org, ibis-users@vhdl.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="need" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="need" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everybody We are developping some models IBIS for IO. And i want to know if anybody have some information on how these models are used by PCB people. What type of analysis are executed in PCB with IBIS model ? Does it exist in public domain and ibis simulator ? Thank you for your help Fabrice BOISSIERES From owner-ibis Tue Nov 18 05:13:28 1997 Received: from kaw.com ([206.155.177.89]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id FAA28394 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 05:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by kaw.com; id AA02601; Tue, 18 Nov 97 08:13:34 EST Received: from omni.kaw.com(192.168.200.83) by explorer via smap (V3.1) id xma002599; Tue, 18 Nov 97 08:13:30 -0500 Received: from kaw.com (monte [192.168.200.105]) by kaw.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA29406; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:11:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <347193FC.A58FBD38@kaw.com> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:11:24 -0500 From: Dan Aleksandrowicz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: FABRICE.BOISSIERES@st.com, "ibis-users@vhdl.org" Subject: Re: need some info on how IBIS models are use References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Farbrice. As an IBIS user I usually use the IBIS model I/O buffer to drive and recive signals on multi driver reciver nets. And these signals are usually interconnected via T-linse. As for the signal frequency I use - it is usually, 70% of the cases, around the 95% of the highest rated clock frequency data specifications. I hope this helps you. Dan Aleksandrowicz Engineering Solutions KAW/USA FABRICE.BOISSIERES@st.com wrote: > > Hello Everybody > > We are developping some models IBIS for IO. > And i want to know if anybody have some information on how these > models are used by PCB people. > What type of analysis are executed in PCB with IBIS model ? > > Does it exist in public domain and ibis simulator ? > > Thank you for your help > > Fabrice BOISSIERES From owner-ibis Thu Nov 20 08:34:49 1997 Received: from mailer.nupes.cefetpr.br (thomson.nupes.cefetpr.br [200.17.97.144]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id IAA22728 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:34:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from edison (edison [200.17.97.130]) by mailer.nupes.cefetpr.br (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12456 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:49:30 -0200 (EDT) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:49:30 -0200 (EDT) From: Marcelo Souza Ferreira Message-Id: <199711201549.NAA12456@mailer.nupes.cefetpr.br> To: ibis-users@vhdl.org Subject: s2ibis for W95 X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Hi, I need to employ s2ibis, but my operacional system isn't Windows NT, it's Windows 95. Is there some s2ibis for W95? I know there are some s2ibis for download at NCSU, include s2ibis for DOS, but some then are damaged, and it is not possible incompress then. I'm having problems with the DOS' s2ibis, too. When I try to employ the executable s2ibis10, DOS version, using the Pspice,the following message is appearing: 'Can't open the spice deck file pdtthree.spipdtthree.outpdtthree.msg'. Could you explain me what's happening and what shall I do for it work out? Or: -- how can I get a funcional s2ibis for W95 or DOS? I really need this conversion software and wait for your answer. Thanks. Marcelo Ferreira. From owner-ibis Fri Nov 21 14:01:15 1997 Received: from icx.com (root@fw.icx.com [205.238.6.33]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id OAA23324; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:01:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by icx.com (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #1) id ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by chane.icx.com (Smail-3.2.0.92 1997-Feb-9 #5) id ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:58:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by bob.icx.com via send-mail with stdio id for ibis@eda.org; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:58:23 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.92 1997-Feb-9 #7 built 1997-Jun-4) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:58:23 -0800 (PST) From: bob@icx.com (Bob Ross) To: ibis-users@eda.org, ibis@eda.org, si-list@silab.eng.sun.com Subject: EUROPEAN IBIS SUMMIT ANNOUNCEMENT E U R O P E A N I B I S S U M M I T M E E T I N G Time/Date: 8 AM - 5 PM, Thursday, February 26, 1998 Location: Concorde-Lafayette Hotel (Adjacent to Le Palais des Congress de Paris Porte Mailot - Site of the DATE98 Conference) Paris, France Content: Presentations and Discussions Purpose: Solicit and Exchange IBIS Model Related Information and Ideas. Sponsors: Mentor Graphics, Cadence (so far) DATE98 Show: DATE98 - February 23-26, 1998. The IBIS meeting is scheduled the day following the last day of the trade show portion of the Conference. See www.date-conference.com for more information. PCB Symposium: An all day symposium is scheduled Wednesday, February 25, 1998 on PCB design issues. This is being co-organized (so far) by Cadence, Mentor Graphics, Incases, and Zuken-Redac. Plan to include DATE98, the PCB Symposium, and the IBIS Summit Meeting in your visit. More information on the PCB Symposium will be available at a later time. BACKGROUND As a result of regular EIA IBIS Open Forum meetings since 1993, IBIS Version 2.1 has been ratified both nationaly (in the United States of America) as ANSI/EIA-656 and internationally as IEC 62014-1. Most of the IBIS are conducted on a regular basis via teleconferencing, but the EIA IBIS Open Forum also conducts two face-to-face meetings every year at the Design Automation Conference (DAC) and DesignCon locations. While some of the IBIS Summits focused on resolving standards issues, others have been used for general IBIS information exchange. Historically, some of the IBIS advances have come from such exchanges. Because of wide-spread international usage and acceptance of IBIS, the EIA IBIS Open Forum will hold a European IBIS Summit at the same time as the DATE98 Conference and PCB Symposium in Paris, France. We are particularly interested the international experiences and ideas at this IBIS Summit. CALL FOR PARTICIPANTS People involved in IBIS Model development, EDA tool development, and digital circuit design are invited to participate in the European IBIS Summit meeting. If you plan to participate, please supply the information below: Name: E-mail address: Company: Telephone: Send to: Bob Ross (bob@icx.com) CALL FOR PRESENTATIONS We are seeking presentations from individuals who have IBIS experiences or issues. Format of Presentation: Overhead Projections Time: 15-30 Minutes Electronic Archival: We request electronic versions so that the presentations can be archived and also made available to non-attendees. Formats used in the past have been text, Power Point, Word, Postscript, and Acrobat. If you plan a presentation, please supply Title: Presenter: E-mail address: Company: Telephone: Estimate Time: Send this to: Bob Ross (bob@icx.com) (See the list below for some planned presentations and suggested topics) AGENDA The agenda includes presentations, discussions, breaks, and lunch (which we are planning to provide). FOR FURTHER INFORMATION: Bob Ross, Chair, EIA/IBIS Open Forum Interconnectix Division, Mentor Graphics 10220 S.W. Nimbus Ave., K4 Portland, OR USA (503) 603-2523 bob@icx.com SOME SUGGESTED AND ACTUAL PLANNED TOPICS: Company Experiences Use of IBIS at Alcatel - John Fitzpatrick IBIS Model Development at National - Syed Huq Modeling Experiences at your company - Library management, validation, conversion, etc. How to have industry (model providers) converge to IBIS IBIS Model Generation at Semiconductor companies IBIS Model generation from company not active on IBIS committee IBIS Model Generation Package Modeling (L, R, C) IBIS Models from measurement (extrapolation, equipment, package effects) Technical Issues and Possible IBIS Extensions High Speed Effects IBIS and EMC IBIS and Radiation Analysis - Incases Conversions from/to IBIS and Other Formats Conversion Problems between Spice and IBIS - Convergence, Oscillation Conversions among other formats (IBIS, XTK, SigNoise, etc.) Simulators that support IBIS From owner-ibis Sat Nov 22 23:48:55 1997 Received: from galileo5.galileo.co.il ([192.116.246.22]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id XAA26109 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:48:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pc13 (pc13.galileo.co.il [192.116.246.249]) by galileo.co.il (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA02891 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:35:25 +0200 (IST) Message-Id: <199711230735.JAA02891@galileo.co.il> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Eitan Medina" Organization: Galileo Technology Ltd. To: ibis-users@vhdl.org Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:44:20 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary=Message-Boundary-30235 Subject: IBIS rev 2.1 additions to rev 1.2 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) --Message-Boundary-30235 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Hi, I have generated simple rev2.1 models for CMOS device, that includes the following elements: pullup pulldown ramp rising waveform falling waveform POWER clamp GND clamp I have a client who cannot use this, since he has only rev1.1 simulator, and asks for a rev1.1 model. The Parsers in the web-site, as well an editor I have (from Hyperlynx) verify rev2.1 compatability only (no rev1.1 compatability check...) What should be removed/changed from the model in order to make it readable by a rev1.1 simulator ? From what I have read, only the rising and falling waveforms should be removed. Am I correct ? Can someone with a rev1.1 simulator try this out for me ? Attached: Simple rev 2.1 model (with one pad) Thanks, Eitan Eitan Medina Email: eitan@galileo.co.il Galileo Technology Ltd. 15 Geron st. P.O.Box 2786 Yehud 56217 ISRAEL Tel: +972-3-6320220 Fax: +972-3-6320221 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* * check out our new web site: http://www.GalileoT.com * *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* --Message-Boundary-30235 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-disposition: inline Content-description: Attachment information. The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system, you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. 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Those who mentioned interest in being part of the user group at the first IBIS-East Forum should have been contacted already. Now we're expandingthe communication to see if anyone else would like to become actively involved. We have limited space, but would welcome input and/or attendance if you are interested in becoming more involved. Let us here from you! The proposed date and time for the user group meeting is: Date: Thursday, December 4, 1997 Time: 3:00 PM Location: Tentatively scheduled to be at Cadence Design Chelmsford, MA The proposed agenda follows. Feedback and new ideas are welcome. Realistically only a portion of the topics can be discussed, so the users group can prioritize which topics should be delt with initially and which follow. "Zeroing in from 30,000 Feet" * What are the key elements that need to be in place for IBIS to be used for system designs (i.e. low cost or free simulator, etc.) (break down elements into realistic chunks, create action plans) * Define what is working well with IBIS * Define largest concerns with using IBIS (i.e. model validity) * Insuring IBIS Model Accuracy * Criteria for IBIS model validation * Review of various IBIS tools (i.e. capabilities, accessibility, sys. reqmts.) * IBIS User Group - Keeping it open, focus, meeting frequency, distribution list, information management, etc. Thank you and we look forward to your response! Regards, Kathy Breda & Ed Sayre +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+ | NORTH EAST SYSTEMS ASSOCIATES, INC. | | ------------------------------------- | | "High Performance Engineering & Design" | +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+ | Kathy Breda e-mail: breda@nesa.com | | NESA, Inc. http://www.nesa.com/ | | 636 Great Road Tel +1.978.897-8787 | | Stow, MA 01775 USA Fax +1.978.897-5359 | +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+ From owner-ibis Mon Nov 24 16:34:26 1997 Received: from icx.com (root@fw.icx.com [205.238.6.33]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id QAA07731 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:34:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by icx.com (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #1) id ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:32:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by chane.icx.com (Smail-3.2.0.92 1997-Feb-9 #5) id ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:32:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by bob.icx.com via send-mail with stdio id for ibis-users@eda.org; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:31:58 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.92 1997-Feb-9 #7 built 1997-Jun-4) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:31:58 -0800 (PST) From: bob@icx.com (Bob Ross) To: eitan@galileo.co.il, ibis-users@eda.org Subject: re IBIS rev 2.1 additons to rev1.2 Eitan: You can convert this model to Version 1.1 IBIS by removing the waveform tables as you suggest. Also, you need to comment out or remove the [Temperature Range] keyword and change the [IBIS Ver] to 1.1. Any of the ibichk utilities including ibischk2 will validate Version 1.1 models against the Version 1.1 syntax. With this process, you can detect other Version 2.1 keywords and subparameters that need to be removed for Version 1.1 level parsing. Best Regards, Bob Ross Interconnectix From: "Eitan Medina" Organization: Galileo Technology Ltd. To: ibis-users@vhdl.org Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:44:20 +0200 Subject: IBIS rev 2.1 additions to rev 1.2 Hi, I have generated simple rev2.1 models for CMOS device, that includes the following elements: pullup pulldown ramp rising waveform falling waveform POWER clamp GND clamp I have a client who cannot use this, since he has only rev1.1 simulator, and asks for a rev1.1 model. The Parsers in the web-site, as well an editor I have (from Hyperlynx) verify rev2.1 compatability only (no rev1.1 compatability check...) What should be removed/changed from the model in order to make it readable by a rev1.1 simulator ? >From what I have read, only the rising and falling waveforms should be removed. Am I correct ? Can someone with a rev1.1 simulator try this out for me ? Attached: Simple rev 2.1 model (with one pad) Thanks, Eitan Eitan Medina Email: eitan@galileo.co.il Galileo Technology Ltd. 15 Geron st. P.O.Box 2786 Yehud 56217 ISRAEL Tel: +972-3-6320220 Fax: +972-3-6320221 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* * check out our new web site: http://www.GalileoT.com * *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From owner-ibis Tue Nov 25 13:41:50 1997 Received: from ganymede.or.intel.com (root@ganymede.or.intel.com [134.134.248.3]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA00118 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:41:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from ichips-jf.jf.intel.com (ichips-jf.jf.intel.com [134.134.50.200]) by ganymede.or.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05930; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:51:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from xtg801 (xtg801.intel.com [134.134.120.169]) by ichips-jf.jf.intel.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12021; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:39:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ichips.intel.com by xtg801 (8.8.8/WW2.1) id NAA05537; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:39:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711252139.NAA05537@xtg801> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: eitan@galileo.co.il, ibis-users@eda.org Subject: Re: re IBIS rev 2.1 additons to rev1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:39:03 -0800 From: Stephen Peters Hello Eitan: I've been following the conversttion and I just want to add a word of warning. While you can convert a Ver 2.1 model into a Ver. 1.1 model by eliminating (among other things) the waveform tables, you may be deleting information critical to the models proper operation. Before doing the conversion I would check with the model creator and see if eliminating the waveform tables will give bad simulation results. At the least, run a before and after simulation and compare the results. Regards, Stephen Peters Intel Corp. From owner-ibis Wed Nov 26 10:43:23 1997 Received: from wile.nesa.com ([204.240.29.34]) by server.vhdl.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id KAA21842 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:43:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:08:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199711261808.NAA18555@wile.nesa.com> Received: from porky.nesa.com(204.240.29.45) by wile.nesa.com via smap (V1.3) id sma018553; Wed Nov 26 13:07:58 1997 X-Sender: breda@mail.nesa.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: phil@avici.com, tclarke@avici.com, cdean@avici.com, klepage@avici.com, aaron_boxer@3mail.3com.com, Chris_Heard/US/3Com%3COM@smtp1.isd.3com.com, Mitch_Rosich@3mail.3com.com, doucette@wonder.enet.dec.com, nolan@gaas.enet.dec.com, burns@ricks.enet.dec.com, thierauf@rock.enet.dec.com, wenners@ricks.enet.dec.com, hyer@gaas.enet.dec.com, lachapelle@gaas.enet.dec.com, haller@wonder.enet.dec.com, jake@rock.enet.dec.com, funaro@gaas.enet.dec.com, derenne@poboxa.enet.dec.com, ramey@rock.enet.dec.com, mayew@rock.enet.dec.com, james.mayrand@digital.com, Dan_Fitzpatrick@stratus.com, Ed_Cassinelli@stratus.com, Vin_Curran@stratus.com, Bill_Hoyle@stratus.com, Vicky_Triolo@stratus.com, Keith_StPierre@stratus.com, Scott_Simmons@stratus.com, Steve_Mango@stratus.com, mike.gilbert@fairchildsemi.com, gary.o'donnell@fairchildsemi.com, william.r.houk@fairchildsemi.com, Peter.LaFlamme@fairchildsemi.com, graham@spcfs2.nsc.com, pgroth@fmis02.nsc.com, andrew.grace@fairchildsemi.com, William.Spreen@fairchildsemi.com, rbaracka@casc.com, bbranscomb@casc.com, thawkins@world.std.com, rainville@casc.com, crn@casc.com, fkb1@casc.com, ped1@casc.com, tah1@casc.com, jpj1@casc.com, DavidJJ@bergelect.com, krausd@bergelect.com, elcora@aol.com, ddeutsch@bbn.com, jrokosz@bbn.com, rosterlind@bbn.com, hyeh@bbn.com, tholtey@bbn.com, jseeger@bbn.com, tony_lavely@mc.com, mark_laforest@mc.com, evans@mc.com, psg@baynetworks.com, rangle@baynetworks.com, jfitz@baynetworks.com, fboptions@sprintmail.com, cmarsh@fore.com, jck@fore.com, warden@fore.com, Elliot.Lipin@gensig.com, pzdinak@tautron.com, bobd@tautron.com, bcarlile@ub.com, jwelch@ub.com, abaruch@cassatt.Mass-USR.COM, wmahla@cassatt.Mass-USR.COM, rgd@mass-usr.com, gjankaus@mass-usr.com, pgjr@cadence.com, kwillis@node2.cadence.com, bobv@node2.cadence.com, ericb@node2.cadence.com, Gary_Husted@ccm2.hf.intel.com, 102101.136@compuserve.com, pfield@compurep.com, dacase@attmail.com, jaydiep@us.ibm.com, mmatejic@foxboro.com, sayre@unix.cie.rpi.edu, jpatel@funies.enet.dec.com, kpotvin@viewlogic.com, joe@trilogic.com, csteinbeis@xynetic.com, hemants@xynetic.com, wnorwood@smtp.microcom.com, joe_logan@avanticorp.com, cohan@boston.mentorg.com, rick@dolphinics.com, scoe@ctron.com, jcarter@ctron.com, selliot@ctron.com, bezanson@ctron.com, pearsall@ctron.com, Kweldon@ctron.com, wingate@ctron.com, makris@ccmailpc.ctron.com, dereko@ctron.com, paradis@ctron.com, fleming@ctron.com, jspencer@ctron.com, dferro@ctron.com, cbell@ctron.com, shimer@ctron.com, notaro@ctron.com, kbeach@ctron.com, mehmetd@ctron.com, damiano@ctron.com, cmartin@ctron.com, ddoherty@ctron.com, rkroposk@ctron.com, jsims@ctron.com, timyu@ctron.com, wham@ctron.com, kheath@ctron.com, nietupsk@ctron.com, abdallah@ctron.com, mattica@ctron.com, jhpierce@ctron.com, pmuckerh@ctron.com, ccallen@ctron.com, milbury@ctron.com, prich@earthlink.net, donaldt@cadence.com, Greg.Edlund@digital.com, gpf@cadence.com, si-list@silab.Eng.Sun.COM, ibis-users@eda.org From: Kathy Breda Subject: IBIS User Group Meeting - LOCATION/DIRECTIONS Greetings and a Happy Thanksgiving to everyone: If you haven't already done so, please let me know if you plan to attend so that we can insure the meeting room is large enough. The IBIS User Group meeting logistics are as follows: Date: Thursday, December 4, 1997 Time: 3:00 PM Location: Cadence Design, Chelmsford, MA Directions: Cadence Design 270 Billerica Road Chelmsford, Ma. Tel: 978-262-6000 From Rt. 495 (N or S) take Rt. 3 South to Rt. 129 West (first exit) From Rt. 128 (N or S) take Rt. 3 North to Rt. 129 West Cadence is on the right ~.5 mile, look for # (270) and Cadence sign on front of building. +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+ | NORTH EAST SYSTEMS ASSOCIATES, INC. | | ------------------------------------- | | "High Performance Engineering & Design" | +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+ | Kathy Breda e-mail: breda@nesa.com | | NESA, Inc. http://www.nesa.com/ | | 636 Great Road Tel +1.978.897-8787 | | Stow, MA 01775 USA Fax +1.978.897-5359 | +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+