DATE: September 9, 1997
SUBJECT: 9/5/97 EIA IBIS Open Forum Minutes
VOTING MEMBERS AND 1997 PARTICIPANTS LIST:
AMP Jeff Walden
Applied Simulation Technology [Dileep Divekar], Norio Matsui, Raj Raghuram*,
Fred Balistreri
Cadence Design & UniCAD C. Kumar, Don Telian, Cameron Seitz
Cypress Bruce Wenniger
Digital Equipment Corp. Jeff Chu
High Design Technology (Razvan Ene)
HyperLynx Kellee Crisafulli, Steve Kaufer, Matthew Flora*
INCASES Olaf Rethmeier*, Werner Rissiek
Intel Corporation Stephen Peters*, Arpad Muranyi, Henry Maramis,
Will Hobbs, Frank Kern*
Interconnectix Bob Ross*
Mitsubushi Tam Cao, Hoang Nguyen
Motorola [Ahmed Omer], Michael Desiderio, Paul Bolden,
Tom Myers, Rob Wenzel
National Semiconductor Syed Huq*, Cheng-Yang Kao, Mike Bristol,
Peter Laflamme, Kevin Smith
NCR Dave Moxley*, Richard Mellitz
NEC (Hiroshi Matsumoto)
Quantic EMC (Mike Ventham)
Texas Instruments Thomas Fisher
Thomson-CSF/SCTF (Jean LeBrun)
Viewlogic Jon Powell, Chris Rokusek*, Peivand Tehrani
Graham Bell*
VeriBest Ian Dodd*, William Bell, Dave Wien*
VLSI Technology Harish Patel, D.C. Sessions*
OTHER PARTICIPANTS IN 1997:
3M [Fran Hart]
Actel Scott Schlachter
Acuson & Free Model Foundation Richard Munden
Alcatel John Fitzpatrick
Ansoft Eric Bogatin
Apteq Design Systems Dan FitzPatrick
Compaq Weston Beal, Mark Leonard
Dell Computer Dave Baranauskas, Doug Wallace
EIA Patti Rusher*
EMC Fabrizio Zanella
Hewlett Packard, EEsof Karl Kachigan, Henry Wu
Hewlett Packard, France Jean-Christophe Pautrat
Hitachi Saburo Hojo, Yasushi Ogawa
IBM Brad Herrman
Interface Technology Dan Waterloo
Micron Technology Brian Johnson
Molex Gus Panella
North Carolina State U. (Michael Steer)
S3, Inc. Porsh Shih, Sarathy Sribhashyam
Symmetry Andy Hughes
TRW Ray Steele
Ultratest International Charles Im
Zeelan Technology George Opsahl
In the list above, attendees at the meeting are indicated by *. Principal
members or other active members who have not attended are in parentheses.
Participants who no longer are in the organization are in square brackets.
Upcoming Meetings: The bridge numbers for future IBIS teleconferences are as
follows:
Date Bridge Number Reservation # Passcode
September 9 (916) 356-9200 1-178721 5387488
All meetings are 8:00 AM to 9:55 AM Pacific Time. We try to have agendas out
7 days before each Open Forum and meeting minutes out within 7 days after.
When you call into the meeting, ask for the IBIS Open Forum hosted by Will
Hobbs and give the reservation number and passcode.
NOTE: "AR" = Action Required.
-------------------------------- MINUTES -------------------------------------
INTRODUCTIONS AND MEETING QUORUM
The following new participants introduced themselves:
Raj Raghuram is taking over the Applied Simulation Technology representation.
While most of his involvement has been at his current company, he has also
been involved with Syed Huq at National Semiconductor doing IBIS model
development.
Graham Bell from Viewlogic, Fremont, CA is interested in the modeling problem
for marketing support for some of Viewlogic's signal integrity products.
Dave Wien of Veribest is involved in marketing their signal integrity
products and related IBIS issues.
MEMBERSHIP UPDATE AND TREASURER'S REPORT
Patti Rusher did not have a current membership or treasurer's report. (The
last report was $5,272.) Bob Ross and Patti had carried out an off line
discussion concerning budget and membership status, but the questions still
need to be resolved.
REVIEW OF MINUTES AND AR'S
Matthew Flora's written name was corrected from Matt Flora, although he goes
by both Matt or Matthew in conversation. Patti Rusher's name was corrected
from Pattie in a few locations.
Stephen Peters reviewed the AR's. D.C Sessions has completed his AR
(explaining the best way to modify a SPICE transistor model to get realistic
power and ground clamp curves) and Bob Ross has supplied both his text
examples for the cookbook. The major outstanding A/Rs are examples for the
Cookbook and BIRDs and will be carried forward.
MISCELLANY/ANNOUNCEMENTS
Bob Ross announced that he will use one of the accepted aliases "eda.org"
in place of "vhdl.org" as the site location for IBIS documents and mailing
addresses. This nomenclature is more representative of the EIA/IBIS Open
Forum since IBIS has no technical association with VHDL.
D.C. Sessions noted that VLSI Logic annual technical center training will
include a session on IBIS taught by D.C.
PRESS AND WEB PAGE UPDATES
Syed Huq has made some roster updates. Also, a member company plans to submit
a logo for the poster page after going through the authorization steps.
Bob Ross reported that Syed's Open tutorial on "Understanding and Using
IBIS Models for Signal Integrity Analysis" is listed in the High-level
Electronic System Design Conference (HESDC '97) insert that has appeared
in several magazines. It is scheduled October 7-9, 1997 in San Jose, CA.
Bob also noted that the "HyperLynx Upgrades HyperSuite" in EE Times, p. 63,
August 25, 1997 mentions IBIS.
Bob noted that the final column in Howard Johnson's Straight Talk for Serious
Digital Designers titled "The Real Truth About Crosstalk" in Electronic
Design, August 18, 1997, pg. 115, mentions IBIS at the end.
Finally, Bob noted that two references to IBIS exist in the September, 1997
issue of Printed Circuit Design. The IBIS Version 3.0 press release is
given on page 9, and Shelly Nielsen's writeup on the PCB Design Conference
East, in Boston, September 15-19, 1997, references Bob's course on "Practical
Issues with IBIS Models".
NEW MODELS AVAILABLE, LIBRARY UPDATE
D.C. Sessions states that VLSI Technology has pulled their IBIS models from
their web page. He had written on the reflector that they represented
obsolete products and that they are discussing how to deal with future IBIS
models (whether by Web site or by CD ROM). He also indicated later that
some new features of IBIS Version 3.0 would have been useful even for these
models. He will make available IBIS model with new features for testing.
Bob Ross noted that IBM Microelectronics is offering downloadable IBIS models
to registered users at:
http://www.cips.ibm.com/products/memory/selguide/modelmenu.html
Jon Powell has updated the EIA/IBIS Web page models section with the above
changes.
Syed reported that National has placed two new SuperI/O IBIS models on their
Web page.
OPENS FOR NEW ISSUES
Matthew Flora on reporting ibischk2+ problems
Dave Wien on s2ibis for NT status
INTERNATIONAL PROGRESS
- 93/46/NP (IBIS Version 2.1) - Patti Rusher reported that the US Technical
Advisorary Group (TAG) is tracing the documentation associated with this
effort. Patti expects more details after the Tokyo IEC meeting in
September, 1997 concerning the status and response to 93/46/NP.
- 93/60/NP (IBIS Models and EMC Simulation) - Patti reported that the US TAG
has conditionally voted yes, pending a better definition of the scope of
this effort. She should have more information after the Tokyo IEC meeting.
- EIAJ III (I/O Interface Model for ICs) - Patti reports that this proposal
has been forwarded to the WG3. The EIAJ subcommittee has been invited to
give at presentation at an industrial forum at the IEC meeting.
EAST COAST IBIS USERS GROUP
Bob Ross reported that Dr. Ed Sayre of North East Systems Associates (NESA)
has set up an East Coast IBIS Users meeting in Stow, Massachusetts on
Thursday, September 18, 1997 from 2 p.m. onward. Ed expects about 25 people
at the initial meeting. Information has been posted on the ibis-users
reflector. More details are expected to be posted soon. The agenda of this
first meeting will also cover organizational details. In addition, Ed expects
to have several presentations. Bob also noted that he is having some very
preliminary discussion separately on a possible IBIS meeting associated with
EuroDAC in France in February, 1998.
S2IBIS FOR NT
Dave Wiens plans to post the improved s2ibis_ver1.3 for NT on the VeriBest
Web site where links already exist from the EIA/IBIS Web page and other sites.
Work still exists to create the latest s2ibis2_ver2.1 files. Bob Ross
did not want the earlier version posted since there have been several
significant changes, even though, according to Ian Dodd, the number of file
differences are small. So partial compliance with the AR is expected soon.
AR - Ian Dodd put s2ibis_ver1.3 and s2ibis_ver2.1 for Windows on the VeriBest
Web site.
EDITING COMMITTEE
Stephen Peters reported that he and Bob Ross met to go over some issues. They
developed an outline for sectioning the document. The outline included an
introduction section which will give more scope and detail. Also after review
Stephen and Bob agreed to some of the terms proposed by Ogawa-san of the
EIAJ subcommittee. Some additional detail to clarify "required" keywords
was discussed since they provide only a minimal set. Some non-required
keywords are really technically required if they are applicable. Perhaps a
table will be added for this as in the Cookbook.
Bob and Stephan still plan a first pass to be put in the work in progress
directory (wip).
The existing ARs are still in effect.
AR - Bob Ross generate and post a BNF for IBIS Version 3.0 (and IBIS Version
3.0 ratification AR).
AR - Stephen Peters and Bob Ross generate an editorial revision of Version 3.0
and place it in the eda.org/pub/ibis/wip directory.
BIRD44 - INTERPRETATION OF MIN/MAX/WEAK/STRONG DATA
Per the discussion of last meeting, Bob Ross has moved BIRD44 discussion into
the Editing Committee Area since BIRD44 relates to an editorial issue. It
proposes changing the min and max column headings to weak and strong, where
applicable under the [Model] keyword. BIRD44 will be considered more closely
at a later time as part of the the Version 3.0 editorial activity.
VERSION 2.1 PARSER (& S2IBIS) BUG REPORTING
Matthew Flora opened the discussion on this new item. He has discovered some
bugs with the existing ibischk2+ code and wanted to know how to report them.
One bug was that a [Pullup] or [Pulldown] table with no data was not flagged,
and another involved a crash after a keyword was positioned after the [End]
statement.
Matthew is aware of the /pub/ibis/bugs directory under eda.org where ibischk
bug information and a report form is stored and is also aware of the email
address ibischk-bug@eda.org. His major concern is that the process is not
documented on from the EIA/IBIS Web site or as a Frequently Asked Question
(FAQ). D.C. Sessions suggested an FTP site where bug test could be sent.
They could be used for subsequent testing. After some discussion, Matthew
will work with Syed Huq concerning providing process information.
AR - Matthew Flora work with Syed Huq regarding generating an FAQ and also
an informative link from the EIA/IBIS Open Forum Web page on how to report
bugs on ibischk parsers.
Chris Rokusek asked whether a help switch could be added to the ibischk2+
parser that would generate a bug report form. The consensus was that this
would be a good idea. Chris also noted that the nomenclature should have
been version 2.114 rather than 2.14. Bob Ross stated that if changes are
made, the parser should be nomenclated as 2.115. Bob also noted that anyone
who has purchased the source code license for ibischk2 can get the source
code for these newer versions.
Syed confirmed that ibischk2+ provides its version number, in response to
a question by Matthew.
The question arose where to report s2ibis bugs. They are to be handled by
the EIA/IBIS Open Forum, rather than by NCSU. After some discussion Bob
agreed to create a bug form and set up another directory for s2ibis bugs.
AR - Bob Ross set up a bug directory for s2ibis bugs, and create a bug form.
Bob will also work out a bug reporting process.
VERSION 3.1 PARSER
Bob Ross reported that one bid has come in and we are waiting for others.
Bob also noted that in the past the source code licenses cost $500 each for
ibis_chk and ibischk2. This covered the contracted development cost with
some margin since several purchases were made after the code had been
developed. Over 20 companies have paid for licenses for ibischk2. The
benefit for many companies is simply to help the development expense for
the common benefit of all and also to get an early view as the code is
being developed. In some cases, they can perform early checks for IBIS models
under development with the newer features before the official parser is
considered complete and is released.
The bids are expected to be higher than in the past. In anticipation of this
Bob wanted to get a sense of how much companies are willing to pay to share
the cost of ibischk3. Bob was probing the $2000 to $5000 range for each
company (with the expectation that fewer companies would join in to license
the source code.) If you are interested in licensing the source code, please
respond privately to Bob Ross regarding about how much you would be willing
pay to share the ibischk3 development expense. (Bob will also phone around to
get a sense of commitment level.) Based on some preliminary discussion,
the $2,000 to @2,500 range seemed tolerable. Bob indicated that a payment
commitment that covers the total cost will be needed before we can accept
any bid.
Bob also raised the idea that individual companies such as Interconnectix
may consider using internal staff to develop such a parser. Other companies
that might consider this include Hyperlynx, Viewlogic, VeriBest and Cadence,
since they already have IBIS experience and need such a parser. Consistent
with the existing licensing policy, some fee would be set for licensing the
source code. With this arrangement, the company could get at least partial
compensation for the internal effort. Bob's main question was if anyone
objected to pursuing this option. No objections were raised.
Chris Rokusek commented that if a company did the development, they would
have to maintain the code indefinitely. Bob commented that after the
parser is released and accepted the company could expect to be compensated
for additional work, especially if it involved a lot of effort. We have
paid for additional work for ibischk2 fixes (and enhancements) in the past.
Ian Dodd commented that some of the Version 3.0 enhancements are very easy
to add. Others, such as series switches, are difficult to understand
and therefore may be costly to include. Bob stated that this is one of the
major benefits of developing the ibischk3 parser - discover and resolve the
ambiguous areas of IBIS Version 3.0. This has worked well in the past
leading to IBIS Version 1.1 and IBIS Version 2.1 documents.
Bob asked Chris to join him, Jon Powell, Syed Huq and Stephen Peters on the
ibischk3 proposal review committee.
LEGAL IBIS VERSION 3.0 FILES
Bob Ross reported that some "legal" concerns were raised at the last meeting
regarding issuing IBIS Version 3.0 that have not been validated using the
non-existent ibischk3 parser. Jon Powell initiated some further discussion
on the ibis reflector, without resolution. Stephen Peters felt that the
IBIS model should be corrupted in some manner (issued as a .txt file or
have the [IBIS Ver] designation "preliminary" so that the earlier releases
would be guaranteed to fail ibischk3) until formally checked. Bob felt that
some method was needed, but that the existing comments and disclaimer methods
and [File Rev] control were sufficient without introducing corruption. There
is now a "chicken and egg" situation where companies are now including IBIS
Version 3.0 features that require uncorrupted IBIS Version 3.0 models. The
user could introduce error while undoing the corruption.
Bob also stated that "legal" was not a good term since it implies
compliance to a (copyright) law, whereas he understood the intended meaning
to be "in (legal) compliance with the documented IBIS Version 3.0 syntax.
Stephen suggested that the committee take a position on this, and Bob
suggested a general statement that we can all agree to - while each company
will decide their own IBIS model release policy with IBIS Version 3.0
features, we strongly suggest that the models be clearly documented at the
top with the statement that it is released without having been checked with
the (to be developed) ibischk3 syntax checker and is therefore subject to
error. A subsequent release of the model when the ibischk3 checker is
available may contain syntactical corrections.
COOKBOOK
Stephen Peters reported that D.C. Sessions and Bob Ross have provided him
write ups and an example per ARs. D.C. provided the writeup on getting
realistic clamping information, and Bob provided a section on diode transit
time and a series switch example. Other AR's remain in effect.
Stephen will make some additions and work with Bob to put the cookbook into
the work in progress directory (/pub/ibis/wip) in eda.org. The document
Version Number will be used to document new version. After some discussion
and reviewing what we agreed to at the last meeting, Syed Huq will provide
a link from the official EIA/IBIS Web page to this document. He will include
the appropriate warnings that the Cookbook is just a preliminary version that
will undergo revision. The Version Number of any Cookbook document needs
to be checked with the posted document to assure that the latest Cookbook
Document is being used.
AR - The following people have volunteered to supply examples
Steve Kaufer/Hyperlynx -- Example 1 (Version 1.1 basic model)
Arpad Muranyi - Example 2
Stephen Peters - Example 3
AR - Syed Huq. Review and expand (if necessary) Section 3.3. on "Obtaining
I/V and Switching Information via Lab Measurement".
AR - Stephen Peters with Bob Ross put a copy of the Cookbook in the
eda.org/pub/ibis/wip directory after appropriate Version Number and
preliminary disclaimers are added.
AR - Syed Huq provide a link to access the Cookbook document from the official
EIA/IBIS Web Site after the Cookbook is uploaded.
BIRD42.3 - MODELING CURRENT WAVEFORMS
D.C. Sessions has not gotten together with C. Kumar regarding some technical
discussion on where rising and falling waveform table do not produce the
correct response. Instead, D.C. plans to put the discussion on the IBIS
reflector. So the AR now reflects this change.
AR - D.C. Sessions provide an example on the IBIS reflector showing
where the rising and falling waveform tables do not result in correct
results [Done].
SWITCHING TERMINATORS
No Report.
MISCELLANEOUS DISCUSSION
Frank Kern asked if CAE Vendors are adding Version 3.0 features. Bob Ross
and Dave Wien responded that Interconnectix and VeriBest will have some
IBIS Version 3.0 features in their next releases.
Bob then asked what the semiconductor vendors view as the most important
IBIS Version 3.0 features for inclusion by CAE Vendors. A similar discussion
occurred during the Version 2.1 development and helped CAE Vendors prioritize
their development activities. This discussion will be added to next
meetings agenda.
D.C. Sessions indicated that VLSI really requires the buffer selection
addition [Model Selector]. Even older IBIS models needed this. Frank Kern
suggested that this be a discussion topic at the next meeting since he needs
to research this question. Syed Huq wanted all of the features since he felt
that excluding any feature gave permission for CAE Vendors never to implement
it. From a user's perspective, Dave Moxley did not have any specific need
beyond Version 2.1. However, he could use series switches if its
implementation is realistic and not too cumbersome.
NEXT MEETING:
The next meeting is on Friday, September 26, 1997, 8:00 A.M. to 9:55 A.M.
==============================================================================
NOTES
IBIS CHAIR: Bob Ross (503) 603-2523, Fax (503) 639-3469
bob@icx.com
Modeling Engineer, Interconnectix
10220 SW Nimbus Ave, K4, Portland, OR 97223
VICE CHAIR: Syed Huq (408) 721-4874, Fax: (408) 721-4785
huq@rockie.nsc.com
Staff Applications Engineer, National Semiconductor, M/S A-2595
2900 Semiconductor Drive, Santa Clara, CA 95052
SECRETARY: Stephen Peters (503) 264-4108, Fax: (503) 264-4515
sjpeters@ichips.intel.com
Senior Hardware Engineer, Intel Corporation
M/S JF1-56
2111 NE 25th Ave.
Hillsboro, Oregon 97124-5961
LIBRARIAN: Jon Powell (805) 988-8250, Fax: (805) 988-8259
jonp@qdt.com
Senior Scientist, Viewlogic (formerly Quad Design)
1385 Del Norte Rd., Camarillo, CA 93010
This meeting was conducted in accordance with the EIA Legal Guides and EIA
Manual of Organization and Procedure.
The following e-mail addresses are used:
ibis-request@eda.org
To join, change, or drop from either the IBIS Open Forum Reflector
(ibis@eda.org), the IBIS Users' Group Reflector (ibis-users@eda.org)
or both. State your request.
ibis-info@eda.org
To obtain general information about IBIS, to ask specific questions
for individual response, and to inquire about joining the EIA-IBIS
Open Forum as a full Member.
ibis@eda.org
To send a message to the general IBIS Open Forum Reflector. This
is used mostly for IBIS Standardization business and future IBIS
technical enhancements. Job posting information is not permitted.
ibis-users@eda.org
To send a message to the IBIS Users' Group Reflector. This is
used mostly for IBIS clarification, current modeling issues, and
general user concerns. Job posting information is not permitted.
ibischk-bug@eda.org
To report ibischk2 parser bugs. The Bug Report Form Resides on
eda.org in /pub/ibis/bugs/bugform.txt along with reported bugs.
Information on IBIS technical contents, IBIS participants, and actual
IBIS models are available on the IBIS Home page found by selecting the
Electronic Information Group under:
Check the pub/ibis directory on eda.org for more information on previous
discussions and results. You can get on via FTP anonymous.
"IBIS Spoken Here" placards are available from Jon Powell (jonp@qdt.com) for
use at trade shows.
==============================================================================
Received on Tue Sep 9 09:22:46 1997
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Fri Jun 03 2011 - 09:52:29 PDT